Standard assumptions for vs-battles

As I already suggested a few month ago, but postponed because of more important matters, I would like to write a page listing the standard assumptions for the scenarios in battles between characters.

The purpose of that is that if the details for a battle aren't listed (as the ones doing the threads sadly mostly don't do) one can assume that any non listed detail is like specified in the standard assumptions.

In order to fulfil this function the standard assumptions should be written in such a way that a as high amount of characters as possible can have a fight with each other that would be considered fair.

Fair has mostly two sides here: For one thing a character shouldn't have an advantage he usually doesn't have and his weaknesses shouldn't be covered through the scenario.

The other thing is that a character shouldn't be disadvantaged by the scenario, because it assumes a case it usually wouldn't engage in.

Some other sides already have such pages. Two notable ones probably are the OBD and the ACF wiki ones.

So let me state my initial thoughts and suggestions to some of the standards before the discussion begins.

Version of the character used: The strongest canon version of a character is used, that we have listed. The strongest one being defined as the one with the highest tier and if there are multiple ones with the same tier the more recent one. The addition that we should use the version we have listed simply follows out of convenience for this that don't know one of the characters.

Victory conditions: Death, BFR, permanent incapacitation. For BFR a character has lost if he can not return in one month. Permanent incapacitation is reached if the opponent ends up in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter for a month, without the other fighter actively participating in keeping him like that.

Another condition could be giving up, but since whether or not a character gives up depends strongly on what the fight is about I think it is hard to accurately use that condition.

One could consider K.O. as well, but I decided against it, since it would undermine the usefulness of Regenerationn and immortality. One might say that is unfair for characters that don't want to kill, but

State of mind: In character, but willing to kill.

That means the brawlers will fight against each other using the same fighting style as they usually would. That also means characters that don't go all out at the start or hold long speeches if they usually do that when fighting. I believe that is important for a fair fight, as a bad and inefficient fighting style, that fro example makes it so that character that could blitz doesn't do that, is an important thing to consider in battle and just a legitimate weakness of the character. The addition that they are willing to kill is added because, while it technically also is inefficient fighting style, there are so many characters that will never get beaten if not killed and at the same time so many characters not known to kill that it would just not be practical for the standard assumptions, as many fights would be decided just based on that. Like this KO also doesn't have to be added to the victory conditions preserving the advantage of the characters.

Knowledge of the other character/verse: None. Simple, but what one would expect of a first encounter between characters.

Preparation time: None. There are some characters whose fighting style may depend on good preparation, but I feel like such a prepared field is actually hard to get in a fight were both characters share the preparation condition. It also is hard to determine what is allowed in prep time and what not. Like if weapons can already be pulled, the battlefield be prepared / the battlefield being reality warped, future sight be used, information about the opponent gathered, attacks charged up etc. And and appropriate length for all speed levels is even harder, given that a MFTL+ characters could do years of stuff in a second.

Equipment: Standard equipment, that is why it stands on character profiles after all.

Time: Here it begins to get difficult. It is hard to find a time fair for most characters. Night is bad for all characters that have just human senses, while day is bad for practically all vampires. Furthermore there a characters that have different powers depending on time, like Katara being stronger at full moon or Brunhild loosing all powers once every three month.

Maybe not specifying a time would be best, but just specifying how time based effects are treated is better. So an idea would be to say all characters fight as if they were at the time they are at their strongest, even if they theoretically can never be at their strongest at the same time. For the notion of characters with human senses and other abilities, for which it may matter, I would suggest generally saying that it is day. Of course, even through a vampire gains immunity to daylight through this assumption, light based attacks that would usually be especially effective against them stay just as effective.

On a side note, I choose the time were they are at their strongest here instead of when they are the most average, because it could otherwise clash with the strongest form assumption from the beginning.

Locatio: Similar problem as with time, one can hardly make it fair for all characters. Additionally it is hard to balance how much of something is fair. Taking Katara as example again: What would even be a fair location for her? In the ocean since she is strongest there? In the desert, because she doesn't get special advantages there? At a lake or at a fountain? hard to say.

Another thought would be for mind control based characters. Should we assume a population of humans/animals close by so that they can use their advantage of mind control fully, or is that an unfair advantage? Should we maybe even give them their usually mind control subjects, if they have some? Or should they be in a lifeless zone so that they are helpless against a character with resistance to mind control?

What about people that can manipulate technologies or users of magnetism? They are in quite a disadvantage in a forest.

At the same time a plant user has problems in the city.

All such things could be considered, while choosing a fair location.

The only general thing would suggest is to not let them start in a closed space. Because of the large Area of Effect of many attacks one should easily be capable of moving large distances to dodge.

Starting Distance: How far should the characters stand from each other at the beginning of the battle?

The OBD writes 20 paces, the ACF wiki 50 meters. In my opinion that is both to low. A huge amount of characters listed are at least supersonic or higher. Such characters can cross 50 meters in a split second, which means that effectively all battles are close combat and the range stat becomes insignificant for the outcome of a battle. Characters like Reki that are specialized in long range combat are at a disadvantage here, even through their range should usually be a hudge advantage.

Technically I would want to say that placing the characters as far away from each other as the larger one of their ranges are is good, but that has too many problems. Like the fact that too large distances may never be crossed and that a battle starting with several ten-thousand kilometers between the opponents, because of one of the participants attacks is also not exactly fair or realistic. Finding a location for a variable range would also be difficult.

So here I also don't have a good solution for the problem.

Verse equalization: I initially didn't even want to list it, but I guess it is important to mention. To make it short I like the ACF wikis approach on energy equivalence. One might have to discuss how verses are equalized with different forms of supernatural abilities that are equally important. Like for example if in a battle between one piece and To aru majutsu no index devil fruits would be equalized to magic or esper abilities.

Edit: See here for the discussion on the topic of verse equalization. (please only discuss it there for the sake of organization)


So that are my thoughts for now... quite a bit of text actually. So everyone: ideas, opinions, good formulations for the rules?

I am not so sure about equilization...

You summed it up nicly, but i'm not so sure about the equlization

Equalization could be a problem on battles... for example, on Bleach (at least in the start), hollows and similar can't be see it by normal people, or even mortals; could be difficult try to look for a character that can see and touch them, even is both have similar stats. Another example is LoK, where the Spectral Realm exist...

I agree with what was stated. What about the speed of omnipresent entities. Should this be equalized as well or should this be restricted to their own Universes?

You advise the combatants should be in-character, but this contradicts your first advice: the versions of highest tiers should be used.

There are several characters who don't fight at their peak normally, to the point where they are referred to as entirely separate entities.

I agree with everything. Equalization is important, otherwise Logias from One Piece would be nearly impossible to beat with physical attacks by people within the same tier. All the shinigami would be invisible to humans who can't sense spirits.

I agree with this.

TheMightyRegulator said:

I agree. What about the speed of omnipresent entities. Should this be equalized as well or should this be restricted to their own Universes?
You advise the combatants should be in-character, but this contradicts your first advice: the versions of highest tiers should be used.

There are several characters who don't fight at their peak normally, to the point where they are referred to as entirely separate entities.

Click to expand...

Omnipresence is omnipresence, I don't think it should be equalized as it is a legitimate ability and stat of the character.

Vaguely related is that everyone should be assumed to fight in their own world. That is also interesting for abilities that may work for one world but not in another. For example an ability that doesn't work against members of the royal family may still work against king arthur if he isn't part of the royal family in the verse where the technique came from.


If they have it as form they reach it as their peak at some point, don't they? So in that case there also is a in character version of that. Naruto might need to be increadibly angry to turn into Bijuu Mode, but that angry mindless fighting style would be his in character style for that form in that case. So there would be no contradiction. One could also simply add, that strongest form takes priorty to in character.

All of the formats here seem to be quite sound, covering most aspects that should be done before a battle. With regards to equalization however, I am not sure if that would positively affect any future battles, as different powers displaced by characters are going to have different effects regardless.

Character Version : Total agreement

Victory Conditio : I'd very much prefer we keep KO, just so fights like Wolverine vs (Insert Character with stats equal to Wolvie but no real way to put him down due to regen here) doesn't devolve to "Wolverine regens from a nuke, lol"

State of Mind : I'd prefer the OP for whatever battle presents scenarios for this. E.g. "Bakugou wants to fight Louise to prove he's the strongest explosion user. Saito wants to protect Louise. - Saito vs Bakugou fight ensues", else, in-character only.

VS Knowledge : I agree with none.

Prep Time : I agree with none unless stated, to keep prep gods from lolstomping e.g. Mr. Fantastic vs Plastic Ma .

Standard Equipment : Agreeing with standard equipment, unless they have something so ridiculously powerful with them, or something listed under standard equipment they can't really bring (Idk why some profiles have that e.g. Hiraga Saito having a jet, a rocket launcer and some other stuff in there).

Time and Place : Again, scenario.

Starting Distance : I'd give them 500 meters (low supersonic characters cross 340 meters in one second) atleast for characters with similar fighting styles as a standard, farther for ranged combatants + elevation (e.g. Archer archtypes like Sino vs Kirito)

Verse Equalizatio : I'd like it best mentioned in the OP to keep fights like Itachi vs (insert fighter here) devolve into lol!Tsukoyomi, but also keep fighters like Saito or the Touma from looking like crap against characters who use powers that work like magic but not really.

That's just me though.

Some other thing I'm concerned about... We should really agree whether to go with given name first or surname first as there are the likes of Kamijou Touma who goes with surname first then there's Naruto Uzumaki who goes with given name first.

I agree with all except for location and starting distance. Specifying those lead to too much trouble and depend heavily on character interaction. We should make it a requirement to specify those two conditions on this wiki.

Also verse equalizations should be discussed in thread. For example, there are still problems with saying that Devil Fruit characters = Espers due to how those two groups interact with the environment and other characters, as well as how their powers work. We should equalize, but only to an extent and specific to each case.

Alakabamm said:

I agree with all except for location and starting distance. Specifying those lead to too much trouble and depend heavily on character interaction. We should make it a requirement to specify those two conditions on this wiki.

Click to expand...

In practice it will not be done. There is a notion on the rules page which strongly suggests to add them, but nobody does adds any details. Banning for it is too much, so it shouldn't be a full rule.

If they are not specified but should definietly be, because of character interaction, one can still just ask in the thread, but for all other cases I would like to just set them to something.

I am just not sure what.

If that's the case, set it to the max range of the character with the best range.

If that value exceeds 10km, then just 10km.

For location, allow it to be a place where both can utilize their powers fully and freely. That's all you need to say.

Alakabamm said:

If that's the case, set it to the max range of the character with the best range.
If that value exceeds 10km, then just 10km.

For location, allow it to be a place where both can utilize their powers fully and freely. That's all you need to say.

Click to expand...

The range suggestion is good, I agree with it.

For location: Then that would be like Katara vs Zuko on an iceberg in the ocean. That is the environment optimal for katara to freely use her powers and zuko isn't restricted by it, but still kinda unfair.


I will make a second thread about verse equalization, given that many people seem to have different opinions about that.

No, I mean, we don't have to ever specify what the environment is like. We should just assume maximal conditions for both.

For Zuko, that would be in a lightning storm near a source of heat.

verse equalization thread is made here.

Alakabamm said:

No, I mean, we don't have to ever specify what the environment is like. We should just assume maximal conditions for both.
For Zuko, that would be in a lightning storm near a source of heat.

Click to expand...

So we would assume a fight in a lightning storm, on an iceberg with a volcano on it in the ocean?

Well... makes as much sense as my time assumption. Then again I could imagine that causes trouble if it comes to things like superman being charged up by light with planck length as wavelength or similar power ups that can be taken to extremes. Like for example placing Natsu in a enviroment where he can eat as much fire as he desires...

Permanent Incapacitation should be looked at more carefully tbh. As I'm pretty sure many wars have lasted longer than months plus someone could be BFR'd for years, biding their time to escape, and then actually escape and finish the other for good.

In this case, permanent incapacitation shouldn't last too long, as most battles should end when one or the other is unconscious. Unless this is a big war, permanent incapacitation and time shouldn't be too big of an issue.

Mirth, this is STANDARD assumption, AKA for match that doesn't give precises rules, so if a match doesn't precise prep-time, none will be given.

But if a watch do give prep-time it will be given.

These are all standard assumptions, correct? As in, unless specified otherwise?

ThePerpetual said:

These are all standard assumptions, correct? As in, unless specified otherwise?

Click to expand...

correct.

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Mirth, this is STANDARD assumption, AKA for match that doesn't give precises rules, so if a match doesn't precise prep-time, none will be given.
But if a watch do give prep-time it will be given.

Click to expand...

A-Ah.. My bad, sorry for the inconvenience. The entire day I was still under the effects of a sleep medicine, so I must have not noticed that tidbit. My, my, this is embarrassing. ^^'

MirthfulDoggedness said:

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Mirth, this is STANDARD assumption, AKA for match that doesn't give precises rules, so if a match doesn't precise prep-time, none will be given.
But if a watch do give prep-time it will be given.

Click to expand...

A-Ah.. My bad, sorry for the inconvenience. The entire day I was still under the effects of a sleep medicine, so I must have not noticed that tidbit. My, my, this is embarrassing. ^^'

Click to expand...

Note to self: Do not come to help revise content if I'm on medicine, or I'm tired. (Especially when it's four-o-clock in the morning..)

<.< *Stealthfully hides his own mistake of writing watch instead of match under the rug*

I don't see much problem with anything here, then. I suppose the trickiest to deal with would be comparing the supernatural energies of one verse to that of another, particularly when they aren't very elaborated on.

We know, for instance, that verses like OFF and Undertale primarily use magic as their main supernatural source of power, but verses like these are comparatively extremely strange and surreal, often screwing with the minds of players and the fabric of the game itself. How would that compare, then, to say, the magic of a world like Fairy Tail or Pathfinder? The Nasuverse, too, has fairly specific mechanics for how magic works in it's world. Does that mean that the Magic Resistance skill wouldn't work against spells from more abstract/surreal verses?

What about if there was a technique that stopped someone from using their chakra? Would that work on the spiritual energy used by a Bleach character or the ki of a Dragonball Z character? That's the sort of thing I'm wondering about.

Support!

Of course it depends on the situation Perpetual, Magic is pretty much the same for the most part unless it's proven otherwise. Chakra has been shown to be melded from both Physical and Spiritual energies meaning that a technique that stops both would effect Bleach and vise versa since both is needed to make it it'll disrupt the balance. Ki is just Chi or martial artist's life energy source & is completely different from chakra, and Haki is it's own beast most factors are unknown.

Hmm. I am the wrong person to ask about this, as I have never been very interested in the Vs part of things around here, just in that the statistics are as accurate as possible.

However, as long as these are suggestions for unspecified fights, and members are still able to choose othervise to not feel too constrained, I suppose that it is mostly all right.

I agree with setting a standard for when conditions are not specified, and the conditions here seem pretty reasonable. I also agree that starting distance and location depend so much on the actual matchup being discussed to not be unfair it's hard to determine a standard that wouldn't screw up the chances of some characters (especially location). It should be suggested to always be specified by the OP. For example, setting a melee only character against a strong ranged attacker far away from each other in an empty field when both have similar speeds wouldn't be particularly fair, but putting them closer and in an environment with more cover and blind spots like a city might balance it enough.

^Omnipresent entities are only omnipresent when one with the universe and stuff they should have speed ratings otherwise like Neo from Digimon but a lot don't.They"re omnipresence isn't useable unless the op states he's in the realm he becomes so

ThePerpetual said:

I don't see much problem with anything here, then. I suppose the trickiest to deal with would be comparing the supernatural energies of one verse to that of another, particularly when they aren't very elaborated on.

We know, for instance, that verses like OFF and Undertale primarily use magic as their main supernatural source of power, but verses like these are comparatively extremely strange and surreal, often screwing with the minds of players and the fabric of the game itself. How would that compare, then, to say, the magic of a world like Fairy Tail or Pathfinder? The Nasuverse, too, has fairly specific mechanics for how magic works in it's world. Does that mean that the Magic Resistance skill wouldn't work against spells from more abstract/surreal verses?

What about if there was a technique that stopped someone from using their chakra? Would that work on the spiritual energy used by a Bleach character or the ki of a Dragonball Z character? That's the sort of thing I'm wondering about.

Click to expand...

I would try to locate patterns in each story and use those as a guideline.

For example, in Pathfinder (I have the core Player's Handbook and Monster Manual in my room right now. ^_^) Spell Resistance is a magical creature's ability to ward off magical assault and blatant supernatural powers. Fireballs and Disintegrates have to pierce that spell resistance to affect the monster. Specifically, it affects targeted spells (e.g. Ray of Frost), area of effect spells (e.g. Cone of Cold), and spells that try to negatively (or positively) affect them (e.g. Cure Light Wounds). However, some spells, like Acid Splash, Cloudkill, Earthquake, and Summon Monster, don't care about that resistance, as they use an indirect method of attacking the foe as opposed to directly trying to annihilate them with magical projectiles and hexes. In addition, magic weapons both ignore spell resistance and often circumvent damage resistance or incorporeality.

So from that, we can glean that spell resistance is like magical kevlar in that it tries to stop enemy projectile magic, but it can be worked around through less direct methods or simple melee attacks.

Most attacks launched by monsters fall under Targeted and AoE spells, and many a boss monster's soul manipulation will be resisted as it falls under Effect spells. Most attacks would, thus, fail against a Balor or Pit Fiend. Exceptions would be every human (non-magical), Agore's magical trident, Undyne's conjured spears (I'm reminded of Mordenkainen's Sword from D&D), Papyrus and Sans' conjured and launched bones (but not the Gaster Blasters or his gravity-chucking nonsense) any of the dogs who attempt to tackle them (Lesser, Greater, Endogeny, and Doggo with his swords), Mad Dummy until he runs out of knives, and Photoshop Flowey's... tendril-hand-spray thingy and time rewinding.

As for OFF, I know less about its lore (mostly because there isn't as much, I love it too). The Batter's bat, if a magic weapon, is A-OK for clubbing people with, and A-OK for clubbing people with even if it isn't. Competences might not go through, however, even if they are used in a hands-on manner (Bestow Curse has a range of touch, yet it still is affected by spell resistance). Depends on the user's skill with it and whether or not the Judge rolls a 1 or a Natural 20.

As for blocking up a chakra, if the method of drawing power is the same for each Verse, then even if the effects look different, the method still works. If two characters draw power from the sun, then blowing up the sun will work in both instances for removing a power-source. Blocking a DBZ character's chakra means no more flying, screaming, laser-throwing, faster-than-light travel, teleportation, Regenerationn, or super forms because that's how all those things are accomplished. Such a power would work wonders in the DBZ world!

This is how you do equalization!

Just as a note: It is probably best if DontTalk inserts the initial suggestions into a new separate page that can be linked to via the relevant front page section, as the text is too large to fit othervise.

I made a temporary draft here. (Everything on there is still open for discussion)

To explain some ideas:

-Location: The central park has plants, water, earth, human civilization (metal, humans, plastic etc.) and animals. So most characters should be capable of using their abilities there.

I prefer it against just writing an optimal location for both character, because of many extreme cases on what a optimal location would be and because one would have to discuss in the threads what even is an optimal location.

-Range: As much as the max range of one of the characters is, to emphasize the advantage of range, but maximum 4 km so that they can still start in the central park and to avoid extremes.

-verse equal: nothing to specific there, just to give people a general gist on how it should be done.


To the questionable ones I als added a note that they should be brought up in the thread if the standard method wouldn't result in a fair fight.

I agree with this addition.

Everything's fine

I also think that the page seems fine and fit to use.

So, does everybody else think that we should link to this page in the "Versus thread rules" section in the main page now, or are there some parts that should be adjusted first?

I'm in agreement to it being linked.

Looks good.