Reality Quest CGD - Disagreements on LS calculation

[CatLover313]

In this CRT, my speed feat and this LS feat are being questioned. Going to provide summaries on the For's and Against's, any changes that people would like to make on the paragraphs, do feel free to correct it and I'll add it.

Glass Ejection Speed Feat (Swordsman saves the Queen)

• For (Me, Pettam33, and Mercury009): The calc uses an engineering research paper (Zhang, Hao & Ma, 2013, International Journal of Impact Engineering) measuring glass fragment ejection velocity from windborne debris impact on laminated glass. The paper provides both a real lab-measured value (~30 m/s, tracked by a high-speed camera during a physical wood-block impact test) and a simulated upper-bound value (~70 m/s at the highest tested impact velocity of 35 m/s). The justification of the 70 m/s theoretical speed usage was due to the character's own established Attack Potency tier (Small Building–Building level) converted to joules, compared against the calculated Joule values of the experiment (4900 Joles) for the justification of the speed usage. The panel sequence in question shows charge-up → contact → explosion with no dialogue, cutaway, or visual time-skip indicator between panels, which under standard normal reading conventions (the same convention used broadly in speed-evading and reaction feats across the wiki) supports reading the swordsman's rescue as occurring within the timeframe rather than requiring an unshown gap.
• Against (Aksh_sky): One of the objections is scale mismatch with the source paper's tested glass, which was 3mm float glass in a laminated configuration, while the glass in the feat is estimated to be much higher, thicker than anything tested. The paper itself states that ejection speed is thickness-dependent, but does not establish which direction that relationship trends at extreme thicknesses, making direct application of the 70 m/s figure beyond the paper's experiments. On the same impact-to-ejection approach, the opposing position argues that not all glass experiencing a given amount of energy ejects at the same speed, since actual fragment velocity depends heavily on how much of that energy is absorbed by breaking the glass itself and the mass of the shards, which are very small in the experiment. Another objection was that the absence of an explicit "contact" panel (i.e., no panel showing the fist making contact with an already-cracking pane) leaves the exact start of the ejection timeframe unquantifiable, and that no evidence rules out the swordsman having already been present or having moved during an unshown interval.

LS Feat (Bujin compresses a barbell — height/scaling revision)

• For (Pettam33 and Mercury009): The recalculation uses Bujin's new panels to calculate his height as he is standing next to another character with a confirmed height of 1.8 meters, rather than the original calculation only using 200 cm tall from his foot to shoulder, and is against using the average heights of unnamed background characters. The panel selected for the barbell-width measurement was chosen specifically because the object's proportions are drawn relative to Bujin's hand in that panel, reducing angle/perspective distortion compared to alternative panels. There were some other pixel calculations that were made to show that the height of the character is consistently way above the 250 cm height range (Could Mercury and Pettam add said panels below?).
• Against (Kakistan and Aksh_sky): Opposers are arguing that the panel to calculate Bujin's height is not reliable because XXX (the person with a canon height of 1.8 meters) is slouched. There are also some other panels that can be used to calculate Bujin's height to be much lower than 250 cm (Kakistan and Aksh, please provide the pixel calculations below), such as using Gongcheol, who has a confirmed height estimate of 190 cm (measurements below). They're arguing for either a different panel calculation for Bujin's height or to use one of the random people's/Gongcheols average heights to calculate the barbell length.

If any side wants to expand the paragraphs, feel free to, and I'll add them. However, since a lot of the discussion led to circular arguments in the CRT, I just put down the main points of what I believe each side was pushing for. Though if you want to add panels/pixel calc's, add them down in replies instead.

Agreements:

Disagreements: WindyAttack (Agrees with Aksh)

Others: DarkDragonMedeus (Staff; doesn't see issues but believes CGM should look)

 

[CatLover313]

For my opinion on the 2nd calculation, I've done some measurements on Bujin (comparatively, only like 2-3) and didn't get conflicting results to the feat's height, but in my honest opinion, rather than trying to use any inconsistent height for a character, if changes are needed, I would rather use the average barbell width. Using this site, it was 2.85 cm for Olympic Men's barbell widths.

Edit: Actually, since it's a squart barbell, diameters can be higher (i.e. 3.2 cm)

 

[Kakistan]

Just some minor details: 1. You should imo directly link the original calc for the barbell feat. 2. Bujin’s height was ~240cm in original, the 200cm was for his shoulder-height via the mugshot. 3. Please add that I believe Gongcheol (a character who consistently always stands straight) would be better for measuring Bujin as they also stand right next to each other.

I’ll provide my panels when I get to my computer later.

 

[CatLover313]

Just some minor details: 1. You should imo directly link the original calc for the barbell feat. 2. Bujin’s height was ~240cm in original, the 200cm was for his shoulder-height via the mugshot. 3. Please add that I believe Gongcheol (a character who consistently always stands straight) would be better for measuring Bujin as they also stand right next to each other.

I’ll provide my panels when I get to my computer later.

Corrected my mistake and added the rest

 

[Aksh_sky]

Idk but why's he writing on my behalf regarding negation of the calcs because ngl, they aren't summarised well or even written properly. I'll give better args.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Aksh, please provide the pixel calculations below), such as using Gongcheol, who has a confirmed height estimate of 190 cm (measurements below). They're arguing for either a different panel calculation for Bujin's height or to use one of the random people's/Gongcheols average heights to calculate the barbell length.

I'll provide every better pixel measurements against the unreasonable ones. I actually have many pixel scans shown in there that could measure the barbell more accurately.

I also disagreed on the usage of Olympic barbell because there's no proper justification of that.

Anyways I'll summarise both args of mine properly.

 

[Mercury009]

Just preparing some images and counterpoints of the suggestions provided in the other CRT. I'll wait for Aksh to post his points since he deems them not written properly.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Just preparing some images and counterpoints of the suggestions provided in the other CRT. I'll wait for Aksh to post his points since he deems them not written properly.

It lwk might take some time.

 

[CatLover313]

Bump

 

[Aksh_sky]

Bump

The args of these CGD kinda sucks, so I'll make a CGD myself including more calcs.

I'm already planning a crt regarding RQ so I'll do ts after the crt.

 

[CatLover313]

The args of these CGD kinda sucks, so I'll make a CGD myself including more calcs.

I'm already planning a crt regarding RQ so I'll do ts after the crt.

You can just send your disagreements and I said I'd just edit/put it in if there were any disagreements on the summary. Do some quick counteraguments, rebuttals, and then ask for CGM's so we could just conclude this....

 

[Aksh_sky]

You can just send your disagreements and I said I'd just edit/put it in if there were any disagreements on the summary. Do some quick counteraguments, rebuttals, and then ask for CGM's so we could just conclude this....

Nop, later maybe. I'm planning to add more calcs. For now I'm working in a RQ crt regarding boosters so yeah.

 

[Mercury009]

The way you're approaching this comes across as unnecessarily dismissive. Someone took the time to compile the discussion so everyone could engage with the arguments more easily, and responding with things like "the args kinda sucks" without actually explaining what's wrong isn't very constructive.

If you believe your position was summarized inaccurately, then point out the specific inaccuracies. If you think the calculations are wrong, explain why they're wrong. Simply saying you'll make a better CGD or that you'll address it later doesn't engage with the arguments that are already here.

I think the discussion would be more productive if we focused less on criticizing how the thread was put together and more on the actual arguments. If there are specific problems with the summary or the calculations, pointing them out directly would help move things forward instead of trying to push them back.

 

[Aksh_sky]

The way you're approaching this comes across as unnecessarily dismissive. Someone took the time to compile the discussion so everyone could engage with the arguments more easily, and responding with things like "the args kinda sucks" without actually explaining what's wrong isn't very constructive.

I do appreciate the efforts but see, I've already stated before that I'd make a cgd myself including few other calcs, and neither i have enough scans for my counterargs to raise questions regarding those other calcs. Now yes, i tone was dismissive and sounded immature to say the least but i just stated it in a cadual way to show that my arguements were presented inaccurately and i belive i can explain my position better.

If you believe your position was summarized inaccurately, then point out the specific inaccuracies. If you think the calculations are wrong, explain why they're wrong. Simply saying you'll make a better CGD or that you'll address it later doesn't engage with the arguments that are already here.

Again, it'll get more complicated to include other calcs in the cgd that's not mentioned in the OP.

I think the discussion would be more productive if we focused less on criticizing how the thread was put together and more on the actual arguments. If there are specific problems with the summary or the calculations, pointing them out directly would help move things forward instead of trying to push them back.

I mean, i can see your point but you see i can actually make recalcs of those feats as it's stated by most mods that it's preferable to make a recalc calcs that you think are wrong and then justify it in a seperate CGD explaining how it should be implemented. It'll also be more clean if i made a seperate cgd and put all those args in a sorted manner.

 

[CatLover313]

We can’t just discuss these two calculations in question, the same ones causing a CRT to be paused? If you want to make a CGD in the future, that’s fine, but if a CGD is directly linked to a paused CRT, let’s just discuss them and conclude. I already said multiple times in the original post and comments, if you’re dissatisfied with my summaries, just send a summary of your own and I’ll replace it.

 

[Aksh_sky]

We can’t just discuss these two calculations in question, the same ones causing a CRT to be paused? If you want to make a CGD in the future, that’s fine, but if a CGD is directly linked to a paused CRT, let’s just discuss them and conclude. I already said multiple times in the original post and comments, if you’re dissatisfied with my summaries, just send a summary of your own and I’ll replace it.

K then, if u say so then I'll just include the calcs discussed in this particular OP right here nly and will provide proper summaries and arguements for you to copy later meanwhile I'll make another cgd in the future for other calcs.

 

[CatLover313]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sounds like you might want to be asking more Calc Group members, but I personally see no issue to my knowledge.

 

[Kakistan]

I'll send the panels I found for Gongcheol & some inconsistencies, unfortunately I accidentally stalled. I have no pixel calcs of my own

XXX's consistency in being hunched over & the inconsistency in heights

XXX & Gongcheol & Bujin's side and front

 

[CatLover313]

Sounds like you might want to be asking more Calc Group members, but I personally see no issue to my knowledge.

Yeah, been asking around, thought of still trying with you. Will wait for CGM opinions themselves but still appreciate the comment

 

[Mercury009]

I'll send the panels I found for Gongcheol & some inconsistencies, unfortunately I accidentally stalled. I have no pixel calcs of my own

XXX's consistency in being hunched over & the inconsistency in heights

XXX & Gongcheol & Bujin's side and front

The first link is dead, the second works though

 

[CatLover313]

Bump

 

[Kakistan]

The first link is dead, the second works though

Fixed the link, it can be opened now.

 

[WindyAttack]

I agree with Aksh

 

[CatLover313]

Bump

 

[Mercury009]

I'll send the panels I found for Gongcheol & some inconsistencies, unfortunately I accidentally stalled. I have no pixel calcs of my own

Gonna take these one by one:

XXX's consistency in being hunched over & the inconsistency in heights

• The first two images (1 and 2) have both characters in different planes of depth. As such, using those shots to determine someone's measurements would simply be wrong.
• The last image (3), and the one used to determine Bujin height, I personally don't understand the comment here at all. "Random Korean NPCs significantly taller than Gongcheol & likely even Bujin" when did random NPC sizes ever degrade or invalidate the size of others? If anything, disproportionately huge sizes are fairly common in-verse, which makes the height calculated more accurate.

XXX & Gongcheol & Bujin's side and front

This one is more interesting. Yes, in the "cut" second shot we see that XXX is not that much shorter than Gong; however, the heights still don't match what they should technically be. Let's say, for the sake of argument, we calculate everyone's height using Gongcheol as the reference from the first picture you provided.

We immediately notice 2 problems.

1. XXX, even while hunched over, should have a fairly similar height to his Juvie photo, that being 180 cm. Following this article, we can tell that bad posture can reduce a couple of inches. In this case, there is a 22 cms differences (or 8,66142 inches).
2. In this very old pixel scaling picture (props to CatLover), we see that a Juvie Bujin is at least 244 cm. Once again, purely on past height values, we have an immense difference (over 30 cms).

This is not a one-case instance either. We can use the same image I've used for the feat and that you pointed out in the prior link to check for their size using Gong as a reference.

Now Bujin appears to have the same height as he did back in Juvie; meanwhile, XXX, with bad posture, only loses 17 cm instead of 22. That's progress, sure, but it's still abysmally wrong unless he actively shrank over the period of his incarceration.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Gonna take these one by one:

• The first two images (1 and 2) have both characters in different planes of depth. As such, using those shots to determine someone's measurements would simply be wrong.
• The last image (3), and the one used to determine Bujin height, I personally don't understand the comment here at all. "Random Korean NPCs significantly taller than Gongcheol & likely even Bujin" when did random NPC sizes ever degrade or invalidate the size of others? If anything, disproportionately huge sizes are fairly common in-verse, which makes the height calculated more accurate.

This one is more interesting. Yes, in the "cut" second shot we see that XXX is not that much shorter than Gong; however, the heights still don't match what they should technically be. Let's say, for the sake of argument, we calculate everyone's height using Gongcheol as the reference from the first picture you provided.

We immediately notice 2 problems.

1. XXX, even while hunched over, should have a fairly similar height to his Juvie photo, that being 180 cm. Following this article, we can tell that bad posture can reduce a couple of inches. In this case, there is a 22 cms differences (or 8,66142 inches).
2. In this very old pixel scaling picture (props to CatLover), we see that a Juvie Bujin is at least 244 cm. Once again, purely on past height values, we have an immense difference (over 30 cms).

This is not a one-case instance either. We can use the same image I've used for the feat and that you pointed out in the prior link to check for their size using Gong as a reference.

Now Bujin appears to have the same height as he did back in Juvie; meanwhile, XXX, with bad posture, only loses 17 cm instead of 22. That's progress, sure, but it's still abysmally wrong unless he actively shrank over the period of his incarceration.

Save some args for later because I'll remake ts thread.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Anyways I'm not gonna reply in this CGD anymore so feel free to remove all my arguements from here and for now assume that there's no disagreement...for now.

 

[CatLover313]

Just some minor details: 1. You should imo directly link the original calc for the barbell feat. 2. Bujin’s height was ~240cm in original, the 200cm was for his shoulder-height via the mugshot. 3. Please add that I believe Gongcheol (a character who consistently always stands straight) would be better for measuring Bujin as they also stand right next to each other.

I’ll provide my panels when I get to my computer later.

Do you still want to argue for the Bujin height?

 

[Kakistan]

Gonna take these one by one:

• The first two images (1 and 2) have both characters in different planes of depth. As such, using those shots to determine someone's measurements would simply be wrong.
• The last image (3), and the one used to determine Bujin height, I personally don't understand the comment here at all. "Random Korean NPCs significantly taller than Gongcheol & likely even Bujin" when did random NPC sizes ever degrade or invalidate the size of others? If anything, disproportionately huge sizes are fairly common in-verse, which makes the height calculated more accurate.

This one is more interesting. Yes, in the "cut" second shot we see that XXX is not that much shorter than Gong; however, the heights still don't match what they should technically be. Let's say, for the sake of argument, we calculate everyone's height using Gongcheol as the reference from the first picture you provided.

We immediately notice 2 problems.

1. XXX, even while hunched over, should have a fairly similar height to his Juvie photo, that being 180 cm. Following this article, we can tell that bad posture can reduce a couple of inches. In this case, there is a 22 cms differences (or 8,66142 inches).
2. In this very old pixel scaling picture (props to CatLover), we see that a Juvie Bujin is at least 244 cm. Once again, purely on past height values, we have an immense difference (over 30 cms).

I disagree with how you've done this.

In Juvie, Bujin's shoulder height is at 200cm, right? In this panel, we see that a Gongcheol who is in front of Bujin's shoulder is still somewhat shorter than said shoulder. Considering Gongcheol's height of ~191cm and the perspective, it is reasonable to say that Bujin's shoulder in this panel is still around that 200cm.

The total height does not matter, using the shoulder height that has a canonical measurement (200cm in the mugshot) is much more accurate than trying to scale Bujin's entire height.

Not to mention, you still shouldn't be measuring XXX's height like that! He's unquantifiably hunched over and has a neck injury, plus the bending of his knees. Sure, you can argue that hunching shouldn't take that much off, but we clearly see that XXX isn't so small from the side view where he's notably at Gongcheol's shoulder while hunched.



Anyways, here is probably EVERY SINGLE panel in Reality Quest where 2 or more Ex-Reps are in the same panel. If I'm missing one it'd have to be Post-Chapter 210.

Gongcheol is consistently right below or at Bujin's shoulder when they're in panels together. And in panels with XXX and Gongcheol, the former is not drastically shorter than the latter. The barbell feat happened long before Chapter 198, so panels from Chapter 125 up to Chapter 139 would be much more viable. Bujin being 300cm+ compared to Gongcheol and XXX is very inconsistent.

Given the fact that you calculated 244cm (the exact height estimated prior) by using 191cm Gongcheol in the Ch.198 panel proves we should be sticking with the heights we had in the past for the barbell feat. Ch.199 shows us a gargantuan inconsistency, hence furthering why using recent depictions for a very old feat (and arguing the person grew more than half a meter) is disingenuous.

Yes, if the barbell feat happened now and more recent panels of Bujin being massive were coming out, I'd be more convinced in using a bigger height. But it didn't, so theorising that Bujin grew in recent chapters but using that for an old feat, which he did during the time where he was depicted as far smaller than 3m+, is just not what we should be allowing.

• The first two images (1 and 2) have both characters in different planes of depth. As such, using those shots to determine someone's measurements would simply be wrong.

I don't see where you're looking at characters with different planes of depth.

Image 1 shows Gongcheol & Bujin at a very similar plane of depth, Bujin is behind Raphael while Gongcheol is behind Gyeol Myeongja.
Image 2 shows that XXX moved behind Gyeol Meongja after some time, putting him next to Gongcheol at also a very similar depth.
I am not comparing Image 1 XXX with Gong & Bujin, if that's what you mistook me for doing.

• The last image (3), and the one used to determine Bujin height, I personally don't understand the comment here at all. "Random Korean NPCs significantly taller than Gongcheol & likely even Bujin" when did random NPC sizes ever degrade or invalidate the size of others? If anything, disproportionately huge sizes are fairly common in-verse, which makes the height calculated more accurate.

Throughout the ENTIRETY of the manhwa we have never seen anyone close to Bujin's height, with the sole exception of the Blond Gnome from the new chapter. No named characters, no unnamed characters, no delinquents, no adults, nobody else in the Bully Council, etc. Random NPCs suddenly appearing at a public Funeral venue and being 3 meters tall is an obvious inconsistency. The heights in that panel should not be taken over the consistent and numerical heights in the rest of the series.

 

[CatLover313]

Seems like there's still going to be contention on the LS feat, specifically Bujin's height, so we can still continue this CGD just based off that.

 

[Mercury009]

I disagree with how you've done this.

In Juvie, Bujin's shoulder height is at 200cm, right? In this panel, we see that a Gongcheol who is in front of Bujin's shoulder is still somewhat shorter than said shoulder. Considering Gongcheol's height of ~191cm and the perspective, it is reasonable to say that Bujin's shoulder in this panel is still around that 200cm.

The total height does not matter, using the shoulder height that has a canonical measurement (200cm in the mugshot) is much more accurate than trying to scale Bujin's entire height.

The total height does matter for this entire feat to work and for future references. It's literally pixel scaling 101. Especially since said Juvie photos were taken in the past. Not the present. The entire premise of XXX being 180 cm is based off the fact he is at least 180 cm in his mugshot, however many years prior was taken.

I am not comparing Image 1 XXX with Gong & Bujin, if that's what you mistook me for doing.

My fault, thought you meant that. Will respond properly in a bit for this too*

Not to mention, you still shouldn't be measuring XXX's height like that! He's unquantifiably hunched over and has a neck injury, plus the bending of his knees. Sure, you can argue that hunching shouldn't take that much off, but we clearly see that XXX isn't so small from the side view where he's notably at Gongcheol's shoulder while hunched.

I linked you an article that hunching over has a quantifiable range effect. The bending over is also considered by bending the line. It's not straight like Gong or Bujin case. Please read the article I linked you in full

Anyways, here is probably EVERY SINGLE panel in Reality Quest where 2 or more Ex-Reps are in the same panel. If I'm missing one it'd have to be Post-Chapter 210.

Gonna tackle the main focus of your points in a bit, just need to pixel scale a few more images. I'm not ignoring your main points since you did do a lot of work gathering all these which I immensely appreciate

Throughout the ENTIRETY of the manhwa we have never seen anyone close to Bujin's height, with the sole exception of the Blond Gnome from the new chapter. No named characters, no unnamed characters, no delinquents, no adults, nobody else in the Bully Council, etc. Random NPCs suddenly appearing at a public Funeral venue and being 3 meters tall is an obvious inconsistency. The heights in that panel should not be taken over the consistent and numerical heights in the rest of the series.

Meet John Quest, unnamed fodder, chapter 5 (introduced in the previous one as a cliffhanger). Height, estimated: 244 cm

Dismissing one's height just because there aren't others like him or in the same ballpark is kinda biased. Plenty of other fictional stories have disproportionally huge characters being common among the cast/background. Just saying "well they dont count" feels iffy IMO

 

[Kakistan]

The total height does matter for this entire feat to work and for future references. It's literally pixel scaling 101. Especially since said Juvie photos were taken in the past. Not the present. The entire premise of XXX being 180 cm is based off the fact he is at least 180 cm in his mugshot, however many years prior was taken.

It was already accepted while using the shoulder height by a Staff member, tho. There's no necessity in overwriting it, even if we later get a canonical measurement for his total height. Using the shoulder height and total height would be bringing in the same result anyway if they're consistent, don't you think? It's interchangeable. And so if there's a canon height for his shoulder, but not his total (though CatLover did guesstimate it), then it should be fine.

But I'll continue on other points.

I linked you an article that hunching over has a quantifiable range effect. The bending over is also considered by bending the line. It's not straight like Gong or Bujin case. Please read the article I linked you in full

This article is about posture and the skeleton, XXX is not only bending his legs he's also leaning over.

We know that XXX can stand up straight, he does this a few times even iirc when fighting Dowan, but in many appearances (such as the one you used in the calc) he's leaning down like a zombie. His upper chest goes significantly deeper into the depth of the panel you used and thus there are multiple inches being cut off even if you bend the lines. You can look at the back view to see that he's hunching hard.

We see how tall he should be when he stands/sits up straighter, they're in 8 & 9 of the imgur. Hell, the first 3 images (among many others) show us that in the current time only days before Bujin did the feat, that XXX is close to Gongcheol in height when standing straighter.

Meet John Quest, unnamed fodder, chapter 5 (introduced in the previous one as a cliffhanger). Height, estimated: 244 cm

Dismissing one's height just because there aren't others like him or in the same ballpark is kinda biased. Plenty of other fictional stories have disproportionally huge characters being common among the cast/background. Just saying "well they dont count" feels iffy IMO

Mercury, be serious bro. You don't believe with your SOUL on the line that pre-Growth chapter FIVE Dowan is 5'10 when that estimation was only for Second Growth (https://reality-quest.fandom.com/wiki/Dowan_Ha#cite_note-3)



Pre-Growth Dowan is as tall as Jihan, 1st-Growth Dowan is much taller than Jihan, 2nd Growth Dowan is even taller than that and is the version that reaches 177cm. I'm a bit confused why you measured Dowan differently from John Quest, but that's a minor detail tbh.

I'll reiterate what I said "Random NPCs suddenly appearing at a public Funeral venue and being 3 meters tall is an obvious inconsistency."

Also, regardless, THAT SAME GUY (Yook Man-uk) is shown with incredibly inconsistent heights as well from his 10~ panels of appearances. I compiled some panels showing Dowan a lot higher up on Yook's body in this imgur, there's also one panel in Chapter 4 where it depicts Dowan being at the guy's waist.



The author is pretty consistent with the shorter characters but there are blatant inconsistencies with the tall ones.

Given this information, plus the fact that XXX is not standing straight, we should either use Gongcheol & Bujin (who both stand straight and have numerous panels being in the same shot with easy comparisons) or keep using the numerical Juvie mugshot value for Bujin's shoulder. As long as Gongcheol is near Bujin's shoulder, the panel should be usable for comparing those two.