Marle, Crono, and Lucca

[The_real_cal_howard]

Back when Lavos was first getting upgraded and got the Dream Devourer form, the main cast was scaled to it. But they were removed from that because it was an outlier, because they got no powerup before that or anything of the like. However, now that I'm remembering, While that is true for Ayla, Robo, Frog, and (debatably) Magus, these three explicitly do get a powerup that's required to unlock the Dream Devourer fight. I propose we do scale them to the Dream Devourer, and name the keys for it "Pre Vortex | Post Vortex", as the powerup involves Dimensional Vortexes. Also scales to Serge. He scales to a guy who killed Lucca (spoilers)

 

[The_Everlasting]

>Wikipedia

Autocorrect can be a wonderful thing.

But I'm pretty sure "outlier" wasn't the argument, it was that they canonically lose really, really hard and don't really inflict much damage.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Actually, CT makes a BIG difference between the two. Ocean Palace!Lavos was "lose really really hard". Dream Devourer was more akin to WarGreymon X inflicting minor damage to Alphamon or 7!Lucario defeating Darkrai with every advantage possible.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why on earth did it autocorrect While to Wikipedia?!?!?!

 

[Js250476]

Because autocorrect is secretly a ***** who likes to ruin your posts ovo.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's also important to note that Crono's final weapon is heavily implied to be a part of the Dream Devourer.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Protodude said he disagreed with the protagonists scaling to Lavos because Schala was effectively trying to hold Dream Devourer back through out the entire fight. Plus, Magus is still canonically the strongest of the 7 protagonists so he should theoretically be the first character to scale if anyone does.

Also, one of the NCP's quoted Melchior saying that Janus/Magus is even more powerful than Schala, but never uses his full power. So if Schala is comparable to Dream Devourer, then Magus might scale as well. Anyway, I hope this doesn't end up like the various Zelda and Kirby upgrade threads.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

While that is true, she was attempting to hold it back, she was failing pretty badly, and she couldn't hold it back enough where it doesn't attack with Low 2-C force, as its presence alone is Low 2-C, let alone holding it back two degrees of infinity.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fair enough, I should also mention in the same discussion Proto mentioning Magus does have a 4-B feat in Radical Dreamers, and the three generals have a 3-B feat in Chrono Cross, but he felt uncertain about those feats. He seems like a pretty firm believer that 5-A and Relativistic speed are the best ratings for the Chrono Trigger Cast. Although, the Relativistic speed feat happened while Frog/The Masamune performed a feat that was only Town level. And DarkAnine did do a Massively FTL+ calc that was legit. It was almost a year ago when I had that conversation, so his opinions may or may not have changed.

Anyway, I'm alright with those characters having a seperate Low 2-C key, but only as long as Magus has one too for the reasons I mentioned.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I respect the heck out of Proto, so while I do plan to put the ratings in (with more input), if he says something about it, then I'll make another thread for a downgrade.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Now that I think about it, somewhat related to the topic at hand, being able to move around in the Darkness Beyond Time is grounds for immeasurable rather than infinite, right?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Darkness beyond time? That sounds more like moving in a timeless void; which is generally considered infinite speed. Though, being semi-omnipresent beyond Past, Present, and Future easily qualifies as Immeasurable speed.

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, if anything, that'd be Infinite.

I guess this looks fine to me, if they got a powerup.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Aight then. Speed won't change. And thanks for responding, Prom!

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Still really not sure about scaling the protagonists to DD. The Devourer was being held back the whole time, and they definitely do nithing but lose really hard while causing the DD no ill effects.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They do "beat" ol' DD (emphasis on the quotes) though, and it's nowhere near as big of a stomp as the Ocean Palace incident. Like, Schala doesn't have that big of an influence to hold it back, by too much.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And Magus and Crono both wield parts of the Dream Devourer as their final weapons, with Marle's and Lucca's vortex weapons likely being comparable.

 

[Kaltias]

Looks fine I guess

 

[Reppuzan]

I don't know enough about Chrono Trigger to properly comment. So, my question is whether or not there is a canonical explanation as to how the heroes fought Lavos and if they won or lost before I make a vote.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think there are any quotes saying they Defeated Dream Devourer. Once their 30,000 HP drops to zero, a scene of DD knocking the party out with one blast is shown. So while the player does indeed defeat the boss, the party does not defeat Dream Devourer. Anyway, I'm alright with the party having a seperate key scaling to the low end; and perhaps that key could say likely Low 2-C but it should be noted that none of them are actually capable of defeating DD.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. I agree that they'd be Low 2-C, rather than potentially scaling to DD completely (Low 2-C, possibly 2-A)

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cal

I mean, if DD wiped the party badly, I'm not sure if they should scale.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Magus does take quite a few hits from DD and keeps on getting up, and we don't really know if DD wasn't taking damage, as the monster never shows a concept of pain. We just know that after having enough, it blasts the party unconscious, and even that in itself is impressive, as the last time someone took a mouth blast from Lavos...it wasn't pretty...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, though the issue is that it one-shot the party while still growing, being actively restricted, and taking no visible damage.

That's what makes scaling them to it so uncertain.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Still really not sure about scaling the protagonists to DD. The Devourer was being held back the whole time, and they definitely do nithing but lose really hard while causing the DD no ill effects.

Same. I feel it is wanking to a certain level. I don't think any Chrono Trigger character safe DD should be above 5-A.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Azzy

Still growing DD is lit just DD though. TD is the fully incubated version, and the growing version still provides an absurdly casual Low 2-C feat. If DD was supposed to stomp them (keep in mind, the ohko attack was point blank), they'd make it a repeat of the Ocean Palace. And I did rewatch the cutscene. Schala didn't hold back the DD until after the fight and DD knocked them out. She was completely helpless prior and is a nihilist, wishing for the end of all existence. And Crono and Magus do wield parts of the Dream Devourer as final weapons post-vortex (Dreamseeker and Dreamreaper), the former being acquired after beating DD. If the Frozen Flame is anything to go by, it'd quite easily be a tier 2 item.

Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying any of them are threats to DD. In fact, they're little more than nuisances. It's just that DD is a high enough level of Low 2-C to have them there instead of High 3-A.

@Matt. I mean, keep in mind that last year, Lavos was a haxless 5-A, without a single Devourer form. It's not too hard to believe that no one really brought it up before, especially considering this is the last 20 minutes exclusive to the remake.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nobody scales, still.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Admittedly, I'm surprised no one responded to the quote about an Earthbound one NPC mentioning Janus possessing magic stronger than Schala's, but I agree with Matthew. While I'm curious about Protodude mentioning the 4-B to 3-B feats, I think it's best to just have the main cast be 5-A until further notice.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump. Normally I'd leave this be, as I trust Matt and Azzy a heck of a lot, but we still need to address the fact that both, Crono and Magus post-vortex wield weapons that are implied to be parts of the Dream Devourer.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

FateAlbane sent me a PM on Fanfiction.net about this (He's still alive!)

Oi Matt. Surgimento repentino esse meu, mas como deve ter percebido, eu meio que fui *Puff* na VSB (e a bem da verdade, de VS Debating em geral). Mesmo assim, n├úo fa├ºo idéia de como, me contataram falando de um negócio de upgrade do cast de Chrono pra Low 2-C por causa da "luta" deles contra o DD e pediram opini├úo minha no assunto. Exceto que n├úo foi luta, foi um fail coletivo ou massacre unilateral. Se esse upgrade fosse leg├¡timo, eu j├í teria feito h├í tempo de sobra. ...N├úo vou logar de volta só pra debunkar mais um thread de upgrade de CT (ali├ís, CT é a ├║ltima coisa que eu volto a discutir na minha vida, voc├¬ sabe melhor do que ninguém o quanto o verso passou a me cansar com tudo dito e feito). Mas só te dizendo j├í que chequei o thread por cima, isso faz 0 sentido no meu livro. O cast tomou um stomp horrendo do DD, até onde o plot se importa foi um hit pra varrer o ch├úo com a cara de todos, e eles nem arranharam o DD. Isso sem falar que tava sendo restrito pela Schala é a ├║nica explica├º├úo plaus├¡vel pra n├úo terem todos virado pó no primeiro hit. E dizer que ela estava falhando "totalmente" nessa restri├º├úo também n├úo pega, j├í que Chrono Cross faz quest├úo de apontar que o negócio da Schala era a principal raz├úo do bicho n├úo ter varrido toda a exist├¬ncia do mapa ainda. O bicho praticamente levou golpes pouco se lixando até onde a história se importa. Isso sem contar que o verso faz um esfor├ºo através da história inteira pra sempre ressaltar que o Lavos é o ser mais apelativo do enredo, e a menos que tu use o Chrono Cross e o poder dele mesmo com o Frozen Flame, ninguém tem uma chance real. Na minha cabe├ºa é no m├íximo um PIS ou Outlier bugado o Magus ter aguentado suficiente pra falar um a ou dois com a Schala. Porque até o Guru do Tempo fala pro grupo que n├úo recomenda lutar com o bicho mesmo depois dos vortex dimensionais (sendo que contra o Lavos Base ele disse que estavam preparados), o Robo diz com todas as letras que "o poder dele é incalcul├ível", e a Schala diz que "nem com a for├ºa deles, ou talvez nem com nenHuman no mundo" eles poderiam deter o bicho. Isso sem contar que foi um laser casual pra dar onehit nos tr├¬s e o Magus nem arranhou. Só n├úo morreu feio porque a Schala deteve o Dream Devourer antes dele ser finalizado. N├úo faz sentido algum dar scale no grupo de CT para o DD, seria como dar Low 2-C pra todo mundo que n├úo morreu em um hit do Jiren.
	~ Fate Albane​

This is what he said, verbatum. Here's a translation:

Hi Matt. Sudden appearance of mine, but as you should have noticed, I sorta just went *Poof* from VBW (And well, to tell the truth, from Vs Debating in general). Even so, having no idea how, I was contacted about something about an upgrade of the Chrono cast to Low 2-C because of their "fight against DD and was asked my opinion about it. Except it wasn't a fight, it was a collective failure and unilateral massacre. If this upgrade was legitimate, I would already have done it long ago. ... I won't log on again now just to debunk yet another CT upgrade thread (In fact, CT is the last thing I want to discuss again in my life, you already know better than anyone how the verse started to tire and exhaust me with all said and one). But I'm just telling you that I checked the thread, and this makes 0 sense in my book. The cast suffered a horrendous stomp from DD, as much as the plot cares it took one hit to wipe the floor with everyone's faces, and they didn't even scratch him. And that's not mentioned that it was being restricted by Schala, and that's the only plausible explanation for them not turning to dust in the first hit. And to say that she was failing "totally" in this restriction also makes no sense, as Chrono Cross outright points that Schala's stuff was the primary reason that the creature hadn't yet wiped all existence of the map. The dude practically took all attacks without a care in the world until history matters. And that's not mentioning that the verse puts a lot of effort and emphasis along the story to reiterate that Lavos is the most overpowered being in the plot, and unless you use the Chrono Cross and his own power with the Frozen Flame, no one has any chance against him. In my mind it is at most a "glitched out" PIS or Outlier that Magus endured enough to have spoken A or B with Schala. More so because even the Guru of Time speaks to the group that he doesn't recommend fighting the creature even after the dimensional vortexes (While for Base Lavos he says that they are prepared), and Robo says with all letters that "his power is incalculable", and Schala says that "Not even with their strength, or perhaps not with any in the world" they could have defeated it. And that's without mentioning that a casual laser was enough to give a one-hit kill to all three party members and Magus never even scratched it. He only didn't die horribly because Schala stopped the Dream Devourer before he was finished. It makes no sense for anyone in the CT group to scale to DD, it would be like giving Low 2-C to everyone who didn't immediately died to a Jiren punch.
	~ Fate Albane​

... So yeah. Sorry Cal. No upgrade happening.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm just glad Fate's still around. Hope he doesn't hate me or anything for this kind of stuff...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I think Fate makes sense; that also sounds like the exact same thing Protodude would probably say.