Pokemon rematch revisions

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I suppose technically this would actually be something we add later actually based on how the profiles currently look but we already have all of rainbow rocket sharing profiles with other versions of the game character so there is a precedent for this type of thing.

So replacing the "Gen" terminology is what you're against?

 

[Lou_change]

No profiles should refer to the game instead of the gen

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump... again.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Please someone agree with this

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

 

[FinePoint]

The use of "Gens" in our profiles​

A lot of our profiles for early Gym Leaders have Keys that go "Gen 1 | Gen 2 | Gen 5".

I agree, using the actual game name abbreviations would probably be clearer and more professional.

FRLG changes​

The reason why this matters is a little thing called "postgame fights". Gym Leaders in FRLG do not have postgame fights, but Elite Four members and Blue do, which makes them stronger than Blue was when he became League Champion. Hence, they should all get a 6-C Key for their Rematch, Blue himself an At least 6-C. (While levels are not a perfect means of scaling from Pokemon to Pokemon, this is already how we judge the physicals of virtually every Rival character, much less Gym Leader, in the verse, outside of "The player character must've required significant effort since I did in my playthrough".)

How exactly do we know the Elite Four rematches scale to Blue as League Champion other than game mechanics?

HGSS changes​

HGSS has postgame fights for everyone, however. Johto Gym Leaders in their refight are about as strong as League Champion Lance was (6-B) while rematch Kanto Gym Leaders are even stronger. Supporting this is the statement that Kanto Gym Leaders are as strong as any in Johto ("Hmm? You're not collecting Kanto Gym Badges? The Gym Leaders in Kanto are as tough as any you battled in Johto. I recommend that you challenge them."). Refought Elite Four members are close to how strong Mewtwo and even Rayquaza are in the game (5-B), and Lance's Dragonite is straight up stronger than them (At least 5-B).

See above.

Sinnoh changes​

Literally only Candice's page does this, but whoever made it forgot about the Battleground in Pokemon Platinum, in which Gym Leaders can appear, and she is portrayed stronger than members of the Sinnoh Elite Four, giving her a 2-B, possibly 2-A Key.
Cynthia should also get Keys for her post-Stark Mountain rematch, her appearance in Black and White, her other appearance in B2W2, and obviously her portrayal in USUM in which she battles Elio and also reveals she has Mega Evolution, though all of these would just be higher degrees of 2-B, possibly 2-A.

Sure.

The Hell that is quantifying the Kalos refights​

Gym Leaders​

The Kalos Gym Leaders, Elite Four, and Champion don't technically have formal "refights", instead they show up again in the Battle Chateau, and in there they also have a rematch. In the Battle Chateau, all Gym Leaders are put at level 40, regardless of where they were at before. ...Don't ask me why they made it like this. In any case, this makes everybody about as strong as Valerie's Gym Team (High 7-A)... except for the fact that Writs exist. In X and Y, Black Writs tell incoming Trainers that you want to fight them so seriously that they're practically bloodlusted. Under such a Writ, instead of Level 40, everyone is rendered stronger than Wulfric's Gym Team, rendering serious Gym Leaders At least High 7-A. The rematches in the Battle Chateau render the Gym Leaders just weaker than Wulfric, but their rematch versions can be summoned by the Black Writ too. While rematching under the Black Writ, they are stronger than Diantha's base Champion team (At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A).

The fact that their levels are fluid in different contexts sort of gives credence to my previous concern of this just being game mechanics.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

A person!

How exactly do we know the Elite Four rematches scale to Blue as League Champion other than game mechanics?

I mention that in the post. Levels aren't a flawless means of scaling from Trainer to Trainer, but it's the best one we have outside of "This guy was really hard in my playthrough". The site uses this already for most Rival fights. If you need a more solid reason for them to scale, a Red who has already soloed the Elite Four and defeated Blue would have a lot of difficulty defeating their rematch versions.

See above.

You can face a lot of the toughest HGSS opponents at around the same time. The same Ethan that can beat Mewtwo or Rayquaza with considerable effort can also fight the Rematch Elite Four and Lance without it being near a stomp.

The fact that their levels are fluid in different contexts sort of gives credence to my previous concern of this just being game mechanics.

Well, that context is how hard they want to fight. Normally they come and battle for fun, but with a Writ of Challenge, you're actually sending a challenge to those Trainers (hence (Writ of Challenge); the higher the challenge, the harder they fight, with the Black Write being their fullest potential. Even if the changing of levels was an issue, all we need to know is their maximum output.

 

[FinePoint]

I can see the logic in your argument, but fundamentally I feel like it requires too much of an assumption for me to be comfortable with, my apologies.

Especially since Pokemon as a verse suffers from game mechanics a lot more than most.

 

[Imaginym]

Do they not have dialogue to defer to for these rematches?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Do they not have dialogue to defer to for these rematches?

They do, but it's not like Lance is like, "I'm as strong as Mewtwo now!".

Clair, before she gets stronger, DOES have a statement that she's on par with an Elite Four member, thus making all the Kanto Gym Leaders at least Elite Four tier, but that's not much help. Her stronger self does team up with Rematch Lance in that postgame fight, though.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Oh, alright.

I'm willing to swallow my pride on this one and let the whole Gens thing go. What are peoples' current stances on this CRT?

 

[Imaginym]

They do, but it's not like Lance is like, "I'm as strong as Mewtwo now!".

Clair, before she gets stronger, DOES have a statement that she's on par with an Elite Four member, thus making all the Kanto Gym Leaders at least Elite Four tier, but that's not much help. Her stronger self does team up with Rematch Lance in that postgame fight, though.

Which characters' statements in particular would be particularly relevant here?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Great Gandhi, I forgot this thread existed.

Which characters' statements in particular would be particularly relevant here?

A lot of them are actually shown, like characters visibly being much higher level than their first fight, fighting the MC much later in the game, or sometimes we get stuff like Clair directly fighting alongside Lance, who would have swept her team if she was her Gym Challenge self.

Professor Oak, if you get to his lab without collecting any Badges, says, "Hmm? You're not collecting Kanto Gym Badges? The Gym Leaders in Kanto are as tough as any you battled in Johto. I recommend that you challenge them." The 8th Kanto Gym Leader is, yknow, Blue, meanwhile only after fighting him you unlock rematches and can fight post-training Johto Gym Leaders who can challenge the Ethan that can beat Blue.


For reference on why this is needed, Cynthia has everything on one single Key right now, while she should have:

Champion battle | Rematch | Post-Stark Mountain | PWT | Gen 7 | Masters | Arc Suit

 

[Ghengiroo115]

The use of "Gens" in our profiles​

A lot of our profiles for early Gym Leaders have Keys that go "Gen 1 | Gen 2 | Gen 5".

The thing is, those aren't the actual gens we're dealing with. FireRed and LeafGreen has completely replaced Red and Blue in the canon of the games, and HGSS has done the same to Gold and Silver. This was before any of the multiverse stuff happened in Pokemon, and in fact doesn't even have any very vague statements about Mega Evolution not existing, so these games can't be argued to just be "different timelines in the multiverse".
Secondly, "Gen" is an extremely unprofessional term, given it's a fan term only and many of them have more than one fight in a "Gen" and automatically dismisses side games which fit under the blanket of the term "Gens". We should be abbreviating the games that they're from, like FRLG or HGSS (as some people might not even know what games the "Gen" entails).

Idk why this was crossed out, I agree with this.

FRLG changes​

The reason why this matters is a little thing called "postgame fights". Gym Leaders in FRLG do not have postgame fights, but Elite Four members and Blue do, which makes them stronger than Blue was when he became League Champion. Hence, they should all get a 6-C Key for their Rematch, Blue himself an At least 6-C. (While levels are not a perfect means of scaling from Pokemon to Pokemon, this is already how we judge the physicals of virtually every Rival character, much less Gym Leader, in the verse, outside of "The player character must've required significant effort since I did in my playthrough".)

Wouldn’t they technically already be 6-C? Most profiles aren’t updated accordingly, but I was under the impression that fully-evolved Pokémon are now scaling to 6-C via Abomasnow (other recently updated profiles like Lucario, Ralts and Pikachu use this same scaling).

I’m 50/50 on whether the E4 should upscale from main game Blue based on in-game levels, but their level of strength doesn’t really change much either way so sure.

I’m gonna talk about the rest in a different post because the site keeps reloading and deleting what I write

 

[Ghengiroo115]

HGSS changes​

HGSS has postgame fights for everyone, however. Johto Gym Leaders in their refight are about as strong as League Champion Lance was (6-B) while rematch Kanto Gym Leaders are even stronger. Supporting this is the statement that Kanto Gym Leaders are as strong as any in Johto ("Hmm? You're not collecting Kanto Gym Badges? The Gym Leaders in Kanto are as tough as any you battled in Johto. I recommend that you challenge them."). Refought Elite Four members are close to how strong Mewtwo and even Rayquaza are in the game (5-B), and Lance's Dragonite is straight up stronger than them (At least 5-B).

First thing I want to say is that Elite 4s should usually downscale from their Champions, as it narratively doesn’t make sense for there to be a one-shot gap between them or anything like that. That would mean Clair already downscales from High 6-A (formerly 6-B), which would then apply to all Kanto gym leaders and Gym leader rematches. While I’m iffy on relying on levels especially for post-game rematches, they have other methods of scaling so it’s again not much difference. I think Clair and Lance’s double battle with Ethan/Lyra and Silver was also mentioned, which would make all gym rematches downscale from post-game Lance (also supporting the Elite 4 generally downscaling).

I’m iffy on upscaling Lance over Mewtwo and Ray based purely on levels, although if we did do that then wouldn’t FRLG rematch Blue already scale to the same thing? (iirc you unlock Cerulean Cave in that game the same time as the other Sevii Islands, which is earlier than the Indigo League rematches).


I was gonna elaborate on the Sinnoh and Kalos stuff but I just had a really filling meal thats made me exhausted, so neutral on Sinnoh and leaning agree to Kalos.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Idk why this was crossed out, I agree with this.

Apparently, people just love saying “Gens” too much.

Wouldn’t they technically already be 6-C? Most profiles aren’t updated accordingly, but I was under the impression that fully-evolved Pokémon are now scaling to 6-C via Abomasnow (other recently updated profiles like Lucario, Ralts and Pikachu use this same scaling).

I’m 50/50 on whether the E4 should upscale from main game Blue based on in-game levels, but their level of strength doesn’t really change much either way so sure.

They would, but people are stupid and most of the verse is outdated.

We aren't huge fans of scaling to Legendaries in FRLG, as some of them wouldn't make sense given it would require certain Trainers getting weaker in the 3 years between FRLG and HGSS despite constantly battling.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

First thing I want to say is that Elite 4s should usually downscale from their Champions, as it narratively doesn’t make sense for there to be a one-shot gap between them or anything like that. That would mean Clair already downscales from High 6-A (formerly 6-B), which would then apply to all Kanto gym leaders and Gym leader rematches. While I’m iffy on relying on levels especially for post-game rematches, they have other methods of scaling so it’s again not much difference. I think Clair and Lance’s double battle with Ethan/Lyra and Silver was also mentioned, which would make all gym rematches downscale from post-game Lance (also supporting the Elite 4 generally downscaling).

I’m iffy on upscaling Lance over Mewtwo and Ray based purely on levels, although if we did do that then wouldn’t FRLG rematch Blue already scale to the same thing? (iirc you unlock Cerulean Cave in that game the same time as the other Sevii Islands, which is earlier than the Indigo League rematches).

It sorta does, since Silver easily got through the Elite Four but got stomped by Silver. Cynthia was also stated to be way beyond her Elite Four. They would downscale, but I don't think it'd be to the degree that they're all 5-B.

You unlock Cerulean Cave after coming the Champion.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.