[Re:Zero] Astrea Couple Revisions

[Zabazab]

An update to Theresia & Wilhelm's profiles based on some recent revisions and the like. I won't be adding new AP scaling based on arc 9 in this thread either.

Sandbox Page

Theresia's current page
Wilhelm's current page

That's pretty much it. Feel free to ask questions or suggest changes.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I dont see any issues for now

 

[Fezzih_007]

Should't Aura and Social Influence be group together, like "Aura and Social Influence" since they more or less do the same thing?

Otherwise, I not seeing any problems.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

It’s perfect

I only have one thing I’m very iffy about: putting some of Wilhelm’s feats from his fight against “Divine Dragon Aldebaran” in his “prime” key, as yes I do believe he was around that level when he fought and beat Yae, but I imagine that he must have grown immediately upon fighting “Divine Dragon Aldebaran”, because I simply find it extremely unlikely that the Wilhelm that fought “Divine Dragon Aldebaran” at the start of the fight and was holding his own is equal to his “prime” self that fought against and was losing to Valgren.

There’s just too much of a disparity in the portrayal of these different fights: “prime” Wilhelm was fighting somewhat evenly against Valgren but would have died if not for his friends’ help, while the current Wilhelm was fighting “Divine Dragon Aldebaran” and holding his own for quite a while before he went back to being close to his “awakened” levels of power.

I think that upon fighting “Divine Dragon Aldebaran”, Wilhelm was somewhere between his “prime” and “awakened” forms in terms of powers, so I’d honestly just put all of his feats from that fight in his “awakened power” key.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Count me in on the agree pile.

 

[Zabazab]

I simply find it extremely unlikely that the Wilhelm that fought “Divine Dragon Aldebaran” at the start of the fight and was holding his own is equal to his “prime” self that fought against and was losing to Valgren.

There’s just too much of a disparity in the portrayal of these different fights: “prime” Wilhelm was fighting somewhat evenly against Valgren but would have died if not for his friends’ help, while the current Wilhelm was fighting “Divine Dragon Aldebaran” and holding his own for quite a while before he went back to being close to his “awakened” levels of power.

I don't really think the difference is as great as you say. In the first place, Volcanica's dragonhusk was nerfed by Al while Valgren's dragonhusk was buffed by the Hubristic Ten Commandments. Wilhelm was also very clearly losing at the start against VolcanicAl: He couldn't even scratch the dragonhusk with his blades, and he was barely escaping death by a hair over and over. Compare that to Valgren, who Wilhelm was weaker than (clashing made it feel like his muscles were tearing), but he could cut into and even lopped a head off of Valgren.

I think that upon fighting “Divine Dragon Aldebaran”, Wilhelm was somewhere between his “prime” and “awakened” forms in terms of powers, so I’d honestly just put all of his feats from that fight in his “awakened power” key.

Looking at the way the fight is presented, Wilhelm decides he can't achieve the pinnacle of swordsmanship by just parrying attacks in the mansion, leading him to jump out and 1v1 the Dragon in the open. There's no indication of a significant change in Wilhelm in this moment (as he showed that he could parry the Dragon's attacks already), neither from him, the Dragon, or narration.

Spoiler: Arc 9, Chapter 28

Maintaining that girl to the rear, the Sword Demon positioned himself such that she would get caught up in the destruction wrought by the Divine Dragon.

By doing so, the Divine Dragon, fearing harm may befall the dame for whatever reason, was made unable to display its full strength, thus alleviating the footsteps of death’s dominion from encroaching upon the Sword Demon, to some extent.

Ergo――,

Sword Demon: [――――]

The Sword Demon abandoned his position of keeping the girl to his back, and personally closed his distance with death’s dominion.

To a rampaging tempest of destruction and annihilation he exposed his own self, nary a lifeline save the dual implements of steel seized in both his hands, and threw himself towards the precipice of doom, with even the slightest of missteps meaning his life would be forfeit.

By using the battleground to one’s favor, by taking advantage of the opponent’s emotions, it was indeed possible to edge towards victory.

But, that was inelegant. And beyond being inelegant, it was extremely impertinent, unbeneficial, and futile. ――A victory stolen through underhanded means, rather than skill, to make up for swordsmanship that was lacking, what value could such a thing possibly hold here and now?

――The Sword Demon was a man who had lived on the battlefield.

The existence of battles fought for the sake of survival, of history untold by any save the triumphant survivors, of defeats and deaths that could not be excused; of these he knew all, by virtue of the weight of his victims’ blood clinging onto his soul.

However, the current time was different. ――Nay, from this moment forward, in all the clashes the Sword Demon would grip his blades, doing battle against individuals through his steel, there would be no meaning in stolen victory.

Through his swordsmanship he would force the surrender of the one against whom he possessed the greatest need to emerge triumphant.

Along that journey, the Sword Demon had not the time to squander on detours. If he was going to forge this old, withering body into the steel it had once been, he could not squander his time on anything but steeping his soul in the most scorching of heats.

Sword Demon: [――――]

At the raging blow of a swordlike wind, the dragon’s claw, peeled and sliced off, danced through the air. Cramped. In order to swing his swords, in order for the Divine Dragon to wield its tail and fangs to the fullest, this battleground was far too cramped. The Sword Demon’s heels exploding, his shimmering swords flashed at a speed that consigned all notions of sound and wind to oblivion, piercing into the chest of the Divine Dragon, and causing the space around them to burst asunder.

(This fight continues without any break in the prose, including all the feats listed in the Prime key)

Based on this flow, I don't believe he instantly switched from his prime strength to nearer his awakened strength as soon as he was in the open, so I arbitrarily split his feats in that fight between the two keys, starting from this moment due to it being appropriately dramatic, the actual end of this section of the chapter, and it's after this that we get confirmation Wilhelm is approaching the level he reached when he defeated the Sword Saint.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Wilhelm was also very clearly losing at the start against VolcanicAl: He couldn't even scratch the dragonhusk with his blades, and he was barely escaping death by a hair over and over. Compare that to Valgren, who Wilhelm was weaker than (clashing made it feel like his muscles were tearing), but he could cut into and even lopped a head off of Valgren.

VolcanicAl is clearly much stronger than Valgren (even at the end of the fight where Wilhelm gets back to his “awakened” levels of power, the narration still mentions it is a stalemate due to Wilhelm being unable to harm VolcanicAl while the latter can’t deal a finishing blow), my point is that “prime” Wilhelm would have died to Valgren, but VolcanicAl couldn’t put down Wilhelm even during the first half of the fight, which in my opinion shows a difference in overall ability between these versions of Wilhelm

Looking at the way the fight is presented, Wilhelm decides he can't achieve the pinnacle of swordsmanship by just parrying attacks in the mansion, leading him to jump out and 1v1 the Dragon in the open. There's no indication of a significant change in Wilhelm in this moment (as he showed that he could parry the Dragon's attacks already), neither from him, the Dragon, or narration.

Wilhelm mentions at the end of 9/27 that he would lose his sword after 3 blows from VolcanicAl and mentions that he needs to either parry more effectively or dodge and as you say so yourself (he puts himself infront of Felt so VolcanicAl holds back), he decides to fight in the open so that he can grow stronger, which obviously did happen as he continuously managed to survive multiple blows from VolcanicAl and managed to get back to his “awakened” power.

Spoiler: 9/27

Stating thus, Wilhelm held his twin swords at the ready, squaring off against the Divine Dragon Volcanica.

The numbness that had arisen from repelling the first strike had faded from his hands. But, if that was an example of a volley, merely three more exchanges would suffice in wresting his sword away from him. Either evasion, or parrying to a much higher degree.

Spoiler: 9/28

Along that journey, the Sword Demon had not the time to squander on detours. If he was going to forge this old, withering body into the steel it had once been, he could not squander his time on anything but steeping his soul in the most scorching of heats.

Sword Demon: [――――]

At the raging blow of a swordlike wind, the dragon’s claw, peeled and sliced off, danced through the air. Cramped. In order to swing his swords, in order for the Divine Dragon to wield its tail and fangs to the fullest, this battleground was far too cramped. The Sword Demon’s heels exploding, his shimmering swords flashed at a speed that consigned all notions of sound and wind to oblivion, piercing into the chest of the Divine Dragon, and causing the space around them to burst asunder.

Based on this flow, I don't believe he instantly switched from his prime strength to nearer his awakened strength as soon as he was in the open, so I arbitrarily split his feats in that fight between the two keys, starting from this moment due to it being appropriately dramatic, the actual end of this section of the chapter, and it's after this that we get confirmation Wilhelm is approaching the level he reached when he defeated the Sword Saint.

I will say that I exaggerated the amount that Wilhelm grew, as he is indeed in his “prime” during the very start of the fight.

I think his strength gradually grew throughout the fight, but even then, should the “prime” key still scale to a Wilhelm that’s continuously getting stronger? Wilhelm was getting better and better with each moment, I just find it hard to believe his “prime” key would scale to almost everything that happened in that fight. I also think that Wilhelm’s exact growth during the fight is vague, but yes the statement above is where it’s confirmed he’s back to his “awakened” levels of power.

 

[Zabazab]

my point is that “prime” Wilhelm would have died to Valgren, but VolcanicAl couldn’t put down Wilhelm even during the first half of the fight, which in my opinion shows a difference in overall ability between these versions of Wilhelm

There was only one point where Wilhelm would have die while fighting Valgren and that's after he took out all 3 heads causing an explosion, and fell down needing Bordeaux to catch him (both Wilhelm and Valgren survived their clash, Wilhelm hust got off with less injuries). I wouldn't consider Wilhelm's inability to fly to be a sign that his abilities are weaker than when he fought VolcanicAl, especially when the same thing happens in his fight with VolcanicAl, only instead of an ally catching him he happens to land on falling debris in midair.

Wilhelm mentions at the end of 9/27 that he would lose his sword after 3 blows from VolcanicAl and mentions that he needs to either parry more effectively or dodge and as you say so yourself (he puts himself infront of Felt so VolcanicAl holds back), he decides to fight in the open so that he can grow stronger, which obviously did happen as he continuously managed to survive multiple blows from VolcanicAl and managed to get back to his “awakened” power.

VolcanicAl also held back with the first attack that Wilhelm parried, since VolcanicAl was trying to save Felt there too. The difference in the effectiveness of his parries is more likely to be because he's prepared now instead of having to deal with a surprise attack from behind a wall. He has his opponent in full view now which naturally makes it easier to parry attacks.

The difference between Wilhelm (prime) and Wilhelm (awakened) has always been made clear in narration or by the characters. It's also not a gradual change, but a sudden "burst" of swordsmanship that is temporary in nature. It's why I believe the section's final line about Wilhelm's aura overflowing rather than reaching its limit, clashing with VolcanicAl's, to be the moment he awakened— alongside the next section stating his swordsmanship now is approaching his apex, i.e he wasn't approaching his apex prior.

Wilhelm was getting better and better with each moment, I just find it hard to believe his “prime” key would scale to almost everything that happened in that fight.

I think I've set a good cutoff point given the nature of Wilhelm's awakened power, you may just be in disbelief of Wilhelm was capable of in his prime, but you need to remember that the Wilhelm who fought VolcanicAl even has experience against Dragons, which is exceptionally useful in his ability to respond in battle (as seen with how he wiped the floor with Yae, a stronger shinobi than the Twin Shura).

And even if he is growing each moment he fights VolcanicAl, that's not really a sign that anything he does then doesn't scale to hid prime self— it's just his prime getting better/him getting closer to the peak of his prime (that isn't awakened), if we both agree that he wasn't aeakened, then he was in his prime. Getting better with every moment is also already a thing he could do in his prime.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Snip

I think I see your point though I’m still a bit conflicted, if everyone else is fine with it than yeah sure I guess I’ll just accept it.

 

[Trxyway]

Lurks good

 

[Zabazab]

Should't Aura and Social Influence be group together, like "Aura and Social Influence" since they more or less do the same thing?

Grouped now.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This is good.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Loos good

 

[Zabazab]

Bump

 

[Zabazab]

Bump

 

[Zabazab]

Bump

 

[Zabazab]

Bump

 

[KingTempest]

This is fine

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Looks alright.

 

[Zabazab]

Changes applied, thank you.