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Xeelee Revision

FanofRPGs

FanofRPGs

VS Battles
Retired
3,363
502
So I collected the books and looked over the Xeelee Sequence cosmology, and I plan on downgrading them given what I have dscovered. Aside for the Monads, who I will elaborate of later, I think that the tier changes won't be too conflicting with the current controversies over the tiering system changes. Anyways, if you want more elaboration, look at my blog:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/FanofRPG's_Xeelee_Sequence_Cosmology_(WIP)

I re-analyzed the cosmology and came to these conclusions:

  • Configuration Space is composed of an uncountably infinite (R) number of configurations of an uncountably infinite number of finitely sized hubble spaces (Like our observable universe). A single universe is 3-A, all the hubble spaces (called domains) are 3-A, and 3-A * R = Low 2-C, and Low 2-C * an R number of configurations = High 2-A
  • The "stupendous" number of dimensions in Xeelee Sequence doesn't refer to the physical quantum dimensionality of the Configuration Space, but to dimensions in a phase space where dimensions refer to the number of associations/correlations, not the number of spatio-temporal dimensions. This is made clear as the cosmology is constantly stated to be 10-spatial dimensional
  • The higher dimensions are compactified, meaning they are a planck length in size and don't apply to higher dimensional tiering
At the moment, the Xeelee are 1-B due to the stupendous number of dimensions quote, however this will downgrade them to High 2-A

I will elaborate more if needed. I plan on elaborating on Monads next, but I will need some input.
 
GloryTheRainWing108 said:
What's a Hubble space?
Click to expand...
Our cosmic bubble/horizon/domain. The observable universe which is 93,000,000,000 light years. Anythign further exceeds the speed of light and causality and are thus separate "domains" which can have differing constants. These are all finite.
 
I agree with your revision, since the Xeelee don't seem to be able to manipulate higher-dimensional space other than the Configuration Space (which cannot be used for tiering).
 
GloryTheRainWing108 said:
I agree with your revision, since the Xeelee don't seem to be able to manipulate higher-dimensional space other than the Configuration Space (which cannot be used for tiering).
Click to expand...
They can manipulate higher dimensional spaces, the problem is they are compactified meaning they do it on too small of a scale to actually mean anything, and even then dimensions have no proof of being higher infinities here, something required in the new tiering revisions. Thanks anyways.

I just hope more people can notice this thread RIP
 
Jockey-1337 said:
But on the other hand, we can say that dimensional tiering doesn't work in Xeeleeverse the way we use for the tiering system.
Click to expand...
Exactly. In Exultant, the Coalition's zero-dimensional projectiles can hurt the Xeelee ships, who have to be at least three-dimensional. So, dimensional tiering does not apply in the Xeelee Sequence.
 
I am asked on Discord why I am not pushing for Low 1-C Xeelee. I will explain:

I am hearing this could lead to Low 1-C Xeelee instead of High 2-A because the mentions of 3 spatial dimensions + time uncompactified for each cosmic domain to get R^4 for each one, then multiply that by R for all the domains, and R again for Configuration Space to get R^6, low 1-C. However Configuration Space IS time. Rather time is an illusion of Configuration Space's existence, so that R multiplier for Configuration Space is the time dimension addition already. Meaning it's R^5 High 2-A
 
Bump

So I also want to add revisions to write up their conventional weaponry. I will write it up in a second.
 
Okay, first off, a Xeelee Multipurpose tool can destroy a star:

"Starbreakers were used. In the confusion and panic, they brushed the Qax sun. It was enough to cause the sun to become unstable — ultimately, to nova.
~ Timelike Infinity; ch.08​
They use weaponized cosmic strings to destroy galaxies. I will calculate it:

Suddenly the plane of the disc loomed up at her—and the nightfighter slid neatly into the notch gouged out of the disc.
"Good navigation, Louise," she said. "Right down the channel."

"Well, it wasn't so hard to hit. The channel is over two thousand light-years wide, and as straight as one of your blowpipes. The channel was cut so recently that the galaxy's rotation hasn't had time to distort it too far—although, in another few hundred thousand years there will be barely a trace of this feature left…"''
~ Ring; ch.27 (Event: Ring)​
So it is 2000 light years according to this, however other scans make it out to have a different size:

"Do you see it, Spinner?" Mark asked. "That is a loop of string nearly a thousand light-years wide."
~ Ring; ch.27 (Event: Ring)​
"It seems crazy," Morrow said. "Who would dare use a thousand-light-year loop of cosmic string as a weapon of war?" Ring; ch.27 (Event: Ring)
Going by this, the diameter of it when looped into a circle is 1000 light years. To get the length of the string, we will need to remember that string length = C = 2¤ÇR, where 2R = D. Since D = 1000 light years, that is C = 1000¤Ç or 3141.59265 light years.

This article discusses cosmic strings:

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Cosmic_strings

According to this, the linear density of one is 1e22 grams per centimeter.

  • If 2000 light years, the string = 1.89210568e40 kilograms
  • If 3141.59265 light years, the string = 2.97211265e40 kilograms
The best part of these numbers is it's remarkably close to what the weight of the strings are described as:

"It's moving toward the galactic core at over half the speed of light. It's got the mass of a hundred billion stars… Can you believe that? It's as massive as a medium-size galaxy itself. No wonder it's cutting this swathe through the stars; the damn thing's like a scythe, driving across the face of this galaxy."
~ Ring; ch.27 (Event: Ring)​
Being a hundred billion times the mass of the sun yields around 1.99e40 kilograms, very close to the actual numbers I got. This statement is furthermore useful as it gives me the kinetic energy of "moving toward the galactic core at over half the speed of light." So for this, I will assume 0.5c as a low end, 0.7c as a mid-end, and 0.9c as a high end.

  • Assuming the string is 2000 light years in size:
    • Low End (0.5c): 2.63074419e56 joules or 2.63074419 terafoe
    • Mid End (0.7c): 6.80692205e56 joules or 6.80692205 terafoe
    • High End (0.9c): 2.20076603e57 joules, or 22.0076603 terafoe
  • Assuming the string is 3141.59265 light years in size:
    • Low End (0.5c): 4.13236331e56 joules or 4.13236331 terafoe
    • Mid End (0.7c): 1.06922882e57 joules or 10.6922882 terafoe
    • High End (0.9c): 3.4569552e57 joules or 34.569552 terafoe
So it's between 2.63074419 terafoe to 34.569552 terafoe, which is 4-A all the same.

Also their nightfighters can tank magnetar flares. I cannot find the quote just now, but that is further backing for their conventional stuff.

They also can create nested static universes (Low 2-C):

'But here, things are different. This appears to be a pocket universe, Jack Raoul. We believe it is a bubble of spacetime pinched off by a singularity. The heart of a black hole, perhaps.'
'Infinite and static.'

'Yes.'

'It doesn't make sense,' Raoul said. 'If the whole sky is as hot as the surface of the sun - Ambassador, how do you keep cool?'

The Ghost rolled, shimmering. 'There is another pocket universe at the centre of the colony. Our heat is dumped there.'

Raoul gaped. 'You have a whole universe for a heat dump? And is that how the stars keep shining?'

'We think so. Otherwise, immersed in this heat bath, simple thermodynamics would soon cause the stars to evaporate. We have only recently arrived here, Jack Raoul; there is much we have yet to explore. But it is clear to us that this cosmos is heavily engineered.'

'Engineered? Who by?'

'The Xeelee,' the Ghost said.

'Ah.' The Xeelee: aloof from the petty squabbles of lesser kinds, even of sprawling, brawling humanity. The Xeelee, as remote as clouds.

'It is not certain,' said the Ghost. 'But there are certain signatures we have come to recognise . . . Such universe-modelling does appear to be a characteristic Xeelee strategy.'''
~ Resplendent; The Cold Sink (A.D 5802)​
So I suggest this for their key:

High 4-C to 4-A for conventional weapons | 3-C to 3-B for astro-engineering, low 2-C when it comes to their static universes | High 2-A with best technology
 
I agree, idk how it was considered 1-B from scaling to quite a vague stament like "stupendous number of dimensions" and such.

The Xeelee's page is quite old and it surely needed some much needed improvementes.
 
KarmodF said:
I agree, idk how it was considered 1-B from scaling to quite a vague stament like "stupendous number of dimensions" and such.
The Xeelee's page is quite old and it surely needed some much needed improvementes.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we mostly just stacked thing after thing with it and it led to some wonky interpretations. I am working on it, and plan on going to the Anti-Xeelee, Transcendence, and Monads next.
 
"They also can create nested static universes (Low 2-C)"


I suppose it should be 2-A:

"Multiverse level+: Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. Take note that the universes are technically lined up along a 5-dimensional axis, but that their geometrical size still amounts to 0 within this scale."


A single infinite sized universe should be equal to infinite number of finite sized universes.


EDIT:

Also, the Proto-Xeelee caused the cosmic inflation which is a finite multiversal feat.
 
Okay

I will ask Ultima Reality if he thinks these should be Low 2-C or 2-A
 
So I asked Ultima and he said it would be low 2-C. He also agrees to the revisions.

We should also add Black Hole Creation for the Xeelee for obvious reasons.

I think I should go on to the Monads now.

There was no place. There was no time. A human observer would have recognized nothing here: no mass, energy, or force. There was only a rolling, random froth whose fragmented geometry constantly changed. Even causality was a foolish dream.
The orderly spacetime with which humans were familiar was suffused with vacuum energy, out of which virtual particles, electrons and quarks, would fizz into existence, and then scatter or annihilate, their brief walks upon the stage governed by quantum uncertainty. In this extraordinary place whole universes bubbled out of the froth, to expand and dissipate, or to collapse in a despairing flare.

This chaotic cavalcade of possibilities, this place of nonbeing where whole universes clustered in reefs of foamy spindrift, was suffused by a light beyond light. But even in this cauldron of strangeness there was life. Even here there was mind.

Call them monads.''
~ Exultant; ch.35​
They exist in a realm beyond physics, time, and space. Now honestly because dimensionality is a thing that is physics bound, I think they could be argued to be 1-A. At a low end we can place them at Low 1-C for existing at a state beyond Configuration space still I reckon.

I am asking Sufficient of Spacebattles for further information on them
 
Just a copy-paste:


\There was no place. There was no time. A human observer would have recognized nothing here: no mass, energy, or force. There was only a rolling, random froth whose fragmented geometry constantly changed. Even causality was a foolish dream.\

no place, time, causality.

\This chaotic cavalcade of possibilities, this place of nonbeing where whole universes clustered in reefs of foamy spindrift, was suffused by a light beyond light. But even in this cauldron of strangeness there was life. Even here there was mind.\

they are in non-being place, and can suffuse light beyond light

\In the seventeenth century the German mathematician Gottfried Leibniz had imagined that reality was constructed from pseudo-objects that owed their existence solely to their relation to each other. In his idea of the "monad," Leibniz had intuited something of the truth of the creatures who infested this domain.

They existed, they communicated, they enjoyed a richness of experience and community. And yet "they" didn't exist in themselves; it was only their relationships to each other that defined their own abstract entities.

No other form of life was possible in this fractured place'.'\

they exist, but didn't exist too, they're fully abstract (metaphysical?) entities beyond those. and cannot be defined except by their relation to themselvs

\The universe aged, as all things must; within, time grew impossibly long and space stretched impossibly thin. At last the fabric of the universe sighed and broke—and a bubble of a higher reality spontaneously emerged, a recurrence of the no-place where time and distance had no meaning. Just as the universe had once been spawned from chaos, so this droplet of chaos was now born from the failing stuff of the universe. Everything was cyclic.\

no-place, time, distance again.

\For the inhabitants of this new cosmos, it began with a singularity: a moment when time began, when space was born. But for the monads, as their chaotic Un-reality froze out once more into a rigid smoothness, the singularity was an end: for them, the story was already over. Encased in orderly, frozen spacetime, they would slumber through the long ages, until this universe in turn grew old and spawned new fragments of chaos, and they could wake again.\
 
Also, I am adding stuff for the Anti-Xeelee, and while they are described as beyond time and space and unaffected by it, they are also state to only encompass The Universe/Configuration Space. Perhaps they would get acausality/dimensionless stuffs but still high 2-A? Derp Idol has a solution for this I think
 
I think Dimensionless existance doesnt require Tier 1 anymore, It would be treated as just hax I think.
 
FanofRPGs said:
Also, I am adding stuff for the Anti-Xeelee, and while they are described as beyond time and space and unaffected by it, they are also state to only encompass The Universe/Configuration Space. Perhaps they would get acausality/dimensionless stuffs but still high 2-A? Derp Idol has a solution for this I think
Click to expand...
It would Acausality Type 5, at best here; well, it is already on the page
 
Jockey-1337 said:
Bump
Click to expand...
Me and Zach are working on the Monads right now. Aeyu thinks 1-A Monads are in the realm of possibility, but it's disputed.

The Transcendence will be High 2-A most likely too, possibly 1-A if given the time. Zach says he found a quote from Baxter himself that a full potential Transcendence >>> Xeelee, and that it's on his wall, but I cannot find it rip.
 
Also the Photino Birds should be 4-C physically | High 2-A in scope and with best tech, and they shoulf be given immaterial intangibility
 
I just binge read Baxter's newly released World Engines. Turns out it doesn't contain Xeelee at all ovo. But I might as well look at this thread

FanofRPGs said:
So I suggest this for their key:

High 4-C to 4-A for conventional weapons | 3-C to 3-B for astro-engineering,
Click to expand...
It looks good. Tier 2 stuffs seems okay.
About possibly higher dimensionality, if its any help, from World Engines there are 'blue hoops' which can make you have headache if you see them, because they have geometrically impossible placements. (Its actually 5 of them, no 4! No, 5! Arggh! ovo)

The characters talk about a collection of all possible universes, which sounds 2-B or 2-A. Different reality strands intersecting in 'higher-order manifold', which is hinted to be someone's creation.
 
Threemagi said:
I just binge read Baxter's newly released World Engines. Turns out it doesn't contain Xeelee at all ovo. But I might as well look at this thread
FanofRPGs said:
So I suggest this for their key:

High 4-C to 4-A for conventional weapons | 3-C to 3-B for astro-engineering,
Click to expand...
It looks good. Tier 2 stuffs seems okay.
About possibly higher dimensionality, if its any help, from World Engines there are 'blue hoops' which can make you have headache if you see them, because they have geometrically impossible placements. (Its actually 5 of them, no 4! No, 5! Arggh! ovo)

The characters talk about a collection of all possible universes, which sounds 2-B or 2-A. Different reality strands intersecting in 'higher-order manifold', which is hinted to be someone's creation.
Click to expand...
This collection, The Bulk, is Unknown, at least Low 1-C, possibly 1-A, because it resides in a nonexistent metamathematical realm beyond all space, time, causality, etc and contains likley uncountably infinite universes with different laws of physics. The main universe in Xeelee Sequence is already High 2-A.
 
FanofRPGs said:
This collection, The Bulk, is Unknown, at least Low 1-C, possibly 1-A, because it resides in a nonexistent metamathematical realm beyond all space, time, causality, etc and contains likley uncountably infinite universes with different laws of physics. The main universe in Xeelee Sequence is already High 2-A.
Click to expand...
Oh, so... From what I see on this thread, Xeelee controls small part of 'Bulk' , while Monads and Transcendence controls all Bulk?

Anyway, everyone seems to agree on downgrade. Maybe you can already revise the pages.
 
Threemagi said:
FanofRPGs said:
This collection, The Bulk, is Unknown, at least Low 1-C, possibly 1-A, because it resides in a nonexistent metamathematical realm beyond all space, time, causality, etc and contains likley uncountably infinite universes with different laws of physics. The main universe in Xeelee Sequence is already High 2-A.
Click to expand...
Oh, so... From what I see on this thread, Xeelee controls small part of 'Bulk' , while Monads and Transcendence controls all Bulk?
Anyway, everyone seems to agree on downgrade. Maybe you can already revise the pages.
Click to expand...
The Monads are more complex and could either be downgraded to Low 1-C or become 1-A, but Xeelee and Photinos would be High 2-A ye
 
@FanofRPGs

The Transcendence cannot be 1-A because they have been defeated by the Xeelee who are High 2-A. Otherwise, we have to upgrade the Xeelee to 1-A as well.


> Oh, so... From what I see on this thread, Xeelee controls small part of 'Bulk' , while Monads and Transcendence controls all Bulk?


No, the Transcendence are not from the Bulk, they have their own "outside of space-time" realm.
 
Jockey-1337 said:
@FanofRPGs
The Transcendence cannot be 1-A because they have been defeated by the Xeelee who are High 2-A. Otherwise, we have to upgrade the Xeelee to 1-A as well.


> Oh, so... From what I see on this thread, Xeelee controls small part of 'Bulk' , while Monads and Transcendence controls all Bulk?


No, the Transcendence are not from the Bulk, they have their own "outside of space-time" realm.
Click to expand...
I said they have the potential to surpass the Xeeele. Zach says that there is some WoG that a full potential Transcendence would have had access to The Ring and also >> the Xeelee
 
FanofRPGs said:
I said they have the potential to surpass the Xeeele. Zach says that there is some WoG that a full potential Transcendence would have had access to The Ring and also >> the Xeelee
Click to expand...
I think I found what you meant
Whats the scaling chain here?
 
Threemagi said:
FanofRPGs said:
I said they have the potential to surpass the Xeeele. Zach says that there is some WoG that a full potential Transcendence would have had access to The Ring and also >> the Xeelee
Click to expand...
I think I found what you meantWhats the scaling chain here?
Click to expand...
I don't see it there

Awake Monads >?> Full Potential Transcendence >?> Photino Birds > Xeelee >>> Transcendence >>>> Silver Ghosts >?> Interim Coalition
 
Its kinda subtle :
.. In my book we're either going to win by becoming transcendent, or we'll lose to the Xeelee and be crushed, but either way we won't be human any more, and we're looking back to the past, and we're consumed by regret."
It seems they're going to win if they can become transcendent. Implying they haven't actually reach transcendence.

Awake Monads >?> Full Potential Transcendence >?> Photino Birds > Xeelee >>> Transcendence >>>> Silver Ghosts >?> Interim Coalition

Oh so there are indeed two versions of transcendence. Power gap here is real wide.

There's still Tier Revision Staff Discussion going on. Maybe this revision will be affected too.
 
There are still arguments over the Monads, I would say we wait until a user on SB I am asking, Sufficient, answered the last questions I had
 
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