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Homura Akemi vs Kagutsuchi
- Thread starter Sir_Ovens
- Start date
- Status
Stomp? Definitely no. They're very similary in durability and some other aspects. In fact Homura has the abilities to take him down or alteast to control him (mind manipulation, conceptual manipulation, power drain, they all can counter mid-godly Regenerationn). He doesn't (Root of evil? Not a one-shot anyway). So Homura takes this with mid difficulty even if he's in "truest form".
Even if she's compared mostly to Madoka, she's much better 2-A fighter. Also that's wrong Homura on your pic, people can be confused.
Even if she's compared mostly to Madoka, she's much better 2-A fighter. Also that's wrong Homura on your pic, people can be confused.
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Homura seems to have a way to deal with more or less all of his defensive hax, since Madoka is also an omnipresent conceptual being with type 8 immortality, and mid-godly regen doesn't block mind hax, power drain, and conceptual manip (albeit this depends from how good the mid-godly regen is).
The same could be said for the opposite though, considering that Soul and Matter manip are the only powers that would be useless against Homura (assuming that the mind manipulation does works against people on his level). So i don't know.
Why speed equalized tho? They have the same kind of omnipresence anyway if Kyubey isn't around (And even then, the difference would be a mere city-sized zone)
The same could be said for the opposite though, considering that Soul and Matter manip are the only powers that would be useless against Homura (assuming that the mind manipulation does works against people on his level). So i don't know.
Why speed equalized tho? They have the same kind of omnipresence anyway if Kyubey isn't around (And even then, the difference would be a mere city-sized zone)
Wow, calm down. Atleast 2-A vs 2-A and inconclusive with someone else don't mean anything. Lucifer and Homura are both abstract or conceptual beings. Lucifer doesn't have conceptual manipulation, Homura has. So who would win? It's like 2+2.Kaltias said:>Lucifer and Homura
>Very similar in durability
Just no. Try this if you want something fair, and at least it would be decisive for the one who wins. Demi-Fiend stomps too.
This guy has an inconclusive with Reigitize Lucemon of all people ffs.
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Being both abstract and conceptual doesn't mean anything tho.
Homura is equal to Madoka who has a 2-A feat.
Lucifer is stronger than people who stomp people who stomp people who stomp people who stomp people on Homura/Madoka level. Also everyone and their mother in SMT can bypass conceptual immortality (which Homura doesn't have anyway. Madoka does)
Homura is equal to Madoka who has a 2-A feat.
Lucifer is stronger than people who stomp people who stomp people who stomp people who stomp people on Homura/Madoka level. Also everyone and their mother in SMT can bypass conceptual immortality (which Homura doesn't have anyway. Madoka does)
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I don't think they are OHK. I think they just ignore durability/resistances
Which sounds like a OHK, but they have a set amount of damage they can do in game. Not sure how that applies here.
Which sounds like a OHK, but they have a set amount of damage they can do in game. Not sure how that applies here.
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Like I said in the other thread involving Kagutsuchi... He's the single thing 2-A in SMT that is not the lowest they have but is not ridiculously overpowered even for the usual standards. He's pretty haxxed, yes, but still way more feasible than any of those who use it as stepping stone in the verse.
Almighty attacks are durability negation.
They can't be resisted, absorbed, not even reflected so they will always do the full damage they're supposed to do on hit, but no, they're not OHKs.
I think Homura eventually wins this via Power Drain and maybe - Maybe - Memory Manip combo that has a feat of working on 2-A, unless I'm ignoring some stuff about Kagutsuchi. Also it wouldn't be the first time Homura rearranges the whole Multiverse so that takes care of Amala Network stuff.
Almighty attacks are durability negation.
They can't be resisted, absorbed, not even reflected so they will always do the full damage they're supposed to do on hit, but no, they're not OHKs.
I think Homura eventually wins this via Power Drain and maybe - Maybe - Memory Manip combo that has a feat of working on 2-A, unless I'm ignoring some stuff about Kagutsuchi. Also it wouldn't be the first time Homura rearranges the whole Multiverse so that takes care of Amala Network stuff.
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I am not well-VERSED in shin megami tesnei verse so correct me if i misinterpreted something.
i will now divide the abilities of the contestants in 2 categories..the ones that can have an effect on the battle and the ones that do not based on the tier(i will talk about countering later) i start with the latter:
KAGUTSUCHI : Superhuman characteristics, flight/leviation , telepathy , elemental manipulation , shapeshifting , size-shifting , healing/Resurrection , telekinisis , immortality type 1 /4 , energy manipulation
THE GIRL WHO DID NOTHING WRONG a.k.a HOMURA AKEMI : superhuman physical characteristics , human weapons stuff , immortality type 2 , flight ,telepathy ,telekinisis , magical arrows , forcefields , angel wings ( i doubt that she still can use them) , black wings of corrosion , pressure point strikes , golf club ( although kagutsuchi vaguely reminds me of a giant golf ball..hmm)
Now for the things that CAN (And not WILL ) matter :
KAGUTSUCHI : non-corporeality , reality warping , immortality type 8 and 3 , Regenerationn(mid-godly) , spatial manipulation , life and death manipulation , mind and soul manipulation , Dekunda ,Dekatja, vast light/infinite light and time manipulation
LIZARD GIRL : aqausality , time paradox resistace , time manipulation , resistance to mind manipulation ,memory manipulation , high resistance to soul manipulation , power drain , pocket reality manipulation/creation , corporeal manipulation , reality warping ,dimmensional manipulation
note #1 : speed and intellects are same so i will not take them to account..
lets now narrow down the abilities by taking into consideration countering :the sames
1) reality warping exists on both sides so its out
2) the same goes for time manipulation
3) spatial manipulation is useless... homura is not affected by changes in the physical world
4)life and death manipulation is also down due to aqausality and omnipresence ( i think...)
5)i can not find a use for Dekunda/Dekatja as they must be activated after the debuff/buff has been aplied..if himura memory manipulates him for examply he will not even know how to perform it
6) non corporeality along with immortality type 8 are gone as well due to homuras conceptual manipulation
7)the sames goes to amala network..although to be honest i do not know exactly what this think is but propably homura can take care of it with dimmensional and conceptual manipulation
note#2 : mind and soul manipulation are out for kagutsuchi if he hasent applied them to an entity of homuras caliber
To conclude : while the only true threat to homura is vast/infinite light kagutsuchi is susceptible to most of her abilities including her memory manipulation power drain combo...and yea ..conceptual manipulation is a real pain not only for kagutsuchi but for the whole tier in general.
so if it isnt clear already i vote Homura due to versatility and ability to counter most of his moves
i also consider it an easy match for her (but not a stomp)
edit#1: i forgot about the direct hit with a giant golf club that homura can definatly
use(after she trap him to her pocket reality of course !)
i will now divide the abilities of the contestants in 2 categories..the ones that can have an effect on the battle and the ones that do not based on the tier(i will talk about countering later) i start with the latter:
KAGUTSUCHI : Superhuman characteristics, flight/leviation , telepathy , elemental manipulation , shapeshifting , size-shifting , healing/Resurrection , telekinisis , immortality type 1 /4 , energy manipulation
THE GIRL WHO DID NOTHING WRONG a.k.a HOMURA AKEMI : superhuman physical characteristics , human weapons stuff , immortality type 2 , flight ,telepathy ,telekinisis , magical arrows , forcefields , angel wings ( i doubt that she still can use them) , black wings of corrosion , pressure point strikes , golf club ( although kagutsuchi vaguely reminds me of a giant golf ball..hmm)
Now for the things that CAN (And not WILL ) matter :
KAGUTSUCHI : non-corporeality , reality warping , immortality type 8 and 3 , Regenerationn(mid-godly) , spatial manipulation , life and death manipulation , mind and soul manipulation , Dekunda ,Dekatja, vast light/infinite light and time manipulation
LIZARD GIRL : aqausality , time paradox resistace , time manipulation , resistance to mind manipulation ,memory manipulation , high resistance to soul manipulation , power drain , pocket reality manipulation/creation , corporeal manipulation , reality warping ,dimmensional manipulation
note #1 : speed and intellects are same so i will not take them to account..
lets now narrow down the abilities by taking into consideration countering :the sames
1) reality warping exists on both sides so its out
2) the same goes for time manipulation
3) spatial manipulation is useless... homura is not affected by changes in the physical world
4)life and death manipulation is also down due to aqausality and omnipresence ( i think...)
5)i can not find a use for Dekunda/Dekatja as they must be activated after the debuff/buff has been aplied..if himura memory manipulates him for examply he will not even know how to perform it
6) non corporeality along with immortality type 8 are gone as well due to homuras conceptual manipulation
7)the sames goes to amala network..although to be honest i do not know exactly what this think is but propably homura can take care of it with dimmensional and conceptual manipulation
note#2 : mind and soul manipulation are out for kagutsuchi if he hasent applied them to an entity of homuras caliber
To conclude : while the only true threat to homura is vast/infinite light kagutsuchi is susceptible to most of her abilities including her memory manipulation power drain combo...and yea ..conceptual manipulation is a real pain not only for kagutsuchi but for the whole tier in general.
so if it isnt clear already i vote Homura due to versatility and ability to counter most of his moves
i also consider it an easy match for her (but not a stomp)
edit#1: i forgot about the direct hit with a giant golf club that homura can definatly
use(after she trap him to her pocket reality of course !)
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Kagutsuchi, and a few party members like Dante.Sir Ovens said:
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I'm really tired to explain and don't have a good english for it, but Homura and Madoka are 3(or 4, not sure by myself) spatial and 2 temporal dimension beings which makes them 2+3=5D or high 2-A tier. 4D beings are only their avatars in real world. People just don't understand what are dimensions and how they work, or didn't understand the show and how their god forms work.
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Wat.
Where was it stated that they had 3/4 spacial dimensions and 2 temporal?
Where was it stated that they had 3/4 spacial dimensions and 2 temporal?
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Operating under a higher dimension of time =/= being 5-D
Humans see things by the 4th dimension of time, but we are not 4-D beings.
Madoka and Homura might see things from a 5th dimension of hypertime, but they aren't 5-D
And being a conceptual being =/= higher-dimensional
And I'm pretty sure their avatars are 3-D. Just look at Madokami coming to take Homura in rebellion. Its their true selves that are 4-D
Humans see things by the 4th dimension of time, but we are not 4-D beings.
Madoka and Homura might see things from a 5th dimension of hypertime, but they aren't 5-D
And being a conceptual being =/= higher-dimensional
And I'm pretty sure their avatars are 3-D. Just look at Madokami coming to take Homura in rebellion. Its their true selves that are 4-D
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A random comment passing through...
Whoosh
Whoosh
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While I'm still going for Homura, I feel obligated to say as someone that knows both verses that Homura is actually High ~ Mid diffing this fight. SMT hax is pretty combat oriented stuff.Chaospaladin15 said:
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He also has no hax.Kaltias said:
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Monarch Laciel said:
Agree it's not clear with Madokami, but look at Homura. Her devil form created alteast one more multiversal let's call it "witch" dimension where she was sitting and wasn't visible for any humans near her. So it's already 4D + being unbounded to time is counted as 1 temporal dimension which makes her 5D. Same as Madokami with her "law of cycles" dimension, it wasn't directly shown in a show, but it clearly exists.
of course it wouldn't be stated like "hey, I'm 5th dimensional being"SomebodyData said:
it's not DC universe
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This seems to be making a lot of assumptions based on abstract imagery.Nsmch said:
And I'm pretty sure Homura only made one universe. Her 2-A comes from stealing Madoka's power.
And making another multiverse doesn't mean she created another dimension. You are thinking of the term "dimension" as in "universe" like Marvel's dark dimension, rather than thinking it of an extra way to move/measure something.
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This seems to be making a lot of assumptions based on abstract imagery.
And I'm pretty sure Homura only made one universe. Her 2-A comes from stealing Madoka's power.
And making another multiverse doesn't mean she created another dimension. You are thinking of the term "dimension" as in "universe" like Marvel's dark dimension, rather than thinking it of an extra way to move/measure something.
I'm not even talking about it and it doesn't really matter who stole powers or not ><
I'm talking about dimensions, not universes.
I give up, there is no hope
And I'm pretty sure Homura only made one universe. Her 2-A comes from stealing Madoka's power.
And making another multiverse doesn't mean she created another dimension. You are thinking of the term "dimension" as in "universe" like Marvel's dark dimension, rather than thinking it of an extra way to move/measure something.
I'm not even talking about it and it doesn't really matter who stole powers or not ><
I'm talking about dimensions, not universes.
I give up, there is no hope
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When you say witch dimension, are you referring to the part in the epilogue where Homura is sitting at a table and no humans can see her sitting there?
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It kinda is
There is nowhere near enough evidence to say that's a higher dimension. It could just as easily be another plane of existence, and I'll quote the Outerverse page here
"A transcendent reality such as a mental or spiritual realm are not to be considered as synonomous with the outerverse term. These realms are likely "side-by-side" with any dimensional reality still existing within dimensional space, just not within its normal space. Simply put, there can be transcendent realms of space and time, but these are by no means outerverses unless explicity shown to be indescribably beyond any dimensional structure"
Or she might just be making herself invisible to normal people. That's hardly impossible either
It's too much of a stretch to say that just because normal people can't see her, she is standing in some Umineko meta-world. Umineko makes it very clear they are in a higher dimensional space.
Here it's just Homura sitting at a table, and people around her can't see her. Nothing says it's higher dimensional
There is nowhere near enough evidence to say that's a higher dimension. It could just as easily be another plane of existence, and I'll quote the Outerverse page here
"A transcendent reality such as a mental or spiritual realm are not to be considered as synonomous with the outerverse term. These realms are likely "side-by-side" with any dimensional reality still existing within dimensional space, just not within its normal space. Simply put, there can be transcendent realms of space and time, but these are by no means outerverses unless explicity shown to be indescribably beyond any dimensional structure"
Or she might just be making herself invisible to normal people. That's hardly impossible either
It's too much of a stretch to say that just because normal people can't see her, she is standing in some Umineko meta-world. Umineko makes it very clear they are in a higher dimensional space.
Here it's just Homura sitting at a table, and people around her can't see her. Nothing says it's higher dimensional
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If it was another plane of existance, it would be another plane of existance, but you can see that Homura is clearly "above" everyone else there.Monarch Laciel said:
Same as Madoka with her law of cycles.
Same as incubators, they are 4D beings too, but they they are bounded to time, so they aren't 5D.
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Incubators definitely aren't 4D
She's invisible to them, and if you want to argue that she's "above" them, its because they are all 3D people and she's 4D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufpmAQ7rtC8
This is the scene we are talking about, correct? Could you look at it and tell me at which points the higher dimensional nature of the area is shown?
She's invisible to them, and if you want to argue that she's "above" them, its because they are all 3D people and she's 4D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufpmAQ7rtC8
This is the scene we are talking about, correct? Could you look at it and tell me at which points the higher dimensional nature of the area is shown?
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Incubators are so 4D that Homura can shot them down with a gun. Guess this makes everyone at least Low 2-C. They have technology that can affect 4D beings like Madoka, but that's it.
Also maybe she is just mindscrewing everyone again. Not like it's something new.
Also maybe she is just mindscrewing everyone again. Not like it's something new.
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It's not invisibility same as Madokami from law of cycles is not just "invisible" to everyone else. And incubator who was materealizing from nothing in original show wasn't just invisible too. Yeah, I agree there is no real proof that they aren't "just invisible", but I thought it was pretty obvious. And as I said no point for me to argue anymore because it's all about who really wants to be right at all cost.Monarch Laciel said:
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It's not about "who wants to be right at all costs"
It's about "what makes the most sense", i.e. "what takes the least amount of assumptions".
You are assuming that Homura not being seen by a bunch of people makes her higher dimensional. That's such a huge assumption I can't even begin to describe it. Its a massive leap in logic. It's probably a non-sequitor or assosciation fallacy.
It takes so much less assumption if we just assume Homura was doing some mind-haxxy illusion reality warping stuff.
It's about "what makes the most sense", i.e. "what takes the least amount of assumptions".
You are assuming that Homura not being seen by a bunch of people makes her higher dimensional. That's such a huge assumption I can't even begin to describe it. Its a massive leap in logic. It's probably a non-sequitor or assosciation fallacy.
It takes so much less assumption if we just assume Homura was doing some mind-haxxy illusion reality warping stuff.
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Kaltias said:
1)In fact literally nothing that Homura did to incubator was really affecting him before she turned into devil. If you mean time stop, then I already said, time is absolutely different dimension in this case.
2)I don't understand how balancing entropy is related to their power. Being 4D doesn't mean you have to be omnipotent. Number of dimensions doesn't affect anyone's abilities.
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1)Nsmch said:
https://68.media.tumblr.com/9ee25c949b0de1212b40e5fa0cca9aa8/tumblr_mgm6nmX9FY1r91tnoo1_400.gif
Mhmm. Sure looks like she wasn't affecting them. Being able to resurrect does not equal being higher dimensional
2) A 4-D energy source would have infinite 3-D energy, and so entropy would not be a problem because they could simply keep putting more energy back into the universe.
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