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The Reactions page

DontTalk

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The reactions page we have (which I didn't know until a short while ago) is a copy of the page from the OBD. This brings two problems with it: plagiarism and that the standards on it were never discussed.

So I will just do the discussion on the content of that page now and when that is done the content of the page should be rewritten ust so that it isn't compied anymore.


The center of the page would be the reaction Tiers. I have never seen them used, but they should be discussed.

The first question is if the way they are divided and their names should stay like this.

If we would want the names to stay like this I would argue that we should not simply use potencys of 10 as levels, but instead use something like the time it requires for someone with the speed of the given speed level to move 1 meter or something.

But I actually think that naming them like the speed levels is confusing. It would imply movement or in other words speed in the common sense. It would also easily be confused with the reaction speed we have for many characters listed. Because of that I feel that just naming them

"hundreds of microseconds reactions", "tens of microseconds reactions", "microsecond reactions" etc.

is less misleading.

But what I would actually suggest is to just not use tiers for reaction time at all. Reaction time usually doesn't really scale between characters (except they fight at speeds which require such reactions) and is generally not that much used. So I believe the best way to deal with it is to just note the specific value one has into the profiles.

"Can react in 22 nanoseconds" is specific and not much longer than what the tiers are named as anyway. So noting it like that is in my opinion the best option.


Another question is if the page should be renamed in "reaction time" upon be rewritten. Good formulations for the content of the page are very welcome as well.
 
DontTalk said:
But what I would actually suggest is to just not use tiers for reaction time at all. Reaction time usually doesn't really scale between characters (except they fight at speeds which require such reactions) and is generally not that much used. So I believe the best way to deal with it is to just note the specific value one has into the profiles.
Click to expand...
So, if X character has (for example) Subsonic combat speed with Supersonic reactions

And Y is equal/close in speed terms (and able to fight against X equally), Y can be scale from X speed (both combat and Reactions)?
 
Combat speed scales to combat speed. Reaction speed scales to combat speed if a character can handle fighting a character that fast, but can not move that fast himself. Reaction speed can scale to reaction speed, if they are comparable in that departement. It doesn't necessarily mean that just because two characters can fight each other they have comparable reactions speed, given that they usually both fight at lower speeds.

Reaction time doesn't scale, accept they are equal in that departement for a specific reason.

At least that is how I would handle it.
 
I forgot about this thread. Considering how many profiles it affects I think it should be highlighted. In my opinion, I think we can use the values if we were to specify, in some way, "A can react to Massively Hypersonic attacks from this distance", where the distance is that of what is specified in the standard assumptions written up.
 
I think speed tiers are rather easy to understand, personally. I don't see the need for specific rankings of reaction speed. It sort of mucks with our system because the way it is listed is just timeframes, rather than speed.
 
Well, I am obviously fine with revising, or possibly deleting, the reactions page, as I dislike plagiarism.

However, I do not know if we should change a system that works, especially given that we would have to rewrite thousands of pages, and that we already have a massive problem with all of the calculation links that need to be updated. We likely cannot strain our resources even further.
 
In regards to our Speed page, the very first paragraph states that:

Speed
The term "Speed" is normally referred to Combat Speed.

This would mean travel speed would not count.

So, if a character X can fight at a (#) combat speed, but can react to objects coming at (#2) speed, we can say that character X's speed is "#, with #2 reactions".

This would probably affect a lot of profiles, especially the RWBY characters.
 
@Alakabamm: So you are in favour of not listing reaction time at all, as I understand it? (I suppose you don't mean reaction speed here, like the one that we have listed all over the place)

I personally think listing reaction time is relevant for some characters. Not for all that many, but for some. That is, because some characters might not have to move to defend themselves and for such characters a reaction time is relevant even if they can not move even remotely that fast.


@general:

About the amount of works that a change requires here: The current terms "Mid Relativistic melee" or "Nigh Relativistic perception" are not used on any profile I know of. I would be suprised if there are actually any that have listed reaction time that way.

What might be the case is that reaction time and reaction speed are intermixed in some cases, but if they are they seemingly aren't by that which is noted on the reactions page, given that they aren't named accordingly.

I personally believe that deciding on an official notation for reaction time here is more of an addition than a revision of many speed values on profiles. But maybe my evaluation on how much it is used is off here?
 
Well, at some point, reaction time can be considered a "feat" rather than a statistic, especially if it is just mental speed or something. Accelerator and Space Marines fall under this category, for example. I think it is fine to list such a thing while describing why they are a certain speed in the speed stat section, but it may be better served in the bottom skills portion of the page.
 
Well, I thought that reflexes and reactions were synonymous, and we do list reflexes in a considerably large part of our profiles.
 
We do list reactions in many profiles, but aren't those usually quantified as a speed value? As in do we not usually calculate how far they moved in a timeframe?

If we do actually use timeframes as quantification for many of those, then I don't want to change the system. I would in that case just need to know as which reaction speed tier I should rank the ability to react in a certain time without moving.
 
Well, I have to constantly split my attention between many different tasks, so my apologies for possibly being a bit off in my understanding of this topic.

However, if I have understood correctly, do you wish to specifically list the exact "milli/micro/etc seconds" value for reaction time in ever profile that has related calculations, rather than list a convenient "Relativistic/FTL/etc" value that people can easily compare with the regular speed statistics?

My concern is synchronisation, and that listing a specific value with little connection to the rest of the generalised speed statistics would not be very useful for either casual visitors or versus debaters.

In addition, I am always extremely hesitant to start major revisions of systems that work, for very limited potential gain.
 
I've seen a few pages use it but not nearly enough to require a massive revision, don't worry. I agree with Alakabam and Antvasima that using seconds instead of categorizing it will just be confusing to many.
 
Well, I do not wish to do any big revision, so if that is what it would cause I will drop the idea right now.


But with that comes the question through which the topic originally came up:

I have currently noted in Shizuri Mugino's speed section "can react in 31.4 microseconds" based on a calculation of mine. Given that this seems to be the wrong way to list it, how should it by current standards be listed on her profile?
 
I think that we need to keep those timeframes of reaction/mental speed as more as a "feat" thing in the profiles rather than a hard statistic. As DT stated, we tend to only use reactions that had a quantifiable movement in our speed statistics and I think it should generally stay that way. If we are going to include reaction times, it should be in the little skills section below the hard data section of the profiles.
 
@Alakabamm: In that calculation may be still possible, but in another one I have already not. Well, I either just leave it as a small fact in the speed section or move it to the feats section of a profile, even though I personally feel that it is to relevant to not be mentioned under stats.
 
DontTalk said:
I have currently noted in Shizuri Mugino's speed section "can react in 31.4 microseconds" based on a calculation of mine. Given that this seems to be the wrong way to list it, how should it by current standards be listed on her profile?
Click to expand...
Hypersonic melee, although, we can just disregard and delete the thing on the basis of blatant plagiarism.
 
You can probably just include it in brackets in the speed section if it is significant, although I just don't think it should be a general rule.
 
Well, if it does become a rule some stipulation should be added? Like, it can only be considered such melee speed if some action is done, not just mental calculation and perceptions?
 
If a character states "I see in microseconds" or some such just calculate how long it'd take to cross 1 meter in a microsecond (Mach 2915) and then just add the appropriate speed tier (Massively Hypersonic+).

Putting in specific numbers will look both weird and will clutter up the page.
 
Well, regardless, the reactions page needs to be cleaned up, as it is currently quite badly formatted, not to mention plagiarised. Is anybody capable willing to do so?
 
I would be, if we have agreement on what is going on there and how we are handling reactions on pages.

Personally, I want to remove all the tiers on the page and just talk about what constitues reaction speed (it needs a movement) and what falls into the category of reaction times (which is a feat moreso than a speed tier).

Also, how reaction time can scale.
 
LordXcano said:
If a character states "I see in microseconds" or some such just calculate how long it'd take to cross 1 meter in a microsecond (Mach 2915) and then just add the appropriate speed tier (Massively Hypersonic+).

Putting in specific numbers will look both weird and will clutter up the page.
Click to expand...
We decided that perception will not be translated to reactions, as it doesn't necessarily mean they can apply it to combat where a short distance is specified.

@Antvasima I agree , the terms mid-relativistic and nigh relativistic should go at least. We should likely change the distances to what is specified in our standard assumptions as well.
 
Alakabamm said:
I would be, if we have agreement on what is going on there and how we are handling reactions on pages.

Personally, I want to remove all the tiers on the page and just talk about what constitues reaction speed (it needs a movement) and what falls into the category of reaction times (which is a feat moreso than a speed tier).

Also, how reaction time can scale.
Click to expand...
I didn't notice this. I agree we should cover the basics first.
 
@Alakabamm I think that we have agreed to stick to the same Reactions/Reflexes tiers as we use for Speed in general.

I am fine with if you attempt to appropriately rewrite the page.
 
Can I remove the numbers for each, though? I think they are a bit random and distracting.
 
Yes. Of course. You can remove the tiers, and stick to just using an explanation if you wish.
 
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