Why is Batman this high?

[LoudCloud]

He's just a human. A peak human at the absolute limits of what a man can do, but a non-supernatural human all the same. The feats listed are either outliers/PIS, powerscaling (which is discouraged for DC and Marvel characters) or simply non-canon.

AP and Durability: -Destroying planks of wood and bricks can be done by martial artists in real life. It never states how much he destroyed (which makes a huge difference).

-Breaking the tree is cool and all but Year One is non-canon.

-Being stronger than deadshot is powerscaling that uses a deadshot feat where he slams an ordinary human into a wall causing the crack. If the slam was that powerful, the human would have died but he seems completely fine. Inconsistent if anything.

Speed: -This is what confuses me the most. Batman uses stealth tactics for a reason; he doesn't want to get shot. Anytime Batman (a non-supernatural human) dodges bullets, it's a major outlier.

Batman gets this special treatment where people look at his outliers/non-canon material/powerscaling to make him this unrealisticaly strong (essentialy going against the point of the character, which is that he is just a human) and yet Karate Kid gets the middle finger cause "Durr Hurr, He's only a human so defeating Kryptonians is PIS". At least Karate Kid has the excuse that he got martial arts training from all over the Universe from the begining of alien civilisations to the 31st century. Some of which would raise his abilities way past that of any human. He can use them to surpass human stats and has consistently shown Solar System feats. Doesn't seem like PIS to me. And yet Batman gets away with being above human when it only happens a few times. I get that Solar system and Wall level are hugely different but one has a consistent excuse for it, while the other doesn't.

 

[Jucaslucas]

You're comparing breaking walls and dodgin bullets to beating Kryptonians, dude.

I have a lot of feats for Batman, I'll post in a minute.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Batman has split a tree with a kick, and can punch holes through walls... And has survived being thrown through walls with no broken bones.

That is not normal human level. He is 9-B because of that.

 

[LoudCloud]

You're comparing breaking walls and dodgin bullets to beating Kryptonians, dude.
I have a lot of feats for Batman, I'll post in a minute.

I already explained why KK has a reason for beating Kryptonians. And at least it doesn't go against the core concept of the character.

 

[LoudCloud]

Batman has split a tree with a kick, and can punch holes through walls... And has survived being thrown through walls with no broken bones.
That is not normal human level. He is 9-B because of that.

Said the tree thing in non-canon. Not sure about those other feats though.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Gets pushed through a brick wall and is fine later:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275532/5059410-wallbrother.jpg

Casually one shots Scarecrow and damages the brick wall behind him:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275532/5056960-scarecrowwall.png

Smashes a Talon's head through a very thick wall:

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275532/5056972-talonheadwall.jpg

Is strong enough to stop himself from being sucked into this Jet Engine:

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275532/5056965-turbine.jpg

 

[Reppuzan]

He also bench presses a half ton rather easily, regularly aimdodges automatic gunfire, puts the hurt on empowered foes like Bane and Killer Croc, and can casually snap a man's neck with one motion (as he's done with the Joker in several what-ifs, including Injustice).

 

[Jucaslucas]

His Batarangs can knock back an young Superman:

http://static5.comicvine.com/upload...7-12-44+-+batman-superman+(2013-)+001-013.jpg

http://static4.comicvine.com/upload...7-12-46+-+batman-superman+(2013-)+001-014.jpg

Survives a point blank explosion that made a hole into the ground

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/2547827-batman_06_zone_rizz3n_pg17.jpg

 

[LoudCloud]

Well thinking about it again. The Batsuit would definetly effect his AP/Durability, so I guess it's not too far-fetched. But his speed is some major BS. Batman is portrayed as hardly ever dodging bullets and always working out an alternative escape plan when having a gun pointed at him.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Kicks a motorcycle in half:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111124701/4171566-2565575437-38555.png

Blocks bullets with his gauntlet:

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275532/5059431-br.jpg

Again:

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275532/5059426-bb.jpg

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275532/5059427-bb2.jpg

But it might be aim dodging.

 

[LoudCloud]

Considering how knowledgable/experienced he is with fighting against guns, I'd say it's aimdodging too.

 

[Metabro]

People have been posting feats left and right proving that Batman is indeed powerful, but I think one that hasn't been talked about needs to be addressed:

Peak humans in fiction =/= peak humans in real life

We treat fictional humans differently because NOTHING about them makes sense. How can Batman simultaneously be as strong as a human can be while also being as fast as a human can be? And how can he be a master gynmast or swimmer on top of all this? To maximize each of these traits, you need radically different body types and exercise routines

Likewise, how can martial arts training make a normal human able to leap several stories or block hundreds of oncoming arrows, like we see in so many martial arts movies? How can "peak humans" like Hawkeye or Green Arrow outshoot bullets with just superior archery skill?

We don't compare fiction to real life. If DC says a human at the physical peak of his species with knowledge of every martial art on Earth can dodge bullets, take lethal damage by our standards, can dodge bullets after they've been fired, and can keep up with metahumans, we believe it because that's the rules of the verse. The only thing that would keep us from doing so is the amount of consistency we see in a character's feats, which yes Batman has plenty of

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Like the Cap, who "is not superhuman at all"

 

[LoudCloud]

Fair do. But if that's the case I'd like Karate Kid to have a tier too. This wiki won't give him one for the same basis (He's "just a human"), but he's shown consistently to be Solar System level. If humans like Batman, Krillin etc. can have an above human tier due to consistent feats then so should Karate Kid.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Don't quote large walls of texts, please. It's unsightly and in this case, completely unnecessary.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Fair do. But if that's the case I'd like Karate Kid to have a tier too. This wiki won't give him one for the same basis (He's "just a human"), but he's shown consistently to be Solar System level. If humans like Batman, Krillin etc. can have an above human tier due to consistent feats then so should Karate Kid.

I'm pretty sure Karate Kid has Chi, at least.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

If it's been discussed before I am wary on doing it now unless new information is given.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we do not count power-scaling feats for Batman, unless they are extremely consistent, such as being far stronger than Deadshot, or explicitly calculated, such as his bullet-dodging, and we generally go by high-level feats when evaluating characters, unless they are complete outliers.

In addition, Marvel is even more extreme in making its supposedly "peak human" characters such as Captain America routinely able to dodge multiple energy blasts at once.

As for Karate Kid, he is tricky, as the entire point of the character was that he had no superhuman powers. We can stretch suspension of disbelief to a certain point, such as peak human characters in Marvel or DC being much stronger and swifter than in real life, but if anybody could turn into a solar system buster from training in martial arts, it would break the overall rules of their own continuity of Kryptonians and Daxamites being vastly superior to humans.

Still, it is possible that we should either delete the Karate Kid page, due to not making any sense whatsoever, or rate him as a Solar System level Attack Potency MFTL+ speed character, due to consistently being able to fight characters of that level.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Just a question. Is the Batman's profile only Post Crisis, or it is a composite with Post Flashpoint too?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it is Post-Crisis. Perhaps we should mention that?

 

[Jucaslucas]

Yeah, it makes it kind of confusing.

All the feats I put here are N52...

 

[Antvasima]

I have changed the page title.

 

[LoudCloud]

Well, we do not count power-scaling feats for Batman, unless they are extremely consistent, such as being far stronger than Deadshot, or explicitly calculated, such as his bullet-dodging, and we generally go by high-level feats when evaluating characters, unless they are complete outliers.
In addition, Marvel is even more extreme in making its supposedly "peak human" characters such as Captain America routinely able to dodge multiple energy blasts at once.

As for Karate Kid, he is tricky, as the entire point of the character was that he had no superhuman powers. We can stretch suspension of disbelief to a certain point, such as peak human characters in Marvel or DC being much stronger and swifter than in real life, but if anybody could turn into a solar system buster from training in martial arts, it would break the overall rules of their own continuity of Kryptonians and Daxamites being vastly superior to humans.

Still, it is possible that we should either delete the Karate Kid page, due to not making any sense whatsoever, or rate him as a Solar System level Attack Potency MFTL+ speed character, due to consistently being able to fight characters of that level.

Doesn't this wiki usually value consistent feats over "the point of the character". I mean, the "point" of Saitama is to be a parody of op anime protagonists by defeating anyone who challanges him in one punch, and yet we go by feats rather than assuming he's invincible. The "point" of Batman using stealth and gadgets is because he's just a man who can't take enemies with guns head-on (and in my own personal opinion that should be enough to discount bullet-dodging feats as outliers but whatever), and yet we consider his bullet-dodging feats. In stories, 99/100 times Batman will resort to hiding or using a gadget to avoid gun-wielding enemies and take them out unfairly, but we still put that aside to consider his best moments (highest feats). Obviously things like outliers should still be considered (hence why I disagree with Batman's speed placement) but if consistent showings trump story-telling points then that's just the way it is.

I know that wall level to solar system level might seem like a huge jump for "human" characters but consider the fact that Karate Kid has had training in every single martial art around the galaxies from the begining of time to the 31st century, some which would grant him powers above human limitations. He has even shown supernatural powers like resitance to mind control and scaning for weak spots in objects. He is far beyond any "human" in the DC verse. If characters like Krillin can be put at planet level despite being human because evidence suggests so, then I don't know why we can't do the same for KK. Obivously there are a few stories that put him at lower levels making him inconsistent which is why I suggest we should have something like "8A, 4B at his peak" or "Fluctuates from 8A to 4B" or something similar.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with "Fluctuates from 8-A to 4-B".

 

[Zensum]

He has alot of beyond peak human feats

 

[Cropfist]

So what do we do about Karate Kid's AP?

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain. As is mentioned in the footnote of his page, he is incredibly hard to pin down.

 

[LordXcano]

Well, Ant, just 4 messages up you said "I am personally fine with "Fluctuates from 8-A to 4-B"."

So I'd imagine that was supposed to be implemented but people just forgot to do it.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Feel free to fix the page accordingly, if you wish.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, Karate Kid is from the 31th Century, where the average human is said to be as intelligent as all of 21th Century humanity.

Due to how silly and over the top it all is, I have no problems with Karate Kid becoming superhuman from "regular" physical training. 8-A to 4-B is a good rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to adjust the page accordingly.