STAR WARS: The MGLT problem (Canon)

[Phsccarvalho]

Hello

Well, to begin with, you need to understand what MGLT and Sublight Engine are in Star Wars.

Megalight per hour, sometimes referred to as Megalights per hour, or simply as megalight (MGLT or mglt), was a unit used to measure the relative sublight speed of starships in realspace (outer space)

Sublight engines were engines that enable starships to break through an atmosphere and travel through space below the speed of light. In order to attain speeds beyond the light threshold, a ship required a hyperdrive.

Note 1: To learn more about these concepts in detail, check and read this album containing some scans. It's important.

Note 2: If you see something like "Maximum speed (Atmospheric)" using units like "kph", it has no relation to MGLT and sublight engine. Spaceships use repulsors when inside planets, as the use of a sublight engine inside planets is prohibited because it releases radiation. Therefore, the speed/maximum speed of a spaceship on a planet and in real space are different because they use different engines that use different speed measurements.

---

Now that I have given you the essentials, I will begin.

The main problem is that we do not know how much 1 MGLT is worth, nor do we know how much MGLT is worth in general.

I brought up this discussion to evaluate which is the best/most accurate method to use.

Hagane Calc
Some time ago, @Hagane_no_Saiyajin did this calculation, which was accepted.
The results were as follows:

The sum of all of the hypotenuses equals 82.27314692px, meaning that the Twilight traveled a distance of 27538762.6796438 m

Speed of Twilight = 27538762.6796438*24/38 = 17392902.7450382 m/s or Mach 50708.17127 or 0.058016479c (Sub-Relativistic+)

Twilight's MGLT speed = 70 MGLT

1 MGLT = 248470.0392 m/s or Mach 724.4024467 or 0.000828807c (Massively Hypersonic)

I have nothing against this calculation; the issue is that I think using it would be a "calc stack" something @Legion350 also mentioned.

That's because, well, we're using one calculation to calculate something else (other calculations that depend on the speed of the ships).

EDIT: From what I have seen, the calculation also has the problem of assuming that Twilight was traveling at maximum speed (70 mglt) throughout the entire journey, something that does not appear to be stated.

Phsc Method
Well, this is my method.

Fearing that Hagane's calculation couldn't be used because it's a calc stack, I researched and discovered this using Gemini.
Final results:

1 MGLT = 7127 km/h = 1980 m/s (Supersonic+)

Since I used Gemini, please do the calculation too, because I don't know, maybe it made a mistake in converting the values.

In any case, since it only uses canonical and declared values, I don't think it would be stack overflow.

@Legion350 told me that this method had a problem; it was still too slow for traveling between systems. Even higher values with ships above 100 MGLT would still be too slow.

I told him that I am almost certain that travel between solar systems (I interpreted him saying that they are solar systems) is done with hyperdrives through hyperspace and not using sublight engines. However, this scan states that sublight engines are used for ships to navigate through planetary systems, i.e., from planet to planet. With my method, faster ships (+100 MGLT) would still take days to go from one planet to another, but whether this is a problem or inconsistent with what Star Wars has shown us, I do not know.

Tantive IV problem and Legion's suggestion
We have the text below.

“What happened?” Raymus asked as he entered the cockpit.

“Motivator finally gave out,” the ship’s pilot reported. The instrument panel before him and his copilot was ablaze with blinking warning lights. “We’re at sublight for the rest of the way.”

“Where are we?”

The copilot worked the nav console, punched up a local sensor image. “We’re close, about a quarter parsec out.”

Raymus stepped forward, directly behind the two helmsmates so that he might see better through the cockpit viewport. And there it was. Barely discernible to an untrained eye, but Raymus knew what he was looking for. From this far out, Tatooine was little more than a speck, just a tiny, pale-orange dot adjacent to two far larger, brilliant lights, the planet’s binary suns.

“How long at best speed?” They were so close, yet still so far. If the hyperdrive had held out for just a few moments longer, they would already be in the planet’s orbit. But now, forced to hobble the rest of the way at sublight…

“Eight minutes,” the pilot responded. “I think we’ll make it.” There was hope in the man’s voice, a sense of relief—the first Raymus had heard from anyone since their narrow escape from Scarif. And now he felt it, too. Eight minutes. If they could hold out just that much longer, he could get everybody to the surface and scuttle the ship; then at one of the planet’s infamously no-questions-asked spaceports he could procure another vessel, unmarked and untraceable, with which to spirit the princess to safety. For a brief moment he allowed hope back in; considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, there was a way out of this. That the princess might still be safe after all, that the stolen data might still find its way back to rebel command, that he and his loved ones might still—

The impact rocked the ship so hard it slammed Raymus against the cockpit bulkhead. Like a passing breeze, his reverie vanished as quickly as it had come, and a shrill cockpit alarm sounded.

“Star Destroyer!” the pilot exclaimed in response to the new sensor reading that had just appeared directly behind them. “They’re firing on us!”

“Man the turbolasers and return fire,” Raymus ordered. “Put everything we’ve got into the aft deflector shield, and get us to that planet!”

(Source) From a Certain Point of View (Raymus)

Well, with the knowledge you now have, you would realize that this text has... a lot wrong with it? Sublight engines do not reach or exceed the speed of light, but in this text I think anyone can see that this is far beyond the speed of light (the ship they are on is the Tantive IV, which has a maximum speed of 80 MGLT).

Normally, I would say to ignore this completely, since it is very inconsistent with everything we have been told and shown, but @Legion350 and the Star Wars fandom wiki have demonstrated/revealed something interesting about this.

Wookieepedia:

According to Raymus, the Tantive IV could cover 0.25 parsecs (about 0.81 light years) in 8 minutes at full sub-light speed (81 MGLT). This implies a strong time dilation/Lorentz contraction effect, as expected for speeds approaching the speed of light, with a Lorentz factor of approximately 1E4.

Legion350:

I think I mentioned this before, but this is possible without needing to go FTL. Looking over details about Star Wars sublight travel, which mentions relativisitic effects, this can be done by moving very-very close to the speed of light. 0.25 Parsec ~ 0.8153677 ly, so traveling that far in 8 minutes would require you travel at 53607.877620457 c, but that is if you consider them to be moving at a standard frame of time.

However, using sublight relativity you could travel 0.25 Parsec in 8 minutes if you flew between [0.99999999982251 c/299792457.94679] and [0.99999999984196 c/299792457.95262 m/s]. The first option would allow them to travel 0.2475 Parsec in 8 minutes, and the latter allows for traveling ~~ 0.26 Parsec in 8 minutes. I would need to do more math if you wanted 0.25 exactly but they use the term about in your quote anyways. This has its own issues of course, but its still possible.

- https://vsbattles.com/threads/star-...-vi-return-of-the-threadi.151958/post-7462440

I think this is also a way to find the MGLT values, since the ship was going at maximum speed and we know what its maximum speed is. However, I think this method has two problems.

1: The first little problem is that time dilation caused by relativistic effects is an implication, not something that is stated explicitly. As you have seen in all these scans and in the long text above, I think (I may have missed something, please let me know if I have) that it is never stated that traveling at these speeds using the sublight engine causes relativistic effects/time dilation like in real life.

2: While this method is good for finding lower MGLT values, since they would still be fast enough, finding higher ones... would be a problem. The Tantive IV's maximum speed is 80 MGLT, and using this method that would be 99% of the speed of light. But there are ships that reach up to 150 MGLT. I haven't done the calculations, but I think that would end up exceeding the speed of light, which is a problem, since the sublight engine theoretically (with everything that books/guides/magazines have presented) doesn't do that (only hyperdrives do that).

Rogue-class Porax-38 starfighter problem
Last but not least.

This is a problem that directly conflicts with the method I used (the second method I showed).

To recap, in my method, 1 MGLT would be 7,127 km/h.

However, the maximum (atmospheric) speed of the Rogue-class Porax-38 starfighter is 61,000 kph (I think it is the ship with the highest atmospheric speed). And why is that a problem?

Sublight engines should technically be faster than repulsors (since they are said to provide more power than repulsors and are the main engines of a ship), but the Rogue-class reaches 61,000 kph, a maximum speed that exceeds 7 MGLT using my method. There are no ships with a maximum speed of 7 MGLT, but theoretically even 1 MGLT should be faster than the maximum speed of any repulsor based on what has been said, right? Or am I wrong?

In this method, 1 MGLT would be at least 61,000 kph.

However, this method also has another problem. I don't think repulsors are used in space. Repulsors are only said to be used in atmospheric flights, never in space, besides which repulsors work by pushing against the force of gravity, so they probably only work on planets and not in space. So, an argument can be made that since they are different engines, using different mechanics, with different purposes, their speeds cannot be compared in this way.

Although there is still the issue of sublight engines providing more energy.

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Well, I think that's all.

I may have forgotten something, but I did this so we could have a more in-depth discussion about what's best to use, or new suggestions, etc.

What's best to use, or new suggestions, etc.

---

Votes:
Hagane Calc: @Therefir,
Phsc Method:
Tantive IV problem and Legion's suggestion:
Rogue-class Porax-38 starfighter problem:

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

In this method, 1 MGLT would be at least 61,000 kph. But I don't know if this is a calc stack

It’s not, that’s an official speed and not a calculated speed

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Therefir @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @KLOL506 @Dalesean027 @DemiiPowa

Would any of you be willing to help here?

 

[Therefir]

I have nothing against this calculation; the issue is that I think using it would be a "calc stack" something @Legion350 also mentioned.

I'm not sure why this would be considered calc stacking. If Twilight's speed is calculated at Mach 50,708.17 and it moves at 70 MGLT with its sublight engine, then dividing that value by 70 to get the speed of 1 MGLT is fine since it's a fixed value.

 

[DemiiPowa]

I think this can work.

I personally wouldn't say its calc stacking. Once an in-universe value for 1 MGLT is derived, it can be used as a conversion factor for ships that we know have objective MGLT ratings (like having 150mglt or whatever the case is).

As long as they don't start going crazy with extra non-impertinent values on top of what already exists.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I'm not sure why this would be considered calc stacking. If Twilight's speed is calculated at Mach 50,708.17 and it moves at 70 MGLT with its sublight engine, then dividing that value by 70 to get the speed of 1 MGLT is fine since it's a fixed value.

I think this can work.

I personally wouldn't say its calc stacking. Once an in-universe value for 1 MGLT is derived, it can be used as a conversion factor for ships that we know have objective MGLT ratings (like having 150mglt or whatever the case is).

As long as they don't start going crazy with extra non-impertinent values on top of what already exists.

But is it still usable considering we don't know how many MGLT the ship was traveling at? Yes, it has a maximum speed of 70 MGLT, but from what I saw in the calculation, there was no statement that the ship was traveling at maximum speed throughout the entire journey.

 

[DemiiPowa]

But is it still usable considering we don't know how many MGLT the ship was traveling at? Yes, it has a maximum speed of 70 MGLT, but from what I saw in the calculation, there was no statement that the ship was traveling at maximum speed throughout the entire journey.

In that specific scenario, I would say no.

The more assumptions you begin to make lessens the accuracy of any calc, and if the value we're measuring from is already calculated from values we got from in-universe, it kinda doesn't really help to guesstimate the MGLT the ship was moving at.

That's just what I would say, im not sure if others agree or not, but if you ask me specifically, then no. It sucks because you dont know if it was full speed or not, and that lack of information really harms the final yield

 

[Phsccarvalho]

In that specific scenario, I would say no.

The more assumptions you begin to make lessens the accuracy of any calc, and if the value we're measuring from is already calculated from values we got from in-universe, it kinda doesn't really help to guesstimate the MGLT the ship was moving at.

That's just what I would say, im not sure if others agree or not, but if you ask me specifically, then no. It sucks because you dont know if it was full speed or not, and that lack of information really harms the final yield

I updated the OP to mention this problem.

In that case, what do you think of the other options I mentioned?

 

[Floxy178]

But is it still usable considering we don't know how many MGLT the ship was traveling at? Yes, it has a maximum speed of 70 MGLT, but from what I saw in the calculation, there was no statement that the ship was traveling at maximum speed throughout the entire journey.

That just makes calculation a lowball.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

That just makes calculation a lowball.

I understand. What do you think about the other things I mentioned?

 

[DemiiPowa]

That just makes calculation a lowball.

I think the calc that was accepted was only done so because the math is correct, however it should not be used for a standard of finding MGLT speeds of multiple vehicles given it uses zero objective number-stats from the verse, and instead derives a value from a calc that was made from scratch; Which would be fine if it pulled that from in-universe statements (like yours does which is its benefit), but it does not. I think your method has more "concreteness", but lacks certain variables. The other method is completely arbitrary and should only be used for that particular feat.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Which would be fine if it pulled that from in-universe statements (like yours does which is its benefit), but it does not. I think your method has more "concreteness", but lacks certain variables.

Did you ping the wrong comment?
What did you mean by "lacks certain variables"?

 

[DemiiPowa]

Did you ping the wrong comment?
What did you mean by "lacks certain variables"?

The fact that we don't know if it was travelling at maximum speed or not.

Yes, i pinged the wrong message, rip.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The fact that we don't know if it was travelling at maximum speed or not.

Yes, i pinged the wrong message, rip.

My biggest concern is figuring out the best/most accurate way to determine 1 MGLT.

Regarding using this in calculations, of course, we wouldn't always know if a ship is traveling at maximum speed or not, but I think in this type of calculation we could use 3 extremes (1 MGLT / half the ship's MGLT / total ship's MGLT).

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

That's just what I would say, im not sure if others agree or not, but if you ask me specifically, then no. It sucks because you dont know if it was full speed or not, and that lack of information really harms the final yield

ChaosTheory when he suggested I make the calc said, “episode 2 of TCW cartoon has [the Twilight] accelerate to maximum in an instant and tracked by radar to move through 1/5 of the debris… in a second or something.”

 

[Phsccarvalho]

ChaosTheory when he suggested I make the calc said, “episode 2 of TCW cartoon has [the Twilight] accelerate to maximum in an instant and tracked by radar to move through 1/5 of the debris… in a second or something.”

But it is said that she reached maximum speed in the spacecraft (and maintained it)?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Fearing that Hagane's calculation couldn't be used because it's a calc stack, I researched and discovered this

Looking at the scans and doing the math, it would take the TIE interceptor 5.23809524 seconds to reach maximum MGLT velocity if it were flying from a Star Destroyer or just out in space starting at 0 velocity.

So if we multiply everything:

5.23809524 seconds * 9.8 meters/second^2 * 4240 = 217,653.33333333 m/s

This gives a value of 1,978.66666667 for 1 MGLT

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

But it is said that she reached maximum speed in the spacecraft (and maintained it)?

I think it’s more implied, but maybe check the video out in the calc

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Looking at the scans and doing the math, it would take the TIE interceptor 5.23809524 seconds to reach maximum MGLT velocity if it were flying from a Star Destroyer or just out in space starting at 0 velocity.

So if we multiply everything:

5.23809524 seconds * 9.8 meters/second^2 * 4240 = 217,653.33333333 m/s

This gives a value of 1,978.66666667 for 1 MGLT

But that's what's written at the end of the Imgur scans

1 MGLT/s = 201.9 G = 7127 km/h/s
1 MGLT = 7127 km/h = 1980 m/s.

 

[Floxy178]

I understand. What do you think about the other things I mentioned?

I don't consider myself knowledgeable person for this topic/verse do I'd prefer not commenting unless it'll be needed. I just wanted to say that whether ship moves at max speed or not doesn't matter, because assuming 70 here will give us lowball value for 1 MGLT.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I'm not sure why this would be considered calc stacking. If Twilight's speed is calculated at Mach 50,708.17 and it moves at 70 MGLT with its sublight engine, then dividing that value by 70 to get the speed of 1 MGLT is fine since it's a fixed value.

What do you think of the rest of what I said in the OP? Which one do you think is the best to follow?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

It’s not, that’s an official speed and not a calculated speed

@Phsccarvalho you saw this, right?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho you saw this, right?

Yes, I saw it. I'm waiting to see what they say about the rest.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Yes, I saw it. I'm waiting to see what they say about the rest.

Might you edit the OP though as the 61,000 kph is official and not calc stacking?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Might you edit the OP though as the 61,000 kph is official and not calc stacking?

ok

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

bump

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

But it is said that she reached maximum speed in the spacecraft (and maintained it)?

Here is the video in question:

It clearly shows that they are trying to escape the Malevolence as fast as possible, especially with getting away from the Ion Cannon charge

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I don't consider myself knowledgeable person for this topic/verse do I'd prefer not commenting unless it'll be needed. I just wanted to say that whether ship moves at max speed or not doesn't matter, because assuming 70 here will give us lowball value for 1 MGLT.

Mind trying to get other calc members onto here please?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump

 

[Epyriel]

Just discovered this thread, and I had a similar concern I was going to raise in my own thread for Legends.

While it is debatable whether this fits the technical definition of calc stacking, I think the main issue is that it runs into problems for similar reasons as calc stacking.

Namely consistency issues from stacked assumptions. I’ve seen a lot of different megalight calculations across different platforms over time, and the issue is that they consistently deviate by pretty wide margins depending on what specific reference they used.

The issue is that Star Wars media very rarely puts much effort in making the relative speed between ships consist (or accurate to stated numbers in sourcebooks) which ends up making a lot of results pretty arbitrary depending on what animation you are using.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Just discovered this thread, and I had a similar concern I was going to raise in my own thread for Legends.

While it is debatable whether this fits the technical definition of calc stacking, I think the main issue is that it runs into problems for similar reasons as calc stacking.

Namely consistency issues from stacked assumptions. I’ve seen a lot of different megalight calculations across different platforms over time, and the issue is that they consistently deviate by pretty wide margins depending on what specific reference they used.

The issue is that Star Wars media very rarely puts much effort in making the relative speed between ships consist (or accurate to stated numbers in sourcebooks) which ends up making a lot of results pretty arbitrary depending on what animation you are using.

And what about all the other methods I mentioned?

 

[Epyriel]

And what about all the other methods I mentioned?

If the verse actually treated MGLTs consistently all 4 methods seem fine at a glance. I’m just questioning if any result is usable considering how loosely the relative speeds are actually treated by the verse.

However it is important to note that your method found an acceleration (1 MGLT/s = 7123 km/h/s) not a speed as quoted in the actual thread (1 MGLT = 7127 km/h).

 

[Phsccarvalho]

If the verse actually treated MGLTs consistently all 4 methods seem fine at a glance. I’m just questioning if any result is usable considering how loosely the relative speeds are actually treated by the verse.

Well, the verse has a lot of ships, so it's good to know what MGLT means.

I just want to know which one is the most accurate.

However it is important to note that your method found an acceleration (1 MGLT/s = 7123 km/h/s) not a speed as quoted in the actual thread (1 MGLT = 7127 km/h).

I didn't understand.

Damn, I wrote it wrong, "it's not 7.123 km/h/s," it's 7.127.

1 MGLT/s = 7127 km/h/s

1 MGLT = 7127 km/h

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Fearing that Hagane's calculation couldn't be used because it's a calc stack, I researched and discovered this using Gemini.
Final results:
Since I used Gemini, please do the calculation too, because I don't know, maybe it made a mistake in converting the values.

In any case, since it only uses canonical and declared values, I don't think it would be stack overflow.

I also am not sure that this works because this is in the context of atmospheric speed and not in the outer space, TIE Fighters might as well just start going at faster speeds in space than if they were in the atmosphere. Also considering the implication that 1 MGLT should be faster than the fastest recorded Atmospheric Speed, 61,000 kph is definitely faster than 7127 kpm.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I also am not sure that this works because this is in the context of atmospheric speed and not in the outer space, TIE Fighters might as well just start going at faster speeds in space than if they were in the atmosphere.

Isn't that right? The TIE's speed in the atmosphere is 1250 km/h. With my method, the TIE's speed using the sublight engines (110 MGLT) would be 783.970 km/h. I used the TIE acceleration, which is in MGTL/s, to find out what 1 MGLT is.

Also considering the implication that 1 MGLT should be faster than the fastest recorded Atmospheric Speed, 61,000 kph is definitely faster than 7127 kpm.

That's why I mentioned that one too.

But that's more of an implication; we don't really know for sure if the minimum speed of sub-light engines is faster than the maximum speed of engines used in the atmosphere.