Spectral Swordsmanship - Bishamon vs. Honedge [Completed]

[CrackerVolley]

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"They did the slice!" "They did the Spooky Slice!" "They did the Slice!" "Now their swings have some slice!"

Honedge (obviously) and Night Warriors Bishamon are being used.
Fight takes place in Kom Ombo Temple (a.k.a. Chaka's stage in Heritage for the Future).
Speed Equal.

Honedge (Scales to Ryhorn's 1.45 MT):
Bishamon (Scales to Anakaris's 1.67 MT): 7 (noninho, imaginym, soulofcinder, Saman, Tony, Darkwolf, Ret)

Fight Theme

 

[DarkwoIf335]

Bishamon can possess people to commit seppuku. Honedge impaling itself on itself is objectively the best part of this MU.

 

[Imaginym]

Bishamon can possess people to commit seppuku. Honedge impaling itself on itself is objectively the best part of this MU.

How is that performed?

 

[CrackerVolley]

Honedge probably just got ends up stabbing it’s sheath, before snapping out of possession and feeling sad

 

[SamanPatou]

How is that performed?

Read his profile
Basically he sends forward one of his two will o' wisps to possess you, and if it lands he can force you to stab, slice, behead yourself and so on. It's not his first move though, and in-gameplay is considered as something for which he needs to spend more energy than normal, asthe more common follow-up to the possession is either getting 2 free slashes back and forth or pull you closer and shoryuken you with his sword.

Anyway, I think Bishamon's got more advantages here. Higher AP (even if not much) and LS mean a lot when it comes to a sword fight, even if you're fighting a literal sword.
Honedge's got the advantage of being inorganic, so it lacks normal weaknesses of fleshy beings, which works well against a sword, but it's not totally a game changer.
First, talking about skill with Pokemon is always weird, but we can out up a case here. Honedge might have the whole "hardwired for battle" and "lv.100" thing, but Bishamon's isn't a slouch either. The two pieces spirits that control him have arguably spent more time on the battlefield across the centuries, either against humans and monsters, and Bishamon has canonically butchered plenty of other Darkstalkers during the first game, them being monsters with their own varied set of powers. Put in there that they have a similar fighting style and both should have familiarity with such kind of opponent.

I honestly don't know how to approach Pokemon moves tainted by game mechanics such as Aerial Ace, Shadow Sneak and Night Slash (i.e. infallible, speed priority and "critical hit"), but in a more realistical approach they should be more similar to "normal" attacks, so they could be countered, blocked, avoided and so on.

Honedge stat fuckery can be troublesome, but unlike other matches, there we can argue it would expose itself while doing them, whihc is pretty much what it happens in the games too. Bishamon is crazy, bloodlusted and would be eager to murder Honedge to feast on its soul (since it's pretty much his gimmick), so he would put a lot of pressure on Honedge, and a lot of his moves are based on exploiting openings. Free hits and Seppuku via Hane Na/Karame Dama are likely to occur if Honedge tries to set up stats without making sure Bishamon is out of range or commission for the time, but even other techniques such as Oni Kubi Hineri and the other supers would be no joke. The former would especially allow Bishamon to clutch Honedge and keep squeeze it through immensely higher LS.
Bishamon does have his own stat boost, although it's temporary and mostly based on defense (bypassable by Solemn Sword, I'd say) but it's there nonetheless.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Would this count as a vote?

 

[SamanPatou]

Not yet, I want to wait for further replies.

 

[Imaginym]

Read his profile

My sincere apologies for not doing so.

Basically he sends forward one of his two will o' wisps to possess you, and if it lands he can force you to stab, slice, behead yourself and so on. It's not his first move though, and in-gameplay is considered as something for which he needs to spend more energy than normal, asthe more common follow-up to the possession is either getting 2 free slashes back and forth or pull you closer and shoryuken you with his sword.

Thank you very much.
This seems like even if it is IC, it doesn't work well for him.

Also, it might not work well against Honedge.

I honestly don't know how to approach Pokemon moves tainted by game mechanics such as Aerial Ace, Shadow Sneak and Night Slash (i.e. infallible, speed priority and "critical hit"), but in a more realistical approach they should be more similar to "normal" attacks, so they could be countered, blocked, avoided and so on.

Aerial Ace:
"The user confounds the target with speed, then slashes. This attack never misses."
Of note is Aerial Ace's name in the franchise's original language of Japanese: つばめがえし Swallow Return
Quote Bulbapedia:

• This move is based on and named after Sasaki Kojirō's "Turning Swallow Cut" sword technique, so named due to its resemblance to the motion of a swallow's tail in flight, and is usually construed as a quick upward slash followed by a second one down the same direction, same as the move's animation.

This can be seen in its Gen, 4, BW, & B2W2 Animations:

Aerial Ace (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

This is probably why Honedge (& many other Pokemon.) learn it; It is designed not only as a cutting move, but 1 modeled after a bird's movements.
My guess for the not missing is since it's confoundingly fast movement.

Shadow Sneak:
"The user extends its shadow and attacks the foe from behind. This move always goes first."
IIRC, some users have shared the notion that priority moves are moves with a higher Attack Speed than the Pokemon's typical movement speed, similar to how some characters have techniques to attack with where they are attacking faster than they would be with other techniques of their own.

Night Slash:
"The user slashes the target the instant the target lowers its guard. This move has a heightened chance of landing a critical hit."
"The user slashes the target the instant an opportunity arises. This move has a heightened chance of landing a critical hit."
This is another case of Japanese name stuff: つじぎり Crossroad Killing) Per Bulbapedia:

• The Japanese name 「つじぎり」 Tsujigiri (lit. "Crossroad Killing") refers to a way in which some samurai would test new swords in feudal Japan. This was by hiding in wait by a road (typically a crossroads, thus its literal translation) and waiting for an unsuspecting commoner (i.e. lower class, and so with far fewer rights than the samurai class) to pass by. He would then strike to kill, and in this way learn how well his new sword could cut.

Presumably, the increased critical hit rate in this case is due to the... opportunistic nature of the technique.

but even other techniques such as Oni Kubi Hineri and the other supers would be no joke. The former would especially allow Bishamon to clutch Honedge and keep squeeze it through immensely higher LS.

This is a bad idea.

Lemme go over Honedge's Pokedex entries.

X	Apparently this Pokémon is born when a departed spirit inhabits a sword. It attaches itself to people and drinks their life force.
Y	If anyone dares to grab its hilt, it wraps a blue cloth around that person's arm and drains that person's life energy completely.

Sword	Honedge's soul once belonged to a person who was killed a long time ago by the sword that makes up Honedge's body.
Shield	The blue eye on the sword's handguard is the true body of Honedge. With its old cloth, it drains people's lives away.

Considering it belongs to a person who was "killed a long time ago", I'd presume it has at least decades of experience.
However such implications might be something for a CRT.

& in fact, the profile image may be a bit misleading.

This is not the true Honedge:

If you're familiar with gameplay, you'll be closer.
(For those who can't see the video, here's a prerelease image Bulbapedia has that's handy: https://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/fe/XY_Prerelease_Honedge_unsheathed.png

But if you read the Pokedex entries, you already know.
"The blue eye on the sword's handguard is the true body of Honedge."

So its dubious if attacking the sword harms it beyond impairing its offense. Personally, it makes me wonder if it can just possess a new sword, or if there's certain rules or preferences that have to be met for it to take a new sword. After all, if the eye is the real body, then presumably neither the sheath nor the sword are.

'course, considering its idle animation in battle literally has it out of the cover, which it holds with its sash, it's pretty obvious the cover isn't the real thing.
The face on the cover is entirely fake, & doesn't even emote, as shown in Amie. The sword moves & the blue eye emotes, but not the "eyes" nor the "mouth" on the cover.

Maybe not that consequential to Bishamon, given the circumstances.

More relevantly might be that the Pokedex makes no mention of it using sword techniques (Despite how many it learns.), yet mentions in 3 of its 4 entries how it grabs people & drains their life force. 1 of those 3 specifies the arm & it doing so if they dare to grab its hilt, but the others don't specify a reason or preference of location, just that it does.

Given this ostensible emphasis by quantity, I'd say Honedge probably leads not by trying to cut someone, but by trying to wrap its cloth around them & drain their life force.
& if they try to stop it, what stops it using its sword to say, attempt to cut off their arm or deflect attacks while maintaining its grip?

In theory, Honedge might also try Autotomize, since it literally starts by unsheathing, & battles unsheathed, Autotomize is a technique involving shedding parts of one's body to speed up.

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[SamanPatou]

My sincere apologies for not doing so.

Don't worry mate, I was joking.

This seems like even if it is IC, it doesn't work well for him.

More than not working well, it's something he might not use right away since it consumes more energy than normal. It's that kind of thing you want to use when the odds of landing are likely, or try to not waste.

Also, it might not work well against Honedge.

Maybe, but Honedge could still be forced to use his ghostly sash to hold onto the sword and stab its eye or any other part.

Aerial Ace:

I'm inclined to take it as a move not that easy to react to because of its movement, tho I wouldn't go as far as to say it's infallible like in the games.
Honedge floats, so it likely replicate some bird-like motion.

Shadow Sneak:
"The user extends its shadow and attacks the foe from behind. This move always goes first."
IIRC, some users have shared the notion that priority moves are moves with a higher Attack Speed than the Pokemon's typical movement speed, similar to how some characters have techniques to attack with where they are attacking faster than they would be with other techniques of their own.

That might not always be the case, as some priority moves are such for various reasons.
Protective moves have priority because otherwise they'd be useless on some mons, just like those missing if abused (although that could be a reference to becoming predictable).
Fake Out is likely meant to make use of the mon's fast reflexes and Sucker Punch on deceptive tactics.
Priority moves based on speed (extreme speed, quick attack..) should totally be treated as speed boosts, but I'd extend the property to them only.

I believe Shadow Sneak would fall on the deception side, as the mon extending its shadow is a tricky attack difficult to predict and react to, especially because it slips past the opponent and strikes from behind.

Night Slash:

It might be skill based, not only because it's based on deception, but mostly due to the description mentioning the mon waiting for an opening, then going for a vital spot.

This is a bad idea.

I took it into account, but I doubt it would work.
This because Bishamon grabs you with a huge hand made of soul energy that spawns out of his armor-mouth (you can see it in its NA&T). Not only the hand might get a hold of Honedge as a whole, sash included, but it's absorbing powers might not work simply because it's being restrained by something that doesn't really have a life force and is disconnected by the main body.

You can argue soul have their own energy, and that the construct itself being made of soul energy might be absorbed, but it's still debatable, since the dex only mentions Honedge draining the physical bodies of living beings.

So its dubious if attacking the sword harms it beyond impairing its offense. Personally, it makes me wonder if it can just possess a new sword, or if there's certain rules or preferences that have to be met for it to take a new sword. After all, if the eye is the real body, then presumably neither the sheath nor the sword are.

I know that too, but it matters little at the end of the day. If you shatter the sword you still compromise Honedge's offense greatly, leaving it vulnerable. The eye likely grew on the sword upon its possession.

Pokemon Sword's dex entry (what a coincidence) states that the spirit inhabits the sword that killed them many years ago, suggesting that it is tied to that specific sword because of its grudge, so assuming it can possess another one is sort of a stretch.

Besides, Bishamon's sword is already possessed by a spirit, and if Honedge's spirit was to be released, Bishamon would just eat it, as he does with the souls of all his victims.

Given this ostensible emphasis by quantity, I'd say Honedge probably leads not by trying to cut someone, but by trying to wrap its cloth around them & drain their life force.
& if they try to stop it, what stops it using its sword to say, attempt to cut off their arm or deflect attacks while maintaining its grip?

Such tactic might very well backfire due to Bishamon's physiology.
The armor is sort of a mix between organic and not (is treated as a real armor, but is actually a monster morphed into it), the "body" is already possessed by the souls of the armor and the sword, while the latter is also its own autonomous being that can also move on its own, to some extend.
The armor and the sword can also dispel and reform Bishamon's body at will (the scan is in the P&A) and their huge LS advantage would allow them to yank Honedge away easily and prevent it from forcibly controlling their arm.
Bishamon could also exploit it to pull his super moves through which he shapeshifts into 6 ghostly samurais and get free hits.

All in all, Honedge's absorption is likely to work in some way, but would attempting to do that would fail or turn against it more times than not.

In theory, Honedge might also try Autotomize, since it literally starts by unsheathing, & battles unsheathed, Autotomize is a technique involving shedding parts of one's body to speed up.

That would work indeed.

 

[Imaginym]

Maybe, but Honedge could still be forced to use his ghostly sash to hold onto the sword and stab its eye or any other part.

If it's concerned about an opposing sword, it might try to block with its sheath, since the sash is usually shown holding that in battle.

I took it into account, but I doubt it would work.
This because Bishamon grabs you with a huge hand made of soul energy that spawns out of his armor-mouth (you can see it in its NA&T). Not only the hand might get a hold of Honedge as a whole, sash included, but it's absorbing powers might not work simply because it's being restrained by something that doesn't really have a life force and is disconnected by the main body.

That is troubling, if Bishamon is all undead soul energy, since Honedge is only described draining the life force of people. (IDK if the Japanese translation differs on if it's people or Pokemon.)

You can argue soul have their own energy, and that the construct itself being made of soul energy might be absorbed, but it's still debatable, since the dex only mentions Honedge draining the physical bodies of living beings.

How do souls work where Bishamon is from?

I know that too, but it matters little at the end of the day. If you shatter the sword you still compromise Honedge's offense greatly, leaving it vulnerable. The eye likely grew on the sword upon its possession.

Pokemon Sword's dex entry (what a coincidence) states that the spirit inhabits the sword that killed them many years ago, suggesting that it is tied to that specific sword because of its grudge, so assuming it can possess another one is sort of a stretch.

I'd argue it could be that Honedge just likes the sword or has emotional attachment to it, rather than being unable to change swords if need be.
But we don't know if it can or can't, nor if it's willing to do so IC.

Besides, Bishamon's sword is already possessed by a spirit, and if Honedge's spirit was to be released, Bishamon would just eat it, as he does with the souls of all his victims.

That is troubling.

Such tactic might very well backfire due to Bishamon's physiology.
The armor is sort of a mix between organic and not (is treated as a real armor, but is actually a monster morphed into it), the "body" is already possessed by the souls of the armor and the sword, while the latter is also its own autonomous being that can also move on its own, to some extend.
The armor and the sword can also dispel and reform Bishamon's body at will (the scan is in the P&A) and their huge LS advantage would allow them to yank Honedge away easily and prevent it from forcibly controlling their arm.
Bishamon could also exploit it to pull his super moves through which he shapeshifts into 6 ghostly samurais and get free hits.

All in all, Honedge's absorption is likely to work in some way, but would attempting to do that would fail or turn against it more times than not.

So currently, draining life is a toss-up if it's viable.

Where were we on Skill Level & such for Bishamon?

 

[SamanPatou]

If it's concerned about an opposing sword, it might try to block with its sheath, since the sash is usually shown holding that in battle.

The problem is that the victim is possessed by one of Bishamon's souls, which is what forces them to stab themselves, either with Bishamon's own sword or one of their own fashion.

That is troubling, if Bishamon is all undead soul energy, since Honedge is only described draining the life force of people. (IDK if the Japanese translation differs on if it's people or Pokemon.)

The giant soul that pops out of his mouth to squeeze the opponent is indeed entirely made of soul energy. His own body is weird, because the armor and sword are two separate entities that possess the human body and coordinate each other in controlling it. The human body is also unclear, because it's appearance is different from the one that human Bishamon has (different eyes, teeth...), is all white as if made of soul energy and it can be dispelled into nothing by the armor or shapeshifted into multiple ghosts. It's arguable whether it's physical or not, but for sure it's altered by the powers of the two parasites.

How do souls work where Bishamon is from?

Pretty much like the standard idea of soul, they give you life, contain your true self etc... They can linger after death in some special cases (akin to ghosts) and Darkstalkers such as Bishamon use to extract it from their victim and absorb it to gain more power. Bishamon has special control over his own souls (or rather those possessing him can control themselves) because of his nature.

I'd argue it could be that Honedge just likes the sword or has emotional attachment to it, rather than being unable to change swords if need be.
But we don't know if it can or can't, nor if it's willing to do so IC.

I'm more inclined to believe it is tied to that specific sword, due of what Sword's dex entry says and because is a recurring theme in japanese folklore for spirits to inhabit objects that have meant something for them in life, either good or bad (in this case that sword that killed Honedge's previous living body).

So currently, draining life is a toss-up if it's viable.
Where were we on Skill Level & such for Bishamon?

Imho it's a toss up, but not exaclty 50-50.
Basically everything that is known about him is in his intelligence section, which I'm pasting here. (Hannya is the armor and Kien is the sword)

Despite being constantly blinded by hatred and bloodstud, Bishamon [Hannya and Kien, more precisely] is a skilled and deadly warrior, who has slain many Darkstalkers and robbed them of their souls during the tournament held by Pyron, and briefly engaged in combat with the latter. Despite being two different entities, the armor and the sword can precisely coordinate each other in combat and make use of their unique powers in different ways. Hannya is centuries old and has spent many years on the battlefield during the age of war in Japan while donned by several hosts, including Oda Nobunaga. Kien has a similar age and has been wielded by various warriors, often together with Hannya.

I can add that he likely went against strong souls, and that the verse has many monsters of combarable strength, with the playable cast being notable examples. Of course we don't have ways to know how many or what kind of monster did Bishamon kill, but in all the cast he is perhaps the who that more than anyone craves to feast on souls, the stronger the better (in verse one's strength is the same to that of their soul)

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[noninho]

IMO there's enough argument for Bishamon
Can I say bishamon FRA, tho?

 

[Imaginym]

IMO there's enough argument for Bishamon
Can I say bishamon FRA, tho?

I don't see why you can't.
Honedge is outstatted, probably outskilled, the life force drain tactic probably doesn't work.... Really, its best chance is with the, admittedly, somewhat reasonably probable Autotomize to double its speed at the start of the fight. (IDK, if it'd do it more than once, though.)
It has other stat boosting, though IDK if it'd try it, but Honedge may not have enough opportunities to pull it off even if it thinks to use them.

So I'm leaning Bishamon for now.

Gee, a character who's name ends in "mon" defeats a Pokemon? Who would've thunk it?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bishamon FRA.

 

[noninho]

I don't see why you can't.
Honedge is outstatted, probably outskilled, the life force drain tactic probably doesn't work.... Really, its best chance is with the, admittedly, somewhat reasonably probable Autotomize to double its speed at the start of the fight. (IDK, if it'd do it more than once, though.)
It has other stat boosting, though IDK if it'd try it, but Honedge may not have enough opportunities to pull it off even if it thinks to use them.

So I'm leaning Bishamon for now.

Gee, a character who's name ends in "mon" defeats a Pokemon? Who would've thunk it?

A lot of Digimon would have thought it lmao

Anyway, bishamon FRA, as much as I love Honedge and his evos

 

[SamanPatou]

Then I cast my vote for Bishamon too.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Votes counted.

 

[Tonygameman]

Bishamon for reasons above (seems like you wrote his votes on Honedge's).

 

[CrackerVolley]

oops my b. I'll fix that and add your vote

 

[DarkwoIf335]

Bishamon FRA. Also Honedge is weak to ghosts. Don't know why that hasn't been brought up, but it's another advantage for the samurai armor dude.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Vote counted. And the ghost thing is because the wiki has a horrible time trying to figure out how type weaknesses should work.

 

[SamanPatou]

Afaik we currently consider weaknesses to standard elements as valid even intra-verse, while more specific stuff (ghost, bug, fighting, normal...) as a thing unique to Pokemon and not applicable to other verses.

 

[DarkwoIf335]

Darkwold

Wtf is a wold?

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[noninho]

bumping too

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[CrackerVolley]

bump

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Bishamon FRA

 

[CrackerVolley]

Vote counted. Grace has begun.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Grace had ended. Bishamon wins.