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Saiyan Beyond God is NOT a form.

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Bullza

Bullza

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This site has a terrible knack for closing threads before even giving someone the time to make an argument.

About the Saiyan Beyond God form this is what one mod said about it yesterday

"Actually, the ki color is different, not to mention not sensible by normal ki users, which means there is a difference."

This is completely and utterly false. First of all the Ki color is white and it is the basic aura for most characters. When the Earthlings powered up to call Goku they had a white aura. Base Goku has had a white aura in DBZ. Base Gohan has a white aura in Fusion Reborn and so on.

The aura has nothing to do with Saiyan Beyond God. In the anime there was no white aura when they fought Whis though it was there in the movie. There was no white aura when Goku destroyed Beerus' blast etc.

And finally yes, they can be sensed as Gohan and Krillin only commented on not being able to sense Goku's energy upon him turning into Super Saiyan Blue.

Saiyan Beyond God is NOT it's own form. It is Goku's permanent Base strenght after having fought Beerus or for Vegeta because of the training.
 
I agree with most of this except the aura part, auras are always different and inconsistent. The colored manga too shows auras always being different.

It is a form, but it is more of a transitional form that later is just Goku's base form.
 
Hmm I've been checking up on the information on SBG since reading this and note that you're correct for the most part about the finer details of SBG in Super.

That said, even if we ignore the auras part, we do know that there is still a difference between SBG and normal base from the fact that SSJB is just SSJ using the SBG/God ki.

So then, it becomes a case by case basis where we have to logically deduce when there are using SBG and when they're not. Which is quite frankly pretty simple.
 
That's not just what Super Saiyan Blue is. Whis explained to Goku and Vegeta about powering up their Ki internally so it wouldnt leak out, after which was when SSJB was teased for the first time. Super Saiyan Blue isn't just them turning Super Saiyan.

There's this misconception that Goku and Vegeta can switch between their regular Base power and this Saiyan Beyond God and that has never been true.

Goku's Base strenght grew from absorbing the power of God. Vegeta's grew from training with Whis. That's all that is. This is why they were able to survive "unrestrained attacks" from Beerus and obviously they wouldn't be using some Saiyan Beyond God state while changing some bed sheets while then not using it when they were fighting say Cabba.

Final Form Frieza is listed at 3B based on his performance against Base Goku whereas Cabba is listed at 4B even though he was equal to Base Vegeta. That makes no sense.
 
I understand why Frieza get that rating but not Cabba and the like. Because they want Frieza dead, but they don't want Cabba dead. Regardless, it wouldn't make sense for Cabba to be 3-B without knowing what a Super Saiyan is, let alone a Super Saiyan God.
 
The real cal howard said:
I understand why Frieza get that rating but not Cabba and the like. Because they want Frieza dead, but they don't want Cabba dead. Regardless, it wouldn't make sense for Cabba to be 3-B without knowing what a Super Saiyan is, let alone a Super Saiyan God.
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But it make sense that he is stronger than Majin Boo and Cell without knowing what SS2/3 are?
 
It does, actually. According to what I remember, Cabba had a large amount of potential similar to Gohan
 
Yes! That's exactly what it implies.

Final Form Frieza was shown to be inferior to Base Goku, in the movie being unable to even hit him. Base Cabba was said to be an even match for a Base Vegeta who'd since trained for 3 years the ROSAT.

Remember he's a Saiyan from a another universe. They could have entirely different trained methods. They don't have tails so they've evolved differently.
 
Super Saiyan God Goku was listed at 3B. This site is going off of the knowledge that Saiyan Beyond God is a Goku's Base state after having absorbed the power of God and so it's also 3B.

Final Form Frieza proved to be somewhat comparable to Base Goku and so he is also listed at 3B.

All of that is just fine, no problems there at all.

The problem is that this wiki lists Frost, Cabba and Magetta all at 4B even though all of them are actually shown to be superior.

Vegeta felt the need to transform into a Super Saiyan in order to finish Frost off. Magetta was shown to hold his own against Super Saiyan Vegeta and Base Cabba was shown to be on par with Base Vegeta.

SSJ2 Trunks while holding back was shown to be able to push back SSJ2 Goku while SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge the equivalent of Base Vegeta.

SSJ2 Trunks was able to react to SSJB Vegeta's speed and withstand his attacks whereas SSJ Cabba was knocked out in one blow before he knew what happened.

And finally he was shown to be able to hold his own against Zamasu and Black.

Yet all of these are listed at being weaker, significantly weaker, than Final Form Frieza and they aren't.
 
Well again, going off SBG isn't Goku's normal base, then it would make sense.

What doesn't make sense is: (If SBG is base)

A- Trunks being on the level of the Gods (Also, as for the Goku vs Trunks, Vegeta even notes he wasn't going full power as a SSJ3, heck, he didn't even need suppressed SSJ3 for Goku Black, who is much stronger than SSJ2 Trunks

B- Kabba being on the level of Gods too. (While it is possible due to evolutionary line, it hasn't been implied whereas potential has been stated.)

C- Frost being 3-B (According to Toryiama, Frieza and King Cold were mutants (hence their strength), Frost was never stated to be like them and if he was, then he should have Golden form already (And completely stomp Goku and Vegeta)
 
SBG = Normal Base means more inconsistencies.

SBG =/= Normal Base is a lot more consistent.

And again, it wouldn't make sense for SBG as a concept to exist is they were the same.
 
That only refers to it as a transformation in regards to the Dragon Ball Heroes card game because of how that works. It's not a transformation for the series but it counts as one because of the way the game works.
 
"A- Trunks being on the level of the Gods (Also, as for the Goku vs Trunks, Vegeta even notes he wasn't going full power as a SSJ3, heck, he didn't even need suppressed SSJ3 for Goku Black, who is much stronger than SSJ2 Trunks"

Trunks is that strong because the plot calls for it. It's not the first time the series has done this. Piccolo at the start of the Androids was comparable to a Super Saiyan, it's the same principle.

Vegeta didn't say Goku was holding back as a SSJ3 against Trunks. He was holding back from not using his Blue form.

"B- Kabba being on the level of Gods too. (While it is possible due to evolutionary line, it hasn't been implied whereas potential has been stated.)"

There's nothing wrong with that. He's not a Universe 7 Saiyan so he can be at what ever level the plot calls for which in this case was as strong as Vegeta who was as strong as he was from training aswell.

"C- Frost being 3-B (According to Toryiama, Frieza and King Cold were mutants (hence their strength), Frost was never stated to be like them and if he was, then he should have Golden form already (And completely stomp Goku and Vegeta)"

Toriyama's statement was of course said before Frost had even been throught up. The same would surely apply to him also with his mutation just being superior. Just because he's stronger than Frieza doesn't mean he has to have God form.

Trunks doesn't have SSJ3 form and he's stronger than SSJ3 Goku back in the Buu saga.
 
"And again, it wouldn't make sense for SBG as a concept to exist is they were the same"

Saiyan Beyond God was purely a term created for Dragon Ball Heroes to separate the ordinary Base Goku from the new Goku in the new outfit who had absorbed the power of God.

In Base form he is now as strong as Super Saiyan God because of what happened in the Beerus fight.

He doesn't switch from not having the power of God to having that power. He always has that power, that's what has been consistently shown.

- Vegeta had to train for 6 months just to catch back up to his new found strenght.

- They can withstand Beerus' unrestrained attacks

- They can fight Final Form Frieza even though in his first form he's stronger than Gohan and Piccolo.

- He's able to do 50,000 push ups in a weighted suit that puts more pressure on the body than the Gravity Machine that Vegeta previously used Super Saiyan for.

- SSJ3 Gotenks can't make him budge.

- He's able to fight well against Beerus in costume and take punches to the face.

It's just his permanent Base strenght now. It's not something he turns on or off like Kaioken or Super Saiyan.
 
"Piccolo being as strong a super saiyan is very accurate even in the android saga"

He went from being significantly weaker than Base Goku to comparable to a Super Saiyan in just 3 years simply because the plot called for it.

The idea behind that is no different from Trunks becoming comparable to Super Saiyan God because the plot called for it.

Or Goku with a power level of 260 going to the lookout, training for 3 years there and then another 5 years later his power level is only 400 but then Yamcha with a power level of 177 goes and trains on the lookout for one year and now his power level is well 1,500.
 
For your DBH example, the very fact they acknowledge SBG isn't Base is the proof here.

A- Using plot as an excuse? Really?

Piccolo was above Androids #19 and #20 who were a lot below a healthy SSJ. I don't know where you got SSJ = Piccolo.

B- Again, plot?

And this argument can also be used for the separate bases, just saying.

C- He kinda does. Unlike SSJ he doesn't any mental requirements for GF, and Frieza didn't try to achieve a new form, just to get stronger, which would apply to Frost.

Trunks never fought Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku? Although, Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku could be weaker due to Trunks getting Zenkai a lot.

@Bullza PLs are inaccurate

Also, Beerus > SSBKKx10 Goku, so base Goku surviving that attack is impossible unless he is restricted.
 
SomebodyData said:
For your DBH example, the very fact they acknowledge SBG isn't Base is the proof here.
A- Using plot as an excuse? Really?

Piccolo was above Androids #19 and #20 who were a lot below a healthy SSJ. I don't know where you got SSJ = Piccolo.

B- Again, plot?

And this argument can also be used for the separate bases, just saying.

C- He kinda does. Unlike SSJ he doesn't any mental requirements for GF, and Frieza didn't try to achieve a new form, just to get stronger, which would apply to Frost.

Trunks never fought Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku? Although, Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku could be weaker due to Trunks getting Zenkai a lot.

@Bullza PLs are inaccurate

Also, Beerus > SSBKKx10 Goku, so base Goku surviving that attack is impossible unless he is restricted.
Click to expand...
Ehhh.... power levels are irrelevant after Frieza arc. Before that they are quite relevent.
 
Heroes doesn't have Saiyan Beyond God as not being Goku's Base. The card explains that it's his Base power after having absorbed the power of God.

Technically there are two bases. There's his ordinary one and then the one where he'd absorbed the power of God. He doesn't switch between them though.

A. Yes really, the plot calls for these things to happen. It's not being logical, if Trunks is supposed to be as strong as Goku then he just is. It was Krillin who compared Piccolo to a Super Saiyan.

B. Not really. We know that Base Cabba is as strong as Base Vegeta. We know Base Vegeta is as strong as Base Goku. We know Base Goku got stronger from 3 years in the ROSAT. We know Base Goku is stronger than Final Form Frieza.

So Base Cabba > Final Form Frieza.

C. SSJ2 Trunks is comparable to SSJ2 Goku. Base Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks is joins stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Of course Trunks is stronger than Buu saga SSJ3 Goku.

Also even though they were Beerus' unrestrained attacks they still weren't his biggest and best attacks.
 
But what about piccolo he couldn't possibly be as strong as final form frieza in 6 days also if that is accepted then base Gohan is stronger then final form frieza
 
Huesito88 said:
But what about piccolo he couldn't possibly be as strong as final form frieza in 6 days also if that is accepted then base Gohan is stronger then final form frieza
Click to expand...
Frost was considerably weakened by his fight with Goku

So Piccolo could more like "3-C" rather than "3-B"
 
You can't have 3-C out of scaling to 3-B. Considering that 3-B is just "below 3-A" in this context, Piccolo would have to be trillions of times weaker to be 3-C.
 
You're right. @Bullza

"Technically there are two bases. There's his ordinary one and then the one where he'd absorbed the power of God. He doesn't switch between 'them' though."

That really doesn't make any sense, can you explain?

A- This was when they were fighting Gero right? Should I remind you that the other Super Saiyans that were there were a weakened Goku and a Vegeta not even using full power at all, his comparison would be immensely weaker.

B-Only if we consider SBG to be non-existent and the base to be SSJG level.

And you know, ignore logic placing Kabba leagues above characters he shouldn't be.

C- See that actually makes some sense thanks to large amounts of Zenkai Trunks got.

But the gap between SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJG level is basically impossible to achieve even with a year worth of zenkais.

So all in all, its also much more consistent if SBG is considered a different base.
 
Yeah and Gohan being 3 c makes no sense piccolo would get 1 shoted and at most I can see him being weaken by 20 maybe 30 but trillions no no no way
 
^ This too

I honestly can't see any evidence for SBG = Perma Base at this point.

SBG =/= Perma Base Evidence

+ Consistency

+ Its very existence

SBG = Perma Base

- Inconsistency

- The very existence of SBG
 
I agree with SomebodyData. We should probably close this thread.

Also, if this is mot a forbidden topic already, it should be. I am extremely tired of that it is consistently brought up over and over.

The Dragon Ball Super writers have created enormous comparative power level inconsistencies, and we are doing our best to select the least bad option.

Bullza, you are starting to become a general nuisance. I would advise you to immediately and permanently quit it.
 
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