The World's Strongest Boy VS Dark Knight

[First_Witch]

We tried...

clearly not hard enough

 

[Da3ggman]

Baki has less skill then a character from the Eminence in Shadow? Yowzers.

Stop the ragebait

 

[Vzearr]

Stop the ragebait

I'm being serious.

 

[First_Witch]

Stop the ragebait

The ragebait in the op son

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

This was in a dream or something iirc.

Why is bro coming out of no where just to speak for the sake of speaking…

It’s the narrator describing Yujiro Hanma as he’s about to meet up with hanyama

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Sounds like Instinctive Action, but they still would need to know what's going on to feel it, I assume. He knew they were shooting at him, and later he could see the guy he was fighting against.

I'll rephrase: "How did he sense it?"

umm did you read the scan?

He felt their intention and bloodlust, and he was able to know the exact trajectory of all of the bullets without seeing them or reacting beforehand

The last panel shows one sensing intent with out seeing but Gaia is able to increase that specific sense to more than a hundred folds (first time using that word ) via the usage of him being able to control his adrenaline and such

Baki and Musashi did the same thing (the sensing) but even before their intentions to fight it seems

Here, Baki, before she even does anything, would be able to sense her attacks by reading her body/brain signal

 

[Zefra3011]

umm did you read the scan?

He felt their intention and bloodlust, and he was able to know the exact trajectory of all of the bullets without seeing them or reacting beforehand

The last panel shows one sensing intent with out seeing but Gaia is able to increase that specific sense to more than a hundred folds (first time using that word ) via the usage of him being able to control his adrenaline and such

Baki and Musashi did the same thing (the sensing) but even before their intentions to fight it seems

"I feel bloodlust", I assume it goes for everyone who knows they have several guns pointed at his head. I see it has flowery language describing instincts sharpening in extreme circumstances, which were kept even after. Someone who is used to needing his guard up will instinctively have it up naturally. Unless in Baki, bloodlust is a supernatural thing, but these scans don't prove it. It would also be useless, as in this match-up, knowing Epsilon wants to kill Baki won't magically make Baki know magical projectiles are coming at him.

EDIT: Main problem ain't even whether Baki can read Epsilon or not, it's that he needs to understand a sword can throw stuff, understanding she didn't miss her attack, which would be somewhat more logical from his perspective, that's the thing. If he can't right away, as it appears, I believe Epsilon should be capable of landing a few hits with x3 Ap advantage before Baki properly adapts to it. If later he adapts and they have to engage in h2h, then Baki must be skilled enough to have the edge against a skilled fighter like Epsilon, who has 3 times his output and durability.

 

[Jigoshi]

I'll rephrase: "How did he sense it?"

To be honest, I feel like the question being asked is a bit too vague or needs further clarification. I said that he sensed and dodged Musashi’s imaginary slashes, then you asked how he sensed it. The scan shows him sensing the attack and thus dodging the attack before it lands. He is sensing the attack with his...senses. Are you wondering if he has instinctive reactions? Baki does have instinctive reactions. Can you elaborate more on this question?

Eh, I know little about Baki, so if something isn't on the profile, I can't understand what you're talking about.

That’s fair. I’m just surprised because out of all the things they list on Musashi’s profile, they do rope art.. They didn’t even mention any other skills for Musashi’s like Ultra High Level Sen no Sen…Two Swords Under-heaven style…swordless.

I see, do we have more examples of what he can use it for? Possibly, where he is shown to use this exact technique.

He really only uses it in this fight from my memory, but also note that this fight is technically more recent storyline-wise, and after that fight, he only had a few fights, but none where he didn’t need to even use this ability.

Baki is very skilled; I won't lie. My main concern was whether he had enough to dodge Epsilon's slashes. Just because someone can dodge one thing he can see it doesn't mean he can dodge EVERYTHING he can't see.

I can see that. Sometimes, Baki doesn’t always use instinctive reactions and does take damage. However, it does seem for attacks that can be more of a threat to him, he can sense it even if the attack hasn’t actually happened (which was the fighting spirit link I showed.) I will try to use more examples since you’re not too familiar with the series. We even see that Yujiro can sense incoming danger, as seen in his fight with Kaku, in which Yujiro considered that punch as a threat and avoided being hit by it. Baki also displayed this by dodging Musashi’s slashes.

Say someone might dodge attacks while blindfolded, but because he already knew the techniques/fighting style, this feat won't apply to stuff he doesn't have prior knowledge about. This is why I need to understand HOW he senses/perceives/reacts/reads during those feats.

Baki also didn’t know any of Musashi’s abilities since this was his first encounter with him. He was also questioning if this was the real Musashi Miyamoto. But for this matchup itself, the beginning says that Baki does have prior knowledge of Epsilon’s invisible attacks. This is something similar to what Baki dealt with in the past.

Baki clearly can't read magic, so reading them via it is out of the question. He still can see her moving her sword, BUT he would need to figure out that magic is coming at him. Especially from a sword, I believe in Baki swords don't shoot stuff; he might just think she missed her attack. The brain signal thing might work, but I would prefer to know the extent of its practical uses because, in that scan, he reads a very specific brain signal rather than every possible one.

For more context, Baki, using Ultra High Level Sen no Sen or brain reading in the scene, showed him picking up the signal that Musashi had to go for an attack, and he tried to counter before Musashi could land his attack. That was the initial scan I sent, but gonna send it again because I think the link got deleted somehow
scan

(Also, add that Baki typically has a much higher chance when using his imagination training to defeat his opponent before a matchup happens, but the match says no prep time, so he won’t be able to use that.)


Other skills or techniques that need to be mentioned:

Baki has 0.5 seconds unconscious, which is a technique, or rather more of a skill that Baki developed, which is based on the book Tor Nørretranders, which states that there is a timeframe at which humans are unconscious. Baki is reading the smallest details of his opponent's movements, which allows him to gauge the time frame that someone is unconscious and can land as many attacks as he wants.

Another skill that Baki has is that he can knock out his opponents simply by grazing their chin or the skin on their chin. For context, Pickle is one of the most durable characters in the series and has very thick neck vertebrae, which makes it almost impossible to actually shake his brain through traditional knockout methods. Baki bypasses this by just grazing Pickle’s chin, which knocks him down. So that’s like limited dura neg.

Next is Benda/Whipstrike, a technique that also bypasses durability by targeting the skin, which works on everyone. Shown with statements that even if you have the soft body of a woman or a honed body like a man (Chapter has some NSFW), the technique works on everyone. Retsu also says this to Hanayama (Another tanky character) that a punch to him wouldn’t damage him, but the slap would hurt him. This is shown with Pickle and Yujiro, who are the most durable characters in the series, and who succumb to the pain of the Whipstrike.

This technique also bypasses the pain tolerance of the opponent; Baki states that even through his extreme training, taking damage over the years, and sustaining a body that developed an insane pain tolerance, he couldn’t handle the pain of Benda. This is also shown with Yujiro, so that he has to flex every muscle in his body so that he won’t feel the pain.

Next is the cockroach dash, a technique where Baki reaches his top speed in an instant. This is something that can actually blitz opponents who are comparable to him in speed. Other than hitting his opponent in an instant, this allows him to travel great distances, Shiba stating that he easily moved 5-6 meters in an instant, which should allow him to close the distance between him and Epilson.


Baki is someone who generally tries to end his fights as fast as possible, so he will likely try to close the distance with the cockroach dash, then use his following strikes to knock out Epilson.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Upgraded presention-wise Musashi's profile

Musashi Miyamoto (Baki)

Musashi Miyamoto was once Japan's greatest swordsman and is the country's most renowned legend four hundred years later. Sometime after the final battle between Yujiro and Baki, Musashi was resurrected through scientific cloning and supernatural soul transfer. After his resurrection, Musashi...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Yall should probably add justifications and scans for the abilities though..

 

[Zefra3011]

To be honest, I feel like the question being asked is a bit too vague or needs further clarification. I said that he sensed and dodged Musashi’s imaginary slashes, then you asked how he sensed it. The scan shows him sensing the attack and thus dodging the attack before it lands. He is sensing the attack with his...senses. Are you wondering if he has instinctive reactions? Baki does have instinctive reactions. Can you elaborate more on this question?

You can perceive something moving because you see it, because you hear it moving, because you feel air moving, because you have enough prior knowledge of it to know how it moves, because he uses a familiar fighting style and you know how it works... There are thousands of ways on HOW you can read or perceive an attack, which one is it specifically? The scan itself doesn't elaborate.

He really only uses it in this fight from my memory, but also note that this fight is technically more recent storyline-wise, and after that fight, he only had a few fights, but none where he didn’t need to even use this ability.

Yeah, but then feat-wise, that technique shouldn't allow him to do anything against magical slashes; all I can see is him reading a very specific brain signal.

Baki also displayed this by dodging Musashi’s slashes.

Can be done via prior knowledge of the opponent; you know he's likely to do something, and you dodge it. Baki doesn't possess any knowledge of Epsilon.

Arguing that Baki can dodge things like that without knowledge, be it consciously or subconsciously, is just illogical.

Baki also didn’t know any of Musashi’s abilities since this was his first encounter with him. He was also questioning if this was the real Musashi Miyamoto. But for this matchup itself, the beginning says that Baki does have prior knowledge of Epsilon’s invisible attacks. This is something similar to what Baki dealt with in the past.

No way I forgot about it, and it has just been argued.

Yeah, Epsilon might land a single hit with those then. They'll likely engage in h2h relatively quickly then.

Other skills or techniques that need to be mentioned:

Baki has 0.5 seconds unconscious, which is a technique, or rather more of a skill that Baki developed, which is based on the book Tor Nørretranders, which states that there is a timeframe at which humans are unconscious. Baki is reading the smallest details of his opponent's movements, which allows him to gauge the time frame that someone is unconscious and can land as many attacks as he wants.

Yeah.. but I don't know how this works here. Epsilon doesn't have this weakness, if you can call it that, and speed is equalized. I think the 0,5 second thing is some sort of weakness Baki's characters have.

She's also fairly good at dodging with Instinctive Action even if.

• Instinctive Action (It's common for trained fighters to react on instinct, without the need of conscious thought,. She is skilled enough to dodge attacks even when taken by surprise. Could dodge an invisible attack, without expecting the Invisible Blade, the artifact which generated those, to be the enemy's weapon)

Another skill that Baki has is that he can knock out his opponents simply by grazing their chin or the skin on their chin. For context, Pickle is one of the most durable characters in the series and has very thick neck vertebrae, which makes it almost impossible to actually shake his brain through traditional knockout methods. Baki bypasses this by just grazing Pickle’s chin, which knocks him down. So that’s like limited dura neg.

Next is Benda/Whipstrike, a technique that also bypasses durability by targeting the skin, which works on everyone. Shown with statements that even if you have the soft body of a woman or a honed body like a man (Chapter has some NSFW), the technique works on everyone. Retsu also says this to Hanayama (Another tanky character) that a punch to him wouldn’t damage him, but the slap would hurt him. This is shown with Pickle and Yujiro, who are the most durable characters in the series, and who succumb to the pain of the Whipstrike.

This technique also bypasses the pain tolerance of the opponent; Baki states that even through his extreme training, taking damage over the years, and sustaining a body that developed an insane pain tolerance, he couldn’t handle the pain of Benda. This is also shown with Yujiro, so that he has to flex every muscle in his body so that he won’t feel the pain.

• Limited Durability Negation, Pressure Points, Limited Disease Manipulation & Limited Poison Manipulation (By having higher magic control than Beta, and by being one of the Seven Shadows, Epsilon should be able to replicate Beta's feat of influencing her internal organs with magic making them stronger, even allowing herself to drink unboilded water despite the bacteria in it)

Epsilon has resistance to that. She can use magic on her internal organs, thus boosting their durability to her Tier. Her organs would just be x3 stronger than Baki's attacks.

Next is the cockroach dash, a technique where Baki reaches his top speed in an instant. This is something that can actually blitz opponents who are comparable to him in speed. Other than hitting his opponent in an instant, this allows him to travel great distances, Shiba stating that he easily moved 5-6 meters in an instant, which should allow him to close the distance between him and Epilson.

It helps him close the distance, but even characters way less skilled than Epsilon can keep up with FTE attacks; it's something considered normal in EIS. She should possess enough Instinctive Action and Analytical Prediction for that. We can cover this if you need.

 

[Da3ggman]

Why are we acting like literal mind reading won’t work because Baki hasn’t specifically used it on magical invisible slashes? He’s gonna read her mind, know she’s sending invisible slashes, and regardless of if they’re magic or not, he’s gonna dodge them.

 

[Zefra3011]

It won't work because apparently, he only used it to read a specific brain signal rather than constantly reading all the brain signals that happen during a fight. I asked scan if he used it on anything else other than that, and I was answered that he never did.

Does that thing work on absolutely all brain signals that can happen during a fight?

EDIT: nor that it really matters, I already conceded that if Baki has prior knowledge of them, he's likely capable of dodging them, maybe he might get hit once. The fight'll result in h2h then.

 

[Da3ggman]

It won't work because apparently, he only used it to read a specific brain signal rather than constantly reading all the brain signals that happen during a fight. I asked scan if he used it on anything else other than that, and I was answered that he never did.

Does that thing work on absolutely all brain signals that can happen during a fight?

It works on all signals that tell someone’s body to attack, regardless of the origin of said attack. “Brain signal” is just used in place of subconscious thoughts, which work even on people who can act entirely on instinct.

 

[Jigoshi]

You can perceive something moving because you see it, because you hear it moving, because you feel air moving, because you have enough prior knowledge of it to know how it moves, because he uses a familiar fighting style and you know how it works... There are thousands of ways on HOW you can read or perceive an attack, which one is it specifically? The scan itself doesn't elaborate.

Thanks, but it's again something Baki sensed. As I said before, Baki has no prior knowledge of Musashi's abilities, but still dodged the attacks. The scan is showing Baki sensing the attack and dodging it.

Yeah, but then feat-wise, that technique shouldn't allow him to do anything against magical slashes; all I can see is him reading a very specific brain signal.

Why is that? Ultra High Level Sen no Sen has always been portrayed as being able to read your opponent's intent. This is how Musashi has caught Baki's jab.

Can be done via prior knowledge of the opponent; you know he's likely to do something, and you dodge it. Baki doesn't possess any knowledge of Epsilon.

Arguing that Baki can dodge things like that without knowledge, be it consciously or subconsciously, is just illogical.

Why are you assuming Baki had prior knowledge of Musashi? He didn't even know it was him or anything about what he could do. I feel like you're making a lot of assumptions about Baki's abilities when you said you weren't too familiar with Baki.

No way I forgot about it, and it has just been argued.

Yeah, Epsilon might land a single hit with those then. They'll likely engage in h2h relatively quickly then.

It's fine, but I still wanted to present the idea that Baki could still dodge Epsilon's attacks.

Yeah.. but I don't know how this works here. Epsilon doesn't have this weakness, if you can call it that, and speed is equalized. I think the 0,5 second thing is some sort of weakness Baki's characters have.

She's also fairly good at dodging with Instinctive Action even if.

It's not a weakness, nor does it have to do with speed. There is a time gap that you're unconscious for until you're capable of reacting 0.5 seconds later. I've seen many people say that's speed-based, as in reaction speed for Baki characters, but that isn't the case. The technique itself is incredibly busted and underutilized. Just to reiterate, it's something completely separate from a character's physical speed or reaction speed.

Also, instinctive action may not work here. Yujiro is someone who also has instinctive actions, as shown with the Kaku fight, and couldn't avoid being hit by it. Given that Epsilon doesn't have prep time, I don't really think she can counter it. The technique virtually works on everyone.

Epsilon has resistance to that. She can use magic on her internal organs, thus boosting their durability to her Tier. Her organs would just be x3 stronger than Baki's attacks.

It seems that's just increasing durability; Benda bypasses durability and pain tolerance.

It helps him close the distance, but even characters way less skilled than Epsilon can keep up with FTE attacks; it's something considered normal in EIS. She should possess enough Instinctive Action and Analytical Prediction for that. We can cover this if you need.

I think it could be possible. If she had experienced once, she could counter it as Yujiro did after the second time it was used. Most characters usually cannot counter it the first time around due to its lack of acceleration.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Just a reminder, that Baki's 15 KT AP will be reduced heavily because of Epsilon's;

Forcefield Creation + Dmg Reduction (Magic) + Dmg Reduction (Soft Techniques) + Dmg Reduction (Slime armor)

Pressure Points or Durability Negation gets countered due to magic being able to reinforce organs so she will take PP and dura neg as normal dmg

Plus 0.5 thing isn't something Baki spams or starts with

 

[Zefra3011]

Idk about the brain-reading thing, but based on what has been sent, feat-wise, Baki only read a specific brain signal.

It's not a weakness, nor does it have to do with speed. There is a time gap that you're unconscious for until you're capable of reacting 0.5 seconds later. I've seen many people say that's speed-based, as in reaction speed for Baki characters, but that isn't the case. The technique itself is incredibly busted and underutilized. Just to reiterate, it's something completely separate from a character's physical speed or reaction speed.

It's geniuely how their brain works, and yes, timeframes are speed. Legit "How fast your brain does this", it's perception speed.

Epsilon doesn't have this delay.

Also, instinctive action may not work here. Yujiro is someone who also has instinctive actions, as shown with the Kaku fight, and couldn't avoid being hit by it. Given that Epsilon doesn't have prep time, I don't really think she can counter it. The technique virtually works on everyone.

I'm not even sure it's IA; regardless, even if it is, Epsilon's one is clearly superior to this feat. The latter is Baki dodging, a Yujiro attack.

Yujiro has IA by dodging > Baki can dodge an attack from Yujiro. I don't follow the argument.

It seems that's just increasing durability; Benda bypasses durability and pain tolerance.

They bypass the body's external durability, such as hitting the chin, which can shock the brain. First, it might not even work since Magic is an outright shield around you, but even if it does, Epsilon can apply the same Magic to her internals; there's no PP or Durab Neg they have that would affect her.

 

[Jigoshi]

Idk about the brain-reading thing, but based on what has been sent, feat-wise, Baki only read a specific brain signal.

Baki picked up Musashi's intent to go for an attack, which was the signal Baki picked up. For more context, Ultra High Level Sen no Sen is the advanced version of Sen no Sen, which is to attack your opponent before they attack you by reading their intent, or intercepting their attack before it is initiated. Ultra High Level Sen no Sen is such a high skill that users can pick up their opponent's intent by picking up their brain signal. This is why Musashi's new Baki was going to throw a jab at him.
So they know exactly what attack they're going to use. But even then, what does it matter if it's a specific brain signal? Or what do you mean with that?

It's geniuely how their brain works, and yes, timeframes are speed. Legit "How fast your brain does this", it's perception speed.

Epsilon doesn't have this delay.

1. What do you mean that's how their brain works? I guess it could be linked to Perception speed, in terms of processing and reacting? But that's still not the same as 0.5 seconds, which is the delay of consciousness.
2. Timeframe ≠ Speed
3. Can you provide info on why it wouldn't work on Epsilon?

I'm not even sure it's IA; regardless, even if it is, Epsilon's one is clearly superior to this feat. The latter is Baki dodging, a Yujiro attack.

How would it not be IA? His instincts made him move away before it landed. Looking back at the other IA feats, this is something Baki developed as well. In fact, when he was pretty young, too. He involuntarily dodged and attacked Gaia because of his training over the years. Given that Baki's body is reacting on its own means it's something he is doing without conscious thought. I am bringing this up because you can still act without conscious thought, but your body is still conscious (being awake). Within Baki, it states that the opponent is actually unconscious within that moment. So anything can happen.

And, I don't know how Epsilon's feat is superior. It says she was taken by surprise and evaded the blow. Yujiro was surprised by Kaku's power and thus moved away from his attack.

They bypass the body's external durability, such as hitting the chin, which can shock the brain. First, it might not even work since Magic is an outright shield around you, but even if it does, Epsilon can apply the same Magic to her internals; there's no PP or Durab Neg they have that would affect her.

It's technically internal, given Baki is shaking the brain, bypassing both external durability and internal, being Pickle's neck vertebrae and his skull. I don't know too much about her magic FF. Is she basically intangible? I still don't understand how magic increasing her durability negates Dura Neg. But still, even if it increases her internal durability, Benda attacks the external organ.

 

[Zefra3011]

Baki picked up Musashi's intent to go for an attack, which was the signal Baki picked up. For more context, Ultra High Level Sen no Sen is the advanced version of Sen no Sen, which is to attack your opponent before they attack you by reading their intent, or intercepting their attack before it is initiated. Ultra High Level Sen no Sen is such a high skill that users can pick up their opponent's intent by picking up their brain signal. This is why Musashi's new Baki was going to throw a jab at him.
So they know exactly what attack they're going to use. But even then, what does it matter if it's a specific brain signal? Or what do you mean with that?

From the previous scan, all you could tell was that Baki could read that someone was going to do something consciously and acted before that, within those 0,5 s. I tried to check the scan again, but it gives an error now, so I might be mistaken. The point is, going from that scan to "Baki can read all attack intentions and accurately know all your attacks because he can perfectly interpret brain signals" is a stretch.

1. What do you mean that's how their brain works? I guess it could be linked to Perception speed, in terms of processing and reacting? But that's still not the same as 0.5 seconds, which is the delay of consciousness.
2. Timeframe ≠ Speed
3. Can you provide info on why it wouldn't work on Epsilon?

Because Epsilon doesn't possess such a delay, nor does anyone aside from Baki's verse, as far as I can tell.

How would it not be IA? His instincts made him move away before it landed. Looking back at the other IA feats, this is something Baki developed as well. In fact, when he was pretty young, too. He involuntarily dodged and attacked Gaia because of his training over the years. Given that Baki's body is reacting on its own means it's something he is doing without conscious thought. I am bringing this up because you can still act without conscious thought, but your body is still conscious (being awake). Within Baki, it states that the opponent is actually unconscious within that moment. So anything can happen.

I mean, it doesn't tell me they have better dodging via Instinctive Action than Epsilon. I sent the feats above so people can check and have their own conclusions.

For Yujiro's one, they never said he did via instinct/intuition. I won't continue this point; the scans have been sent, and people can look at them and decide.

And, I don't know how Epsilon's feat is superior. It says she was taken by surprise and evaded the blow. Yujiro was surprised by Kaku's power and thus moved away from his attack.

I was mainly referring to the third feat. When she evades the Invisible Blades without consciously knowing it was used.

It's technically internal, given Baki is shaking the brain, bypassing both external durability and internal, being Pickle's neck vertebrae and his skull. I don't know too much about her magic FF. Is she basically intangible? I still don't understand how magic increasing her durability negates Dura Neg. But still, even if it increases her internal durability, Benda attacks the external organ.

No, it's LIMITED Durab Neg for a reason. He bypasses the durable parts and hits the internals. The attack that shakes the brain applies force to an internal organ; that's what those techniques do. By default, internals are much less durable than stuff like muscles and bones. Since Epsilon can increase her internal durability, it means that attacking her brain or heart is the same as attacking someone's bones, the most durable part of the body.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I mean... I was going to continue the discussion but I wasn't willing to deal with someone blatantly ignoring and also downplaying the feats, It's just unhealthy for both parties. But I just wanna respond real quick

Because Epsilon doesn't possess such a delay, nor does anyone aside from Baki's verse, as far as I can tell.

Every human does, hence you can get people caught off guard... It is the decision of the conscious that require around half a second to respond to something

Let's try to use this scan as an example

Here, she realizes that it's behind her based on the information that's provided to her... Could either be from the yelling or sound of the executioner

That information that triggers her brain to understand/realize what's happening and make the actual conscious decision to actually physically respond is the timeframe that Baki is somehow able to get ahold of beforehand... Actually the Baki manga explains it as well

The 0.5 s is the timeframe before you are consciously aware of something, that's what Baki is able to sense/predict within a person's decision makings before it happens (0.5 s)

Here Yujiro was able to reverse it towards Baki, by sensing and predicting Baki's prediction of utilizing the 0.5

Here's also more information

This is also why I argued Baki's instinct/senses become relative to Yujiro at the end of the fight

"I feel bloodlust", I assume it goes for everyone who knows they have several guns pointed at his head. I see it has flowery language describing instincts sharpening in extreme circumstances, which were kept even after. Someone who is used to needing his guard up will instinctively have it up naturally. Unless in Baki, bloodlust is a supernatural thing, but these scans don't prove it. It would also be useless, as in this match-up, knowing Epsilon wants to kill Baki won't magically make Baki know magical projectiles are coming at him.

You can't say it's flowery language when Gaia literally performs that feat that is stated. Bloodlust is just one mention, it also says murderous intent + other names which you've ignored, and they describe that as sensing ones intent or conscious decision beforehand

So it has nothing to do with what you said... "knowing Epsilon wants to kill Baki". Baki is 100% going to sense her actual movements 0.5 s beforehand at all times (However using the 0.5s against her won't be easy for the first time, as she has instinctive reaction, so he would need to sense and predict that first for it to be beneficial)

Baki also has the superior movements, being able to basically move at top speed instantly for better agility and to close distances, much better than Musashi who can do something similar

No, it's LIMITED Durab Neg for a reason. He bypasses the durable parts and hits the internals. The attack that shakes the brain applies force to an internal organ; that's what those techniques do. By default, internals are much less durable than stuff like muscles and bones. Since Epsilon can increase her internal durability, it means that attacking her brain or heart is the same as attacking someone's bones, the most durable part of the body.

That's assuming she realizes she's been attacked and knows to do that for Baki

 

[Zefra3011]

Yeah, no. Of course Epsilon has a delay, what I meant is that it can't be that slow for the speed they fight at. A supersonic character can perform over 150 attacks in 0,5 seconds. They would get blitzed absolutely everytime if their brain was that slow. Just no. Idk if that timeframe is a weakness or an outlier in Baki, but even for their speeds is bullshit. Our timeframe for supersonic perception speed, which is literally the time a character can notice an event happening, i.e. how fast the brain works, is around 0,002-3 s.

I'll reply later to the rest.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yeah, no. Of course Epsilon has a delay, what I meant is that it can't be that slow for the speed they fight at. A supersonic character can perform over 150 attacks in 0,5 seconds. They would get blitzed absolutely everytime if their brain was that slow. Just no. Idk if that timeframe is a weakness or an outlier in Baki, but even for their speeds is bullshit. Our timeframe for supersonic perception speed, which is literally the time a character can notice an event happening, i.e. how fast the brain works, is around 0,002-3 s.

how are you still not understanding... It has nothing to with perception speed, it has everything to do BEFORE one's perception speed

0.5 second BEFORE they precieve, before their reaction time... That is why they call it a "prediction" sensing that 0.5 s BEFORE any of their speed

This scan is really all you need to simplify it

It's the same for any precog, they have timeframes on how far you know or see in the future, that's the same concept for the 0.5 s

It's basically a greater mastery of this, being able to use the "0.5 s" exactly right before they do anything

 

[Jigoshi]

From the previous scan, all you could tell was that Baki could read that someone was going to do something consciously and acted before that, within those 0,5 s. I tried to check the scan again, but it gives an error now, so I might be mistaken. The point is, going from that scan to "Baki can read all attack intentions and accurately know all your attacks because he can perfectly interpret brain signals" is a stretch.

It actually isn't really a stretch. Baki pulling off the 0.5-second unconscious is him reading some of the smallest movements and actions to perfectly estimate that delay. It's an insanely high level of skill that has always worked for the first time around. Of course, I am not saying Epsilon can't counter it, since it's possible, but it likely won't be the case the first time around, especially if she actually doesn't know what it is. So Ultra High Level Sen no Sen, as I said, is an insanely higher level of Sen no Sen, which is to intercept your opponent's attack before the opponent initiates theirs, which is already based on reading your opponent's intent.

Because Epsilon doesn't possess such a delay, nor does anyone aside from Baki's verse, as far as I can tell.

Personally, I don't think that's enough to say it won't work just because it hasn't been presented in another series. I'll ask again, can you provide evidence on why it won't work?

I mean, it doesn't tell me they have better dodging via Instinctive Action than Epsilon. I sent the feats above so people can check and have their own conclusions.

For Yujiro's one, they never said he did via instinct/intuition. I won't continue this point; the scans have been sent, and people can look at them and decide.

I never said that Baki or Yujiro's IA is superior. Also, Baki literally said that Yujiro sensed Kaku's attack. But I suppose we can skip this then.
I was also hoping more people would add more to both sides, since you have limited knowledge on Baki, and I have limited knowledge on Epsilon.

I was mainly referring to the third feat. When she evades the Invisible Blades without consciously knowing it was used.

Gotcha. Still impressive, but looking back at the statement, it does say she was hit by it. Impressive that she still avoided most of it, but I feel like you implied that she avoided the attack entirely. Both are still IA feats, but it really doesn't matter against 0.5 seconds unconscious, since it's something that would affect anyone.

No, it's LIMITED Durab Neg for a reason. He bypasses the durable parts and hits the internals. The attack that shakes the brain applies force to an internal organ; that's what those techniques do. By default, internals are much less durable than stuff like muscles and bones. Since Epsilon can increase her internal durability, it means that attacking her brain or heart is the same as attacking someone's bones, the most durable part of the body.

The Wiki is referring to Benda, not the chin strike. Benda itself is solely external (Don't know why it's listed as limited Dura Neg when it's stated to work on anyone). The chin strike is based on speed rather than force being applied. Plus, Baki has several ways of increasing his speed, like using Hand Pocket, The Mach Punch, Cockroach Dash, and even Demon Back. But I think what's being missed out is that it doesn't take much for Baki to do this. He is barely grazing the skin, which is shaking the brain, which means it doesn't require a lot to do this.

This is why it works against the skin and bypasses internal structures. Because it's speed-based, it should work the first time around, and if Epsilon knows Baki is bypassing everything else to get to her brain. By that point, he might just KO. So far, even if it worked on external durability, I don't think it bypasses Benda because durability doesn't matter here.

 

[Jigoshi]

Other things I want to add to Baki is that Epsilon might push Baki hard in this fight to use Demon Back. Now, Demon Back has no official multiplier or anything, but it can still allow someone like Baki to adapt and become comparable to Oliva, who dominated their fight, being many times stronger, more durable, and even faster. So it's presented as something that can possibly put all stats comparable to or above his opponent when the time calls for it.

Baki has Endorphins, which increase his durability, pain tolerance, and even overall fighting performance, where he could evenly match Retsu

Damage reduction where he can turn with his opponent's attacks and either reduces how much damage he takes, or just does not take the damage (Not sure if it's on the level of Shaori)

Adrenaline: Something that Gaia used, which increases strength, speed, and durability, but is something Baki also used to induce Hemostasis to stop his bleeding (Might not stop major bleeding like Pickle can)

I also want to know about Epsilon's H2H and if there are any notable techniques that she uses.

Also..looking at her profile, Baki has a Massive Lifting Strength Advantage in comparison. That might be a problem for Epsilon if he gets close.

 

[Zefra3011]

how are you still not understanding... It has nothing to with perception speed, it has everything to do BEFORE one's perception speed

0.5 second BEFORE they precieve, before their reaction time... That is why they call it a "prediction" sensing that 0.5 s BEFORE any of their speed

This scan is really all you need to simplify it

It's the same for any precog, they have timeframes on how far you know or see in the future, that's the same concept for the 0.5 s

It's basically a greater mastery of this, being able to use the "0.5 s" exactly right before they do anything

Yeah, no. Agree to disagree. I would just repeat myself.

This is why it works against the skin and bypasses internal structures. Because it's speed-based, it should work the first time around, and if Epsilon knows Baki is bypassing everything else to get to her brain. By that point, he might just KO. So far, even if it worked on external durability, I don't think it bypasses Benda because durability doesn't matter here.

That's assuming she realizes she's been attacked and knows to do that for Baki

It's not like using PP or similar to apply force to internals are unknown in EIS.

I also want to know about Epsilon's H2H and if there are any notable techniques that she uses.

No. Only invisible slashes.

Also..looking at her profile, Baki has a Massive Lifting Strength Advantage in comparison. That might be a problem for Epsilon if he gets close.

If he pins her or similar, she can pull out a spear/blade or something out of her suit and impale him.

• Weapon Creation & Weapon Control (Numbers are able to create weapons with it, changing their shape and length at will, wielding it from wherever they want)

"It" is their slime suit.

 

[Jigoshi]

Yeah, no. Agree to disagree. I would just repeat myself.

That's fine. I suppose we can come back to that later then.

It's not like using PP or similar to apply force to internals are unknown in EIS.

I wrote earlier that it can be bypassed by speed. And I am not sure how this link really relates since it says a strike to the chin, but I would assume this is a direct strike. What makes Baki's chin attack different is that he isn't directly striking the chin. Pickle has already taken a bunch of attacks that should affect his internal but due to his physiology, he can't be knocked out by traditional means. Also, with the increasing internal durability thing, I looked at the page, and it's listed as more of increasing resistance/resiliency. Not saying she can't increase her internal durability, but I was wondering why it wasn't listed as Statistics Amplification, and that kind of makes sense. Are there other feats of increasing durability like this?

No. Only invisible slashes.

If he pins her or similar, she can pull out a spear/blade or something out of her suit and impale him.

• Weapon Creation & Weapon Control (Numbers are able to create weapons with it, changing their shape and length at will, wielding it from wherever they want)

"It" is their slime suit.

Good to note, if Baki is going to use his LS for this, his best bet would be to land a Spinning Lotus. But I see Baki not fully landing it due to spawning weapons. Seems striking is his best bet.

 

[Zefra3011]

I wrote earlier that it can be bypassed by speed. And I am not sure how this link really relates since it says a strike to the chin, but I would assume this is a direct strike. What makes Baki's chin attack different is that he isn't directly striking the chin. Pickle has already taken a bunch of attacks that should affect his internal but due to his physiology, he can't be knocked out by traditional means. Also, with the increasing internal durability thing, I looked at the page, and it's listed as more of increasing resistance/resiliency. Not saying she can't increase her internal durability, but I was wondering why it wasn't listed as Statistics Amplification, and that kind of makes sense.

I sent it because it was brought up that she must know Baki can attack her internals, so I sent something in the verse that is the same; Baki just has those things more exaggerated, but they still follow the same logic.

I'm still unsure whether they are effective or not, since Epsilon has x3 durability than Baki's Ap, and since Magic is applied as a shield around oneself basically, for him then, it would be the same as for us trying to hit the chin of an armored knight.

 

[Zefra3011]

We never went in-depth on who's more skilled, but for now, I think Epsilon takes this:

Epsilon's main advantages:

• x3 Ap and Durab.
• Nullies Pressure Points and similar.
• If Baki goes for LS, he's dead, straight up.
• Can fight longer.

Baki would need to fight someone he can barely damage, and who could fight fairly longer than he can. I don't know how in-character it is for him to go with LS, but he loses if he does, and there's no way he can figure out she can pull ***** out of her suit at will.

I don't think Baki can really take this. Even assuming he's skilled enough to take zero hits from her and have the advantage the entire fight, Epsilon can endure until he tires out and win after.

 

[Da3ggman]

Tbh I'm currently updating the verse, so in hindsight this match probably shouldn't even be done; low-key should add the outdated thing on the profiles.

 

[Zefra3011]

Isnt what have been argued not on the profile anyway? For baki.

 

[Da3ggman]

Isnt what have been argued not on the profile anyway? For baki.

Yeah, it's kinda hot ass rn. Well, some of it is on there.

 

[Jigoshi]

I sent it because it was brought up that she must know Baki can attack her internals, so I sent something in the verse that is the same; Baki just has those things more exaggerated, but they still follow the same logic.

The link needs more elaboration since I don’t see how this is similar to what Baki is doing. I said it’s going past Pickle’s durability so her durability advantage is something he can get past. Besides, I brought up if more feats can be provided since the other link is specifically making the stomach handle bacteria. Which is why it’s not statistics Amplification.

I'm still unsure whether they are effective or not, since Epsilon has x3 durability than Baki's Ap, and since Magic is applied as a shield around oneself basically, for him then, it would be the same as for us trying to hit the chin of an armored knight.

Baki characters can also selectively choose which area to transfer an attack to, meaning it's very possible to bypass the FF. I misspoke about applying the force; Baki still needs only minimal force to hit the chin, but what’s being transferred is the speed or acceleration. Baki likely could transfer the force past the magic. Even if she can increase her internal durability, it wouldn't help because it's the acceleration rocking the brain that is more of a physics thing. Because of the impulse, the motion would cause disorientation or, straight up, being knocked out, regardless of how strong the brain tissue is.

We never went in-depth on who's more skilled, but for now, I think Epsilon takes this:

Epsilon's main advantages:

• x3 Ap and Durab.
• Nullies Pressure Points and similar.
• If Baki goes for LS, he's dead, straight up.
• Can fight longer.

Baki would need to fight someone he can barely damage, and who could fight fairly longer than he can. I don't know how in-character it is for him to go with LS, but he loses if he does, and there's no way he can figure out she can pull ***** out of her suit at will.

I don't think Baki can really take this. Even assuming he's skilled enough to take zero hits from her and have the advantage the entire fight, Epsilon can endure until he tires out and win after.

I mean, we’ve been going over skills throughout the debate. I asked if she had any notable H2H or techniques, and you said no. I think it’s especially strange that OP just said Epsilon is more skilled than Baki without actually discussing it.

Do they mean more skilled in terms of magic? That would make sense, since there isn’t any magic in Baki. Hand to Hand? That’s still a bit bold considering that nothing had been discussed at the start.

Baki stat-wise, Baki has the speed advantage due to DB’s speed increase, Death Concentration, Mach Punch, and Cockroach Dash. Might get closer to durability with Endorphins and DB. Baki also doesn't really use LS in a way to overpower his opponents with raw strength, but he does use it a lot of times to use submission holds and grapples. My guess is that Baki can transfer his blow past the magic barrier to the chin, which causes disorientation, which will allow him to pull a successful Spinning Lotus.

 

[Jigoshi]

Tbh I'm currently updating the verse, so in hindsight this match probably shouldn't even be done; low-key should add the outdated thing on the profiles.

What's going on the update?

 

[Da3ggman]

What's going on the update?

Everything.

 

[Zefra3011]

I mean, we’ve been going over skills throughout the debate. I asked if she had any notable H2H or techniques, and you said no.

Because it seemed to me you were talking about specific techniques, which she lacks. Of course, she has h2h feats.

Martial Arts & Weapon Mastery (As one of the Seven Shadows, Epsilon upscales Numbers' martial arts arsenal, and her martial arts talent was considered at the pinnacle of her generation even before joining the Shadow Garden)

The OP thinks Epsilon edges out Baki in h2h, that's why he wrote she is more skilled.

Don't feel like continuing the rest since it will be argued that the match is invalid.

 

[Jigoshi]

Everything.

Whenever you make it, could you send it to the Baki General discussion? I'm all for a revision for Baki, so I definitely have a few things to add.

 

[Jigoshi]

Don't feel like continuing the rest since it will be argued that the match is invalid.

It was still a good debate, nonetheless, and was still a good way to see how Baki handles characters with impressive hax abilities like these.

 

[Da3ggman]

Whenever you make it, could you send it to the Baki General discussion? I'm all for a revision for Baki, so I definitely have a few things to add.

For sure, when parts are done l send em over for review and addition.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Because it seemed to me you were talking about specific techniques, which she lacks. Of course, she has h2h feats.


The OP thinks Epsilon edges out Baki in h2h, that's why he wrote she is more skilled.

Don't feel like continuing the rest since it will be argued that the match is invalid.

within is spelled wrong right?