Reinhard's Base revision.

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay.........apparently, we may need to revise Beast-dono's stats....i think.

Long story short, Trexalfa29 and VenomElite recently clarified in a Vs Thread involving Reinhard that him having all 8 swastikas opened actually meant that he gets ascended/boosted to Hadou God form by default rather than boosting him to Planet level as someone of our community here, who CREATED his page, didn't quite get this detail right at all before making his page here (And no, that's not me that made it, it was somebody else that did it). -_-

Meaning? We have to do something about this as this can mean that he'll effortlessly stomp anyone with all 8 opened in a match, which someone pointed out how ridiculous it is for someone to go straight up to as high of a tier as 1-A.

Thus, though i will be asking the ones who more or less actually played/read the VN of DI (i.e EMC, VenomElite, and Trexalfa) to help us try to solve this issue, i think that we may need to disregard having the swastika's on the page and just set him to one tier. For one thing, Reinhard one-shotting Methuselah is a legit feat, especially as he was the only one that didn't get affected much (aside from having a sizable crack on his face) by the latter and was looking pretty fine and later on proceeded to one shot him. Another that will likely keep his stats as 5-B is that he's stated by WoG to be comparable in power to this guys summons who are planet busters AFAIK (this one, Trex EMC and Venom are likely to be able to help clarify this if possible).

But overall though, i would like to have this taken cared of so that we may not have to get into this anymore every time a "Reinhard with no swastika's" match gets brought up and Trex, EMC or VenomElite don't have to point this a lot (Not that they are wrong though. They are the only ones here on the whole wikia that's read the series for reals, after all).

Thoughts on this, anybody?

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

I think it should be something like this

Tier 6 Beast = changed from base to Interview or pre Berlin

Tier 5 Beast = changed from 8 Swastikas open to base or post Berlin or pre Godhood

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

In two Base key's, right? But wait, where would the Tier 5 rating reason will be at? Cause Trex had said in that one Vader vs Beast match that Interview Beast isn't as strong as his DI self but not by a lot iirc....

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Hmm, base would be confusing too huh ? Should we just use post Berlin instead ?

Interview Beast isnt as strong as Beast in its sequel was bcoz it took place before Berlin, which mean that Beast's soul count at that time wasnt as much as his soul count in DI

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well the problem is that, for some reason, Masada made a sort of comment or something (idek) of Beast being compable to Amakasu's summons. Which if you read and follow the OP right, they are supposed to be Planet Busters....

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

That Masada WoG was probably pointing at Briah Beast in its full glory before his Godhood

And IIRC that WoG also exist even before Interview is a thing. To apply that WoG to Interview Beast would cause a major contradiction

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm.....well, i got nothing then if we can't use that. And now that you mention it, i did saw someone in a Masada thread off site that said that....or was it EMC? Anyways, do we rate Briah Beast as 5-B then if that's the case, and have him at base alone as 6-A?

Then again, it's better to get Venom, EMC, and Trex all here to help resolve this issue of where to put Base Beast at/

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Well, i didnt say that we cant use it. What i meant was that we cannot apply that to Interview Beast but we can use it to scale DI Beast to Captain's summons

How does this sound Cross ?

Base at the time of Interview

Base at the time of DI

Is it too long ?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Oh....well actually, it can work for DI Beast on scaling him to Cap Amakasu's summons, yeah.

And Interview Beast would scale to him one-shotting Methuselah.

Still, i'll get VenomElite, EMC, and Trexalfa in case they have something that may otherwise be different to what you may thought here.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

well @fab that should be fine really and so if Kemono in Briah is 5-B and other base is 6-A then i guess so EMC, venom and trex should be able to help more

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I've sent all three of them with a message to here. Hopefully they'll help in some way about this problem.

So far, Fab's idea seems pretty good to me. Having Reinhard as 6-A during the time of Interview, and perhaps 5-B during before his Godhood thing.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Just before i go AFK coz im still in school

I think this will be a somewhat relevant info on Beast tier

Remember that Gladsheimr description that said it is placed outside of reality ? So, theres this passage that let souls from Gladsheimr to manifest in the real world. Problem is, massive souls like Beast and the three commanders are too big to fit this passage. Thats why they can only manifest partially as shade/avatar or in their nerfed form.

Here's where the Swastika comes in. One of the purposes of Swastika (and by extension, Zonnenkind) is to expand this passage so massive souls like Beast and the three commanders could fully manifest. So, what this mean is that 8 Swastika Beast is just Beast in his ORIGINAL power rather than getting a boost. So, in a way, we can call 8 Swastika Beast as his base form no ?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I have to go now as i have school in the morning later on my end but i'll leave a comment to that.

Thing is, 8 Swastikas Reinhard is where he ends up ascending to Godhood tho. At least to what Venom and Trex recently clarified earlier.

But then again, it is best to wait for them if they can tell us of what to do Beast. The least we can do is just always scale him from Methuselah. That and he's vastly more powerful than all of the LDO combined really. At least that's another hing of him so.....yeah.

 

[VenomElite]

The Swastikas are like...anchors? Like there is a connection between them and Reinhard's powers. It is the vital difference that allowed the protagonists to escape from being wiped out after all. And Zonnenkind is like...the hub? The narrative says it's more like the "core" but my understanding is that Zonnenkind is the link between Reinhard and the souls bound to the swastikas.

Yes, yes....that will suffice for now. Although central processor will be better than hub.

Although about Swastikas....rather than just simple anchors, it's better to think of them as fueling points with the fuel being the souls of whatever L.D.O member died to open that particular Swastika. As for fuel for what...It's for the Beast to be boosted to Atziluth.

If the Swastikas allow for Reinhard to just materialize then what was the first Ark for? I think Reinhard being able to bring Gladsheimr to the world is part of his boost to Atziluth. Some call it making his Briah have infinite duration.

 

[VenomElite]

Also, Arche Heilige - Goldene Eihwaz Swastika is a Pseudo Atziluth, which requires a large number of souls. The essence of this Atziluth is that Isaac is in a permanent location (Castle Wolfsburg), Rea is located in this universe, and allows energy through herself to flow into the world of "permanent bases", thereby allowing Reinhard to completely manifest in this universe, as well as incorporate his castle in this universe. Enabling this requires a lot of effort and the L.D.O sacrificed the whole population of the city and there are 8 swastikas, as Reinhard is so strong that one of his manifestation requires an enormous amount of spiritual energy. Subsequently, this allows Reinhard reach Atziluth Dies Irae and become a Hadou God.

The end process, the point of it all, is for Reinhard to reach Atziluth. Everything else is just the steps to achieve it.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

so Rea needs some editing?

 

[VenomElite]

Yeah for Goldne Eihwaz Swastika.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Aside of Rea atm, what of Reinhard's base here Venom? It seems that if boosting him to Atzulith level is something that actually happens rather than having him go at Planet level, should we just take out the mentioning of it and just work something out cause if WoG puts him at 5-B through power comparison of Captain's summons (even if it's through Briah power), we need a sort of key to put something on him there then if he were to stay at Tier 5.

 

[VenomElite]

Reinhard is 6-A in IkaBey and 5-B in Dies Irae. I already made my case above why the swastikas boost Reinhard to Atziluth using Goldne Eihwaz Swastika.

 

[VenomElite]

Reinhard with all 8 swastikas open = reaching Atziluth via Goldne Eihwaz Swastika ritual.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Quite the change from Continent to Planet level. ^^

And yes, you and Trex have made clarifications on the swastika system making him go Atzuluth.

The reasonings for his tiers will more or less have to be changed then since we'll be taking out the mentions of the swastikas thing....

 

[VenomElite]

 

[VenomElite]

^I'm not so sure about that. 5-B refers to his Briah, while in IkaBey he one-shotted Methuselah using Yetzirah. If the other characters are tiered according to their Briahs, Reinhard should just be 5-B at base.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Mmm...gotta work on DI Beast's key then...

IkaBey Beast key in base is good and straightforward enough, really. The 5-B one for Reinhard, probably need a bit more help on. ^^;

 

[VenomElite]

Why does he have aa IkaBey key to begin with? That was Reinhard using Yetzirah only.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Uh....well the thing is that as of now, the tiers for Reinhard are him at 6-A and 5-B with the 8 S's (now likely not something we can use considering the clarification for what they actually do).

This is starting to get more complicated than what i imagine. ^^;

Are you suggesting we should put Reinhard as 6-A normally, 5-B with his Briah?

 

[VenomElite]

Yes. It's like how Ren is comparable to the Three Commanders in Briah Finale mode and not normally with Yetzirah or his Gudou Briah. But everyone else seems to just have tiers for Briah (except Liza who has only Yetzirah). Why not Reinhard?

For example Beatrice only has two tiers, one for base Beatrice and another for legion reincarnation. Her first tier is based off Briah, not Yetzirah. Same for the other characters.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Same thing with Rot as well, but nobody cares about him. ^^;

Hmm, alright. But to me, that sounds like this would only affect him Tier and AP-wise. Or would his Briah make him go all Planet level in all thats? Cause if he in Briah is comparable to Captain Amakasu's summons, he probably likely needs to be planet level all around.....right? No?

 

[VenomElite]

Yes. Pretty much.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay, got it. Just making sure~

 

[VenomElite]

Just to recap:

Reinhard was 6-A because of one-shotting Methuselah, but he was only in Yetzirah. He is 5-B because of Word of God statement powerscaling to Amakasu's summons but that was referring to Reinhard normally.

I mean logically a Planet level character should be able to one-shot a Continent level one.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Not necessarily though? You can one-shot another character and still be within the same tier group AFAIK.

Anyways, i think we're right about on the right track here. But i have to leave for now.

So from where i'm looking at, and just to remind myself, we'll be having Reinhard as this?

"AP: Continent level (reason for this on his page), Planet level with Briah (reasoning for this on page)"

 

[VenomElite]

Yes

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay i'm back now.

So i just edited the page now. How does it look now? With changing from 8 Swastikas to Briah?

 

[VenomElite]

Better.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

NOICE. Other than doing some touch ups on it, i think we're right about done here. ^^

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

That looks better ^^