Massive Archie Sonic Downgrade

http://ulltraguy.blogspot.com/2016/07/ultraguys-thoughts-and-opinions.html?m=1

A regular at Screwattack posted this extremely well made blog detailing the common inaccuracies that appear when Archie Sonic. Ultra privides a wealth of context to the most commonly cited "feats" Archie Sonic characters perform or scale to, as well as provide a good amount of background on the series as a whole

It would appear everything people openly accepted about Sonic being a multiversal, massively FTL cosmic being simply wasn't true

Thank God.

Following, but still reading. At worst, I'll post my opinion tomorrow. Regardless, bringing this up is appreciated. This might not have gotten light otherwise, and we wouldn't be able to debate it as fact or fiction.

I had a feeling some of the context of the zones and the scaling was off, quarter of the way through, and it looks like many, MANY things were definitely taken out of context and scaled wrong, Mogul stays where he is though, but post-genesis is gonna need quite a bit of edits and changes...

This will be interesting.

I think that he is downplaying, real honesty. It seems awfully similar to those "Saint Seiya is pure Hype" articles back in the day.

I really doubt that if Archie Sonic was that weaker than everyone accepts he is, people would have realized this sooner.

Many of the staff members don't have the time to read this. You should have picked out the main points covered in the excerpt.

Taking a small skim through it, the two major points I can gather are such:

Since Zones can be either Universe-sized or small pocket dimensions, we should logically assume the smallest possible size for the colission between Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles. Then he goes on to say that it isn't even a separate reality, which is ridiculous...

Also, even if it is a small separate reality, the fact that it is completely separate from the main universe and it was completely shattered would give Super Sonic and Knuckles a High 3-A rating.

He also says that because we weren't shown Sonic running through the 100,000 or so Light-Years path, we shouldn't treat it as running but rather teleportation or whatever, even though the page shows Sonic arriving on foot...

Mammoth Mongul or whatever does seem to be a God-Tier character, yes, but the problem is that he has feats of destroying universes and space-time continums and "multi-verse Zones" with ease, and he is powered by Chaos Energy much like the MCs Super Forms.

Also, all of Mammoth Mogul's feats he did after draining Enerjak of his power .

And Super Sonic fought Enerjak, as seem here (I also like that he intends to "crunch time", another evidence of their power).

Chaos Knuckles exists outside of the space-time continuum, in a higher realityhttp://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/5/55/Another.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150211044140.

Also, God Sigma has a 2-A feat .

The blog post mentioned none of this...

And this is just me looking at all the Versus Wiki profiles here...

Stopped reading when he questioned the size of space times which were literally mentioned to parallel theirs.

Yeah he goes on and on about "context" yet I am pretty sure the way the narration is hyping up Sonic and Knuckle's clash it wouldn't be a miniscule pocket universe and especially not a "geographical zone" like he even implied it could've been.

He also used the sign being from a goofy era of Archie as reason to suspect it not really being 140,000 lightyears. I never got into the comic side of the Sonic series but this does seem like some downplay.

Not legitimate then. I'm interested in the cosmic interstate and the fact that much slower characters have traversed it. Is there any evidence that they travelled the distance Sonic did?

Also:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/61967/1252490-sonic_2.jpg

"Bending time and space"

"The walls containing the zone's reality begin warping widly!"

> Claims that it is a geographical Zone.

Top kek.

@Matt to be fair he did say that line is what prevented him from saying it's a geographical zone. However then again there are clearly more things than that line that indicate it isn't a geographical zone.

I read the first half and I agree with Ryu and Matt. Just seems like downplay with the guise of "debunking", looking for every possible excuse as to why a feat may not be valid.

Aren't Scourge and Blaze somewhat comparable to Sonic's speed anyway? And saying the distance isn't lightyears cause he can't clearly see the word "lightyears" on the sign another instance seems to REALLY be grasping at straws.

Plus like Mighty said does this guy have proof they traveled the same distance Sonic did? For a guy who calls everything and anything regarding high feats presumptious that was quite the assumption on his end.

I have little knowledge on Archie Sonic but I'm friends with guys who were really into it back in the day. From what I recall, Scourge could fight evenly with Sonic and Shadow.

Also, the narration says that Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles' speed is immeasurable, so there's that.

Scourge is just a alternate universe version of Sonic. He used to be called anti Sonic at which point he looked exactly like him except for the fact he wore a leather jacket and sunglasses. He didn't go by Scourge intil he turned green from a chaos power up.

Another issue is that he himself claims that Zones can be pocket dimensions and that the one Sonic and Knuckles busted was one. Yet at the end of his blog he "leaves us off" with a quote from some guy saying Zones are city sized and that the Sonic and Knuckles feat was City Level. Why is he directly quoting someone who says something completely and utterly different than what he believes?

In my opinion this blog seems too scattered with grasping at straws, downplay like points such as assuming the zones are the smallest possible, that the story being silly means the distance isn't actually 148k lightyears, the sign being blurry means it's no longer that distance. And now he cannot even decide what his actual stance is.

Archie Sonic is an extremely popular series that's well known for its power in the VS debating community. If we're going to considerably downgrade it we'll get some backlash. We are going to need some solid stuff to fight that off and this blog seems like far from that.

But if anyone can find other arguments they think hold some sort of merit then bring them up please.

This seems to be fully concluded. Should we lock it?

Well, I'm locking it.

Reopening this for important reasons. After looking through this, there is a lot of downplay (Super Forms are only planetary via statements), but there are also some things that I believe need to be addressed.

First off, the Quantum Dial feat, after looking back at it, does not seem to be legit. Sonic does not actually counter the force of a MSS black hole, nor does he survive one's creation. The problem here is that this is the entire reason his base form is rated as 4-A, despite the fact that his regular feats are pretty much always significantly below this level, and now this feat doesn't even seem to be of that level, either. This means his base form needs to be changed, but I do not know to what.

Second, after looking back at everything, Super Forms should probably be "At least Low 2-C" instead of "At least 2-C". Yes, I definitely believe SS and HK busting that zone to be legit, but that is the best feat they have on their own. Super Sonic has "stood up" to Enerjak, but never before Enerjak has been weakened, is holding back, or SS has been buffed. Super Sonic "fought" amped Master Mogul, who is "At least 2-C", but while he survived, was still fodder to him. These seem more like justifications for "At least Low 2-C", while guys like Mogul and Enerjak's avatars stay "At least 2-C" or become straight up "2-C".

I'm no longer sure where Chaos Knuckles should go, since he never really mastered his power or merged with the Chaos Force. In fact, Mogul draining his power just made Mogul "At least 2-C", so really, Chaos Knuckles should probably just scale to him, instead.

True Enerjak should remain where he is (albeit being changed from "At least 2-A" to "2-A") for being superior to Aurora and the Ancient Walkers, who exist as the center of the Chaos Force, which exists throughout infinite universes.

I think that's about it.

Against the downgrade for the reasons stated above.

Hey I'm Ultra the who wrote the blog. So firstly I actually didn't really intend to post this here, though a friend of mine liked it and did so last night I believe.

Anyway I'm not trying to downplay exactly. Part of the reason why I made this blog was to open a dialog regarding Archie sonic, becuase I tend to notice people tend to be adverse to talking about him at length.

There are couple of things I'd like to clarify to be honest. For example a couple of these coments are saying the blog is saying things it didn"t actually say(I said sonic and knuckles probably fought in a pocket zone for example) and misinterpreting what I meant. Some of the questions about zones I also mentioned in the what is a zone section( for example that alternate reality zones have there own versions of pockets zones found in mobious prime, tails referring to the zone of silence pocket zone as not being an entirely different demension and examples of pocket zones being made artificially). I'm kind of not at a computer right now, but if the thread can be avoid being locked again I might have time to clarify some points a few hours from now.

That being said this is your guys site. I don't mean to be forceful or rude. I mostly just made this blog as a hobby for my vs debate friends to read.

Ultraguy 9000 said:

snip

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You are not being rude, at all. Also, while I disagree with some of your points, there are others which were quite important to bring up.

Thanks. Yeah im aware some points are more shaky than others but i wanted to write down all my doubts.I sorta regret that now since a lot things I hadn't intended to be the forcuse are now being over analysed. Also thanks for opening the Thread again.

Not a problem.

I believe the concern about the zone Hyper Knuckles and Super Sonic destroyed most likely being a pocket dimension is extremely valid. The evidence in Ultra's blog seems to point towards it definitely being a pocket dimension. If its just a pocket dimension its size is unknown and its unlikely to be the size of our universe.

Er. Ian Flynn already stated in an question & answers session that SGW= multiverse destroyed, and S.Sonic had enough power to revert it, so...


Also, the SGW feat is pre-"reboot". Why the feat is in his pos-"reboot" profile?

Ok so I'm back.

Now personally I don't really have much of an urge to argue anything myself. I felt some of the early archie comics deviated from how the more modern comics portrayed some characters abilities and personally I think the comic interstate tended to be fairly inconsistant and that the tended use of directions that don't make sense for luaghs threw some things in doubt. Though technically saying that's still a subjective decision.

However I am confused about a few feats, particualrly mogul, the ultmiate anihiltor, and the zone feat.

Moguls power has actually ocilated a lot throughout the comic series. It's generally based on if he has chaos emerald or if he's absorbed power from somebody else like Tails or chaos knuckles. He's even been nigh powerless on occasion.

In the whole feat with him destroying a universe he was probably at the highest amount of power he ever was. People are right when they say he reached this power level partially by absorbing chaos knuckles energy,however that wasn't the whole story.

When knuckles died and refused to become part of the chaos force in the afterlife, he caused in imbalance in the said chaos force. This imbalance inadvertanly allowed Mogul to take complete and total control of the chaos force on his own. This was stated by Zonic in STH 149.

http://i.imgur.com/yD0ycjz.jpg

By all accounts Mogul should be stronger than chaos knuckles in this form and in fact was probably the strongest villian in the entire comic. Howeve mogul did not fight super sonic or any other character in this form. He only fought tails who bassically fused with every multiverse version of himself to become a cosmic entity on the same level of power. Tails then took moguls power away before trapping him and pushing a cosmic reset button.

His actual fight with super sonic(wich was actually a team effort with the super forms of Tails and Knuckles) happened back in STH 56, while this other showdown happening in STH 150.

Mogul was also cursed to make bad decisions, so that probably factors in many of his fights as well

http://i.imgur.com/BnRBseF.jpg

and you know I'm just curious about this becuase virtually everyone gets scaled to mogul at his height of power, which was only achieved in this one specific circumstance. However nobody but titan tails actually fougt him.

Another thing the ultimate anihilator. I have scans from the comic encyclopedia pg 134.

http://i.imgur.com/a92OGfi.jpg?1

The machine works by targeting specific bio signitures that need to be programed into the machine.

It pretty much says outright in that scan that the machine was tampered with by snively to work only on robotnik and that Sonic and THE ENITRE PLANET mearly blipped out of existance for a second before returning. Sonic wasn't harmed by the weapon beause he literally couldn't be.

The fact it worked on everybody was also mentioned in Kuckles the echidna 6

http://i.imgur.com/ogyjy8A.jpg

The fact Snively tampered with it in STH 50/SSS 6

http://i.imgur.com/wAxVnnU.jpg

Finally I feel as if people may have skipped the "laying down context" section. There's a scane from STH 169 where Tails pretty much denonces the pocket zone the zone of silence as not being an entriely diffrent demension.

http://i.imgur.com/UiqvcWO.jpg

Ian flynn the current writer of the comics also implied this to be the case in a forum(the second post on that page is considered accurate by him)

http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/vie...sid=5bff3742be5f40a5ab7a4fa9e01d9d2b&start=75

I also mentioned alternate realities have there own versions of pocket demensions found in the prime zone.

http://i.imgur.com/6hV8LtV.jpg

I also mentioned they could be spontanously created or atrifically made with technology.

http://i.imgur.com/MmRQjyA.jpg

Pg 139 of the comic encyclopedia also mentions the existence of pocket zones smaller than the ones that hold entire realities.

http://i.imgur.com/EKs6qrf.jpg?1

My question is what context is there really for the zone of Super sonic vs hyper knuckles being an entire alternate reality, rahter than just a pocket zone?

On a final note I kind of have to ask how much some members actually read here. Several mention only skimming it and some say they stopeed part way through. Several questions brought up were adressed in the blog and it felt like a few either skipped sections I wrote around expecting people to read or didn't read the scans in the blog itself.

I mean to be fair I can be wrong about a few things and I think many some coutner arguments are fairly arguable. But some of the effort feels like it could have been better.

I mentioned the SGW as one of the few things I thought might be arguable. Though frankly I also thought it could be interpreted as Super Sonic bassically using Chaos control to hijack the gensis wave and failing becuase Eggman got in his way and messed with the propeties of the chaos control ball.

Your other points are accurate, excpet by the mogul being the strongest villain in the comic.


The strongest villain is the first enerjak, which was so strong that aurora and the ancient walkers at their peak were unable to kill him.

Also, in the enciclopedia it was said that the first enerjak was so powerful that his power was only limited by his own imagination


But yea, M.mogul with the power of chaos knuckles>> S.Sonic, S.Shadow, turbo tails, etc.

Eh i think that's a bit of a NLF. We also technically don't know much about the first enerjak outside his data file(people can read that here by the way).

http://i.imgur.com/JSEG9yv.jpg?1

Mogul was also strongert than Dimitir enerjak at one point since he absorbed his power during that original super fight in the 50s and Dimitir also felt Chaos knuckles was stronger than him as enerjak in a few comics. Given niether had asceneded into the chaos force at the time, all enerjaks(or at least the avatars he influences) might not be created equal or on par with the original.

It's also more M.Mogul + choas knuckles + the entire Chaos force as well. Absorbing Chaos knuckles power was just a part of the power up.


Actually on that note me writing down exacty what powers each enerjak and chaos knuckles had, was because I was worried people got carried awat with prospective ideas. The data file could even mean just that other enerjaks find new ways to apply there similar powers.

Xolon said:

I believe the concern about the zone Hyper Knuckles and Super Sonic destroyed most likely being a pocket dimension is extremely valid. The evidence in Ultra's blog seems to point towards it definitely being a pocket dimension. If its just a pocket dimension its size is unknown and its unlikely to be the size of our universe.

Click to expand...

That was a point in the blog that really spoke to me as well. One of the common arguments I've seen about the feat was the ambiguity surrounding the zone's size. With context behind it, it would appear that all signs point to it not being universal in size. This is a big deal because of how popular this feat is used to debate Archie Sonic

And while Ultra admits himself that there can be good arguments made for other feats, I think the fact that he did so well imo to disprove other universal+ feats (namely the MM scaling, Ultimate Annihilator, Quantum Dial, etc.) throws doubt on said feats, which as Ultra said cone with their own astericks too and might be explained by other reasons

Metabro said:

(namely the MM scaling, Ultimate Annihilator, Quantum Dial, etc.)

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The Quantum Dial is nowhere near Universal+. If the feat was taken at face value, it is MSS. However, since the feat does not seem legit, and this is literally the only feat of this level used to scale base Sonic and everyone equal to him, I don't know where he should be adjusted to.

I think that Base Sonic should be around city level or something like that.


Base shadow with all his power was only going to destroy a city, like stated in his fight against enerjak. Sonic is around this level.


But for durability he should be higher. He survived a beaten of a fake S.Sonic without any major injury

City at least would probably be reasonable Any opinions on anything else?

I might look at that fight with the fake SS again and give my opinion later.

I disagree. Sonic has only ever shown to fight/be comparable to base Shadow, not when he's without his inhibitor rings.

Yeah I suppose that's true in hindsight. Perhaps try issue 175. Sonic runs across the country in base and slams one of eggmans mechs. Perhaps you could make a calc around his size weight and a an estimate of speed(probably a few SEC's at best). Möbius is a future version of earth and the area seems to be around the US in size. I have scans in the blog you can look at.

That was an attack and sonic took the recoil. So that's something. Not sure how much it will pan out though( just speculating on my part).

Anyway any opinion on my above posts talking about those other feats? The ultimate annihilator is another big base fest you guys list, but the encyclopedia scan alone paints it in a different context. Not to mention the other points.

Hmm well I have some of the scans from that issue in the blog. It's also more like half a country. But I'm sure something could be done with that.