Possibly 4B rating for Darth Vader ?

[LordWhis]

I know this is a thread that pops up every 2 years but according to Sidious, Dark Empire Luke was still weaker than Vader thus, he should possibly scale to him.

I'm proposing At least 5B, possibly 4B (noted to be holding back against Luke, According to Sidious, superior to Dark Empire Luke Skywalker)

 

[JohnCenaNation]

I believe in this wiki, 4-B Darth Vader is rejected because he was at a mercy to another 4-B character a.k.a. Darth Sidious.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Alright, that's it. I'm going to out this to bed once and for all. Vader, in no way, shape, or from, scales to Sidious.

1. The Galen Marek argument. Vader fought Galen who then fought Sidious. This doesn't mean anything. In the xbox version, Galen outright says Sidious was holding back in their fight. In the novel, Galen chucks a box at him and Palps acts all defeated. In the wii version, the only version that depicts Sidious as even remotely trying in their fight, Sidious emerges victorious without a scratch on him after all is said and done, while Vader is left limping. Years later, Galen would electrocute the hell out of Vader while bloodlusted and only incapacitate him. Palp zaps him for five seconds and he dies.

2. The Luke Skywalker argument. The novelization explicitly states that both Vader abd Luke were going all out. Immediately afterward, Palp leaves Luke writhing in agony on the floor and Vader dies whilst saving him. The force lightning wasn't even directed at him for crying out loud.

3. Statements. "Vader is 80% of Sidious, Dark Empire Luke is weaker than Vader, etc." One, these statements are inconsistent. Not only is Vader depicted as fodder nrxt to his master, people who beat Vader are depicted as fodder in comparison. See the above points. Not to mention, Palpatine is an overconfident bastard who loves to belittle people, so his statement to Luke can easily be taken as that. This statement would also create circular scaling, as Dark Empire Luke is comparable to Dark Empire Palpatine who is stronger than ROTJ Palpatine who killed Vader, despite Dark Empire Luke being weaker than Vader. See the problem?

Vader is staying where he is.

 

[LordWhis]

Vader vs Sidious was a draw since they both died, actually Sidious died first so it's arguably a win.

DE Luke was quite a bit weaker than Sidious, it is definitely possible for this to be the case-

DE Sidious > ROTJ Sidious > Vader > DE Luke > Baseline 4B.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

No

 

[ByAsura]

Dark Empire Sidious wasn't a lot more powerful than Luke. He was overpowered and cut off from the force by both Luke and Leia, and that was while he had been amped by a massive amount, although he was focusing his hatred on the Force storm outside the Eclipse at that time. They are confirmed to be equal or more powerful than the Emperor later.

Also Palpatine does not say Luke is weaker than Vader, just that he's not far stronger. He wasn't actually referring to power either, just his mastery over the Dark Side and status in the galaxy.

I'm honestly neutral on 4-B Vader, but I completely disagree with these justifications.

 

[LordWhis]

Luke and Leia were amped at the time with baby anakin and other things.

We saw a 1v1 between Luke and Palpatine earlier on in DE and it wasn't pretty.

Again Vader killed Sidious 1v1 without any amps while injured, even if he died in the process. Much more impressive feat.

Palms said Luke could become as strong as his father- no fat stronger. Implying he wasn't equal yet.

Even using your logic of him not being far stronger they should still scale.

Mastery of the dark side = power

 

[ByAsura]

Luke and Leia were still more powerful than Sidious, they say so themselves, it was just easier with a 3rd force sentitive.

We see another 1v1 in the first part of the Dark Empire Saga and it was even on both sides.

Vader killed Sidious by picking him up and throwing him down the Death Star reactor. Sidious killed Vader by glancing him with force lightning for a few seconds after he was caught completely off guard.

Palpatine says "You can be far stronger than he was!"

Yes, and Luke didn't have any mastery over the Dark Side.

 

[LordWhis]

If Luke wasn't far stronger than Vader that is enough for Vader to be 4B

4B IS far stronger than 5B. The fact that Sidious said that suggests they were relatively comparable.

Even then it took a 2v1 to beat Palps indicating he was still above them individually. I also think you're underestimating the amount of help they had.

Also a kill is a kill. Besides would a 5b character even be able to pick up a 4B ? Also all 4B characters involved are well above baseline so even somewhat scaling to them puts one at 4B.

The difference between 4B and 5b is just too big for any of Vader's feats to make sense.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Yes, a 5-B would be able to lift a 4-B, as that feat is lifting strength based, not tier based. Palpatine weighs as much as a frail old man and Vader's lifting strength allows him to lift people up with one hand woth ease. Nothing contradictory here.

Vader's feats are to consistently 5-B for his 4-B statements to make sense. The only thing Vader has that suggests 4-B is statements and those are repeatedly contradicted by his actual feats. He's been beaten by people Sidious no diffs (Galen Marek and ROTJ Luke) and was killed by an accidentally grazing from his lightning. We've seen Vader eat lightning from people comparable to him for a full minute before. If Vader was in any way 4-B, his death in Return of the Jedi wouldn't have happened.

 

[ByAsura]

@Lord Whis

Again, that refers to mastery over the Dark Side, not the Light Side of the Force. This is the proceeding panel, by the way. Throughtout the whole comic, Luke is still learning about the Dark Side.

I'm not saying Sidious (who was massively amped) isn't above them, just he isn't as far above them as you're implying. I'm not underestimating anything, Leia specifically says their combined powers are greater. Also, this was a literal baby who wouldn't be born until Empire's End, and Leia had very little training at this point.

"kill is a kill". No, there's force amped physicals and then there's just regular durability. Also, Dark Empire implies that Palpatine's death wouldn't actually been a bad thing for him. That last part is true, I suppose.

I kind of agree here, but it's not enough for evidence, especially since the wiki uses energy and not purely powerscaling.

 

[GyroNutz]

I thought Vader's life support short circuits from force lightning, which could be why he died to an indirect force lightning hit.

 

[ByAsura]

I thought that was the canon explaination.

Edit: In the Legends Novelization, they imply it's both.

• The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart. Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.
• The wind whipped at Lord Vader's cape, as he staggered and collapsed toward the hole, trying to follow his master to the end. Luke crawled to his father's side, though, and pulled the Dark Lord away from the edge of the chasm, to safety. Both of them lay on the floor, entwined in each other, too weak to move, too moved to speak.
• Vader motioned Luke closer to him. "Luke, help me take this mask off." Luke shook his head. "You'll die." The Dark Lord's voice was weary. "Nothing can stop that now. Just once let me face you without it. Let me look on you with my own eyes."

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I thought Vader's life support short circuits from force lightning, which could be why he died to an indirect force lightning hit.

Vader eats Galen's force lightning for a solid minute. While Galen was bloodlusted no less. It's pretty clear that lightning alone wasn't what did it.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

IVader can support himself with the Dark Side even if his life support fails, but in ROTJ, he let go of all of his hate, so that wasn't possible.

Doesn't change anything though, a 4-B rating is nonsense.

 

[LordWhis]

Wasn't Vader still not used to his suit during the first Galen fight ? The second was a pretty solid win for him.

I still think there were too many factors involved in the ROTJ Luke fight to use that for powerscaling.

Also, Luke cut vader's hand off because lightsabers ignore durability.

Also wouldn't Palps be pushing down with his own 4B strength ?

Vader's inconsistencies seems like the kind of inconsistencies and jobbing you'd expect from a main villain character over decades of film and printed media.

If Vader was only 5B even a grazing hit from a 4B attack would have vaporised him as we actually saw in clear fashion in Revan vs Darth Nyriss.

 

[LordWhis]

And the thing is I'm only asking for a Possibly 4B

 

[The_Wright_Way]

What? No, Galen won the second time too.

Again, the Novelization flat out says that Vader wasn't holding back.

No, he'd be pyshing down with his LIFTING strength, not his AP. There is a difference.

Fiction really doesn't care about stuff like logic. Notably, Palpatine was using his lightning to torture ROTJ Luke rather than just vaporize him.

Vader is still to consistently 5-B for that to ever happen.

 

[ByAsura]

They do explicitly mention that Palpatine dialed up the power of his Force Lightning, implying he was holding back at some point. This was also a few seconds before Dark Vader decided to betray the Emperor.

• "Young fool!" Palpatine rasped at Luke. "Only now at the end, do you understand. Your puerile skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid a price for your lack of vision. Now, young Skywalker, you will pay the price in full. You will die!"
• He laughed maniacally; and although it would not have seemed possible to Luke, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increased in intensity. The sound screamed through the room, the murderous brightness of the flashes was overwhelming.

 

[LordWhis]

Fiction really doesn't care about stuff like logic.

Then there is no point to this wiki in particular and vs debating in general.

Vader won the second fight.

No Star Wars character is consistently 4B or 5B, they regularly get injured and killed by much less than that and fail to show AP anywhere near that.

 

[LordWhis]

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