Making uncle Tsukishima proud part 1: Bleach and Acausality type 1

[ItsMeat]

Before we begin, I kindly ask those who read this to also leave their opinion since literally only 5 people except me have commented here

So, this is Shūkurō Tsukishima with his famous ability, Book of The End. And no, it is not simple memory manipulation, it quite literally creates another past. As expected, this affects the present. However the different pasts don't also affect people. Memories of the new past are implanted but it's just this. Had people been physically affected by the change of the past, Tsukishima would have been extremely old, or already dead from teaching Byakuya all the techniques he now knows, he'd also be even stronger than Aizen and Ichigo wouldn't even have had to use Mugetsu, so he wouldn't have lost his powers, so he wouldn't have become a fullbringer, as Tsukishima made a past where he was the one who defeated Aizen. Even more, the only time someone was physically affected by the change of the past was when Tensa Zangetsu was restored. And even then, simply rewriting Ichigo's past wasn't enough, Orihime's causality manipulation powers were needed in order to make it work. Even more than this, the only affected memories are those of the people who have been cut by Book of The End, the others are 100% unaffected and unaware of the events in the new pasts.

Now, reaching to our goal, I believe this aligns with the definition of Acausality type 1.

Type 1: Time Paradox Immunity: Characters with this type of Acausality are rendered immune to changes in the past and standard temporal paradoxes, but remain just as vulnerable in the present and can be affected by normal Causality Manipulation and similar abilities.

Uncle Tsukishima's friends(agree): @MadeByZiggy

Uncle Tsukishima's random neighbours(neutral):

Uncle Tsukishima's haters(disagree):

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll check this out tomorrow.

 

[Muteki616]

Sounds good tbh.

 

[ItsMeat]

Sounds good tbh.

Got it, I'll count you among uncle's friends.

 

[ItsMeat]

I'll check this out tomorrow.

Well?

 

[Deceived3596]

I haven't forgotten about this thread, I've just been busy for most of the day. I promise I'll check this out here later today (my time)

 

[ItsMeat]

Sure, take your time

 

[ItsMeat]

Womp womp

 

[Deceived3596]

After careful consideration, I disagree with this. It's stated in Can't Fear Your Own World that Tsukishima isn't merely affecting the past of a single timeline, he is rather creating a separate timeline - either with an ability entailed by the Fullbringer or by consequence of the Bleach cosmology working similarly like that of a Many Worlds Interpretation. Regardless of what is assumed there, it's still the case that Tsukishima is manipulating a separate timeline, which is temporally distinct from the original timeline he was operating in.

Paradoxes like the Grandfather Paradox only appear when the timeline in question is the only timeline that exists, so when someone occurs differently in the past it'll directly affect the present and future of that timeline. Since Tsukishima is formulating a new timeline that has its past being congruent with its present and future initially, it isn't actually creating a Paradox by reconfiguration. It's a seamless forward progression.

However, I would like other knowledgeable members to comment on this. I've only done some research on the topic, and I believe I am correct on the Paradox argument. But it would be good to receive confirmation on if I was right in my assessment or incorrect, or if I improperly explained anything.

 

[ItsMeat]

After careful consideration, I disagree with this. It's stated in Can't Fear Your Own World that Tsukishima isn't merely affecting the past of a single timeline, he is rather creating a separate timeline - either with an ability entailed by the Fullbringer or by consequence of the Bleach cosmology working similarly like that of a Many Worlds Interpretation. Regardless of what is assumed there, it's still the case that Tsukishima is manipulating a separate timeline, which is temporally distinct from the original timeline he was operating in.

Paradoxes like the Grandfather Paradox only appear when the timeline in question is the only timeline that exists, so when someone occurs differently in the past it'll directly affect the present and future of that timeline. Since Tsukishima is formulating a new timeline that has its past being congruent with its present and future initially, it isn't actually creating a Paradox by reconfiguration. It's a seamless forward progression.

However, I would like other knowledgeable members to comment on this. I've only done some research on the topic, and I believe I am correct on the Paradox argument. But it would be good to receive confirmation on if I was right in my assessment or incorrect, or if I improperly explained anything.

Well, your link doesn't work for whatever reason, anyway, I assume you are talking about this scan. To make it simple to visualise, you know how a hypertimeline branches, right? Here it's the opposite. Basically tsukishima creates a past that is congruent with the original timeline, in the present. I guess, I could already call them time axes and this is one of the main args behind the "Making Uncle Tsukishima proud part 2 post: Bleach always had 2 temporal dimensions"(I still haven't decided the name).

However, this does not change the fact that people's pasts are actively changed and other objects are being directly affected in the present by the change of the past. Ig you could say it's smth like this:

"Hahahahaha, I have cut you, now I made so instead of past A, you followed continuity B, created by me, till the present."

 

[Deceived3596]

Well, your link doesn't work for whatever reason, anyway, I assume you are talking about this scan. To make it simple to visualise, you know how a hypertimeline branches, right? Here it's the opposite. Basically tsukishima creates a past that is congruent with the original timeline, in the present. I guess, I could already call them time axes and this is one of the main args behind the "Making Uncle Tsukishima proud part 2 post: Bleach always had 2 temporal dimensions"(I still haven't decided the name).

It is that scan. In the future, when I link scans from that site, I recommend either holding right-click on them until you're able to grab the link itself and paste it in a different tab, or left-click it and select the "open link in new tab" option. It should open up then, regardless of how you go about it.

---

I agree he is creating a new "past" when he utilizes his ability, presently. The thing is, he is also forming a new "timeline" that is congruent with that reconfiguration. It wouldn't actually cause a Paradox to occur as the present and future naturally follow from the past. It's not introducing something that would be contradictory to the present and future of that timeline, which is how Paradoxes like the Grandfather Paradox theoretically eventuate. I believe this theory is supported by other statements we're given about his ability and how Time itself operates in the series.

Tsukishima describes Time as not being "fixed" to a singular progression. It's something that is malleable and can be influenced by others with the ability to, like himself and Yukio. Giriko further expounds on this by stating that "infinite torrents of time" exist in Bleach's Cosmology. A plurality of "torrents" indicates a plurality of timelines, which are treated as temporally dissimilar enough to describe them as a plural set. Yhwach specifically affects these timelines by choosing from the set of timelines and actualizing the ones he desires. We have a surplus of indications that Time within Bleach is treated completely different to how Time within our Reality is asserted to work.

However, this does not change the fact that people's pasts are actively changed and other objects are being directly affected in the present by the change of the past. Ig you could say it's smth like this:

I agree that the past is informing the consequences of the present. I just believe how his ability works, he isn't manipulating the past in a way that would cause Paradoxes, like the ones resisted by Acausality Type 1, to occur.

 

[ItsMeat]

I agree he is creating a new "past" when he utilizes his ability, presently. The thing is, he is also forming a new "timeline" that is congruent with that reconfiguration.

Agree with this

It wouldn't actually cause a Paradox to occur as the present and future naturally follow from the past. It's not introducing something that would be contradictory to the present and future of that timeline, which is how Paradoxes like the Grandfather Paradox theoretically eventuate. I believe this theory is supported by other statements we're given about his ability and how Time itself operates in the series.

They indeed follow from the past, but here's the question: From what past? Book of The end changes individual pasts. Ik it probably sounds confusing, but the scan you've shown about time not being fixed to a single progression(a similar statement from tsulishima can be found in what I've just linked, lmao), also has giriko saying "Time flows trough everyone".

Tsukishima describes Time as not being "fixed" to a singular progression. It's something that is malleable and can be influenced by others with the ability to, like himself and Yukio. Giriko further expounds on this by stating that "infinite torrents of time" exist in Bleach's Cosmology. A plurality of "torrents" indicates a plurality of timelines, which are treated as temporally dissimilar enough to describe them as a plural set. Yhwach specifically affects these timelines by choosing from the set of timelines and actualizing the ones he desires. We have a surplus of indications that Time within Bleach is treated completely different to how Time within our Reality is asserted to work.

Yeah, all this is evidence for at least 2d of time for bleach cosmology, if not for 3, as garganta likely has 2d of time via dangai and the realms having different time axes and having a few mentions of multiple time axes across the series.

Anyway, disagree on yhwach actively choosing between timelines bcz they are called possible futures, not literally the timeline branching like in a hypertimeline, if you think all those possibilities are real, you are likely to get something more akin to modal realism, if they were real timelines, some of those futures wouldn't be possible as the pasts leading to them would be different and finally, there'd be an infinite amount of almighty users actively deleting/changing all the timelines as they want. We'd basically be in a worse situation than the multiversal war in marvel.

I agree that the past is informing the consequences of the present. I just believe how his ability works, he isn't manipulating the past in a way that would cause Paradoxes, like the ones resisted by Acausality Type 1, to occur.

Well, here is the thing, he changes each individual's past. Not the past they are from, but the very past they are bound by.

 

[Deceived3596]

No one has forgotten about this thread. You don't have to continue bumping it. I'll respond to this later, either today or tomorrow.

 

[ItsMeat]

Bump bump

 

[Deceived3596]

Brain worms

 

[ItsMeat]

No one has forgotten about this thread. You don't have to continue bumping it. I'll respond to this later, either today or tomorrow.

Ngl, I feel like it's a little ignored with 1k views and only 2 people sharing their opinions

 

[ItsMeat]

Bump

 

[Deceived3596]

They indeed follow from the past, but here's the question: From what past? Book of The end changes individual pasts. Ik it probably sounds confusing, but the scan you've shown about time not being fixed to a single progression(a similar statement from tsulishima can be found in what I've just linked, lmao), also has giriko saying "Time flows trough everyone"

It's affecting these individuals and their past, yes. But, It's doing this by forming a new timeline - a uniquely new progression of events - that is congruent with the new past events that Tsukishima has altered anew. Because of this, causing a Paradox like the Grandfather Paradox would be impossible since this new timeline temporally follows from past, present, and future, that is wholly unique and doesn't interfere with anything has already occurred or will occur.

Yeah, all this is evidence for at least 2d of time for bleach cosmology, if not for 3, as garganta likely has 2d of time via dangai and the realms having different time axes and having a few mentions of multiple time axes across the series.

Anyway, disagree on yhwach actively choosing between timelines bcz they are called possible futures, not literally the timeline branching like in a hypertimeline, if you think all those possibilities are real, you are likely to get something more akin to modal realism, if they were real timelines, some of those futures wouldn't be possible as the pasts leading to them would be different and finally, there'd be an infinite amount of almighty users actively deleting/changing all the timelines as they want. We'd basically be in a worse situation than the multiversal war in marvel.

It's evidence that Time within Bleach isn't an infallible progression of a particular set of Cause and Effect. It's malleable. And when manipulated, results in new possible outcomes. If we know this to be true, then contextualization surrounding Tsukishima and his ability has now been provided. If the timeline is considered as a "new" or "separate" flow, Tsukishima forming a new flow of actions and reactions wouldn't necessitate him being unaffected by Temporal Paradoxes because that flow is wholly congruent, it doesn't result in any contradictions.

Well, I never agreed that all logical possibilities are achievable by the Almighty - that's a separate claim. The claim I made, and I believe is supported by the Almighty, is that in Bleach, Time is malleable and results in different, temporal outcomes if infringed upon. Book of the End works under this principle exactly.

Well, here is the thing, he changes each individual's past. Not the past they are from, but the very past they are bound by.

Yes, it's in the sense of him still being bound to the past memories of his victims. It's a stated weakness of Book of the End that Tsukishima is unable to generate his own memories from nothing and use those. He must use preexisting memories to achieve his outcomes.

This isn't evidence that the timeline Tsukishima creates is still temporally contingent on the same timeline that Tsukishima and the rest are a part of. It's evidence that the timeline he created is informed by the past memories of the entities within the timeline he and everyone else are participating in.

 

[ItsMeat]

It's affecting these individuals and their past, yes. But, It's doing this by forming a new timeline - a uniquely new progression of events - that is congruent with the new past events that Tsukishima has altered anew

Uhhhh, what? I don't think I understand what you mean cuz this sounds like "But it's doing this by forming a new timeline(Tsukishima's new timeline) - a uniquely new progression of events -that is congruent with the past events that tsukishima has altered anew(the timeline created by BotE)". Basically you said A is congruent with A which kinda confuses me as I don't see the point in this...

Because of this, causing a Paradox like the Grandfather Paradox would be impossible since this new timeline temporally follows from past, present, and future, that is wholly unique and doesn't interfere with anything has already occurred or will occur.

Actually, as I have said and shown in the op, this new past interferes with the present and the future.

It's evidence that Time within Bleach isn't an infallible progression of a particular set of Cause and Effect. It's malleable. And when manipulated, results in new possible outcomes.

Isn't this basically valid for like any verse where the past can be changed? Yet acausality type 1 still exists. A famous example is Goku Black who survived the erasure of Zamasu from the past via the time ring. It's basically the same thing:

Db: Zamasu is erased in the past in a hypertimeline, so Goku Black wouldn't have been affected, but since it's a god erasing a god, this will deffinetely have an effect over space and time(Beerus' words) so Goku Black would've been erased, but he had ac type 1 with the time ring.

Bleach: The new past is created by BotE and it shouldn't affect anything in the present or future due to Bleach's temporal mechanics, but it does. So people should've been affected but here comes acausality type 1.

It's literally the same thing: the cosmology wouldn't normally allow it, but the ability makes it possible, yet the targets are unaffected by what happened in the past.

If we know this to be true, then contextualization surrounding Tsukishima and his ability has now been provided. If the timeline is considered as a "new" or "separate" flow, Tsukishima forming a new flow of actions and reactions wouldn't necessitate him being unaffected by Temporal Paradoxes because that flow is wholly congruent, it doesn't result in any contradictions.

Now you confuse me a little more. How can they be separate if they are congruent? I mean, separate can also mean different, but it's like the 2nd meaning. First one is "not joined" which clearly isn't the case. Anyway, I think I got what you mean this time.

And yeah, a new flow of actions from the past doesn't necessitate being unaffected by temporal paradoxes unless that new past affects the present and the future. Which is shown it does.

For an easy example, let's say we have a river with two tributaries. One of them natural(the original course of the river) and the 2nd one artificial. Now, let's say someone removes the natural one. What will flow on the river now? Only the water from the artificial one. (Ofc, the original timeline isn't removed or anything, it's just that people's pasts aren't under it anymore.). Idt this is the best example, but I think it is good enough to create a picture of what happens.

Well, I never agreed that all logical possibilities are achievable by the Almighty - that's a separate claim.

True enough, all you said is that he manipulates an infinite amount of timelines. This is hardly enough for modal realism.

The claim I made, and I believe is supported by the Almighty, is that in Bleach, Time is malleable and results in different, temporal outcomes if infringed upon. Book of the End works under this principle exactly.

Time being malleable and resulting in different oucomes if changed is exactly the arg for ac1 that is used, aka people being unaffected by what would lead to a different present. I don't think it's good to argue for the future here, bcz there are countless/infinite possible futures in bleach which makes everything too vague as nothing is set in stone, but the present is clear. Which confuses me even more as I am pretty sure you are against this so why bring it up? Anyway, you are right here, time in Bleach isn't working under the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle or under other things like Temporal Inertia.

Yes, it's in the sense of him still being bound to the past memories of his victims. It's a stated weakness of Book of the End that Tsukishima is unable to generate his own memories from nothing and use those. He must use preexisting memories to achieve his outcomes.

Huh? No, I think what I sent makes it clear it's the past of the victims. Not every past, but the very past they are bound by. Anyway about the supposed weakness, you are kinda wrong and kinda right, he can create memories and events related to himself as he likes. He can't create new people out of nothing, but he can do basically almost anything else. Which makes even more sense based on the same scan which says everyone has "a history" and a previous scan sent by you which says "time flows trough everyone".

This isn't evidence that the timeline Tsukishima creates is still temporally contingent on the same timeline that Tsukishima and the rest are a part of. It's evidence that the timeline he created is informed by the past memories of the entities within the timeline he and everyone else are participating in.

Yeah, it alone isn't enough, but I have also sent evidence that it in fact does affect the present and anything else which should be more than enough to prove the present and the future of the victims are part of the same continuity as the past tsukishima creates for them

 

[Deceived3596]

I've messaged a couple moderators, so hopefully they'll evaluate this thread eventually. In the mean time, I'll drop my response later on. It'll be either today or tomorrow depending on how free I am during those days.

 

[ItsMeat]

I've messaged a couple moderators, so hopefully they'll evaluate this thread eventually. In the mean time, I'll drop my response later on. It'll be either today or tomorrow depending on how free I am during those days.

Sure, thanks a lot man. I am going to sleep in a few hours, so even if you reply today my reply will probably come tommorrow.

 

[Nierre]

From what I understand Deceived is correct here. That CFYOW scan is evidence that the Bleach universe works similarly to the MW Model. What Tsukishima does is he directly links people into an alternate timeline via his cuts.

From what I can understand of Acasualty Type 1, it's only relevant in a single timeline case where reality is being rewritten and certain characters are unaffected, but what Tsukishima is doing is he's creating a separate timeline. So there's no paradox to be immune from if the original timeline is untouched.

 

[Theglassman12]

If the novels are anything to go off of it does seem to imply separate timelines are being created as a result of changing the past. This seems to be more in line with Future Trunks from dragon ball changing the past but it leading to another timeline rather than it being a full change to his timeline, only manifested into an ability for tsukishima. So I'll have to disagree with the type 1 acausality here due to it not being a proper paradox that tsukishima's shrugging off.

 

[ItsMeat]

I mean it literally does affect the present...

Also, glad you guys came, I started to kinda lose hope

 

[Theglassman12]

It’s not causing paradoxes given the mechanics explained in the novels

 

[ItsMeat]

He basically creates another timeline from the past, but then he makes so the victim did follow the new past instead of the old one. And, as shown, this has effects over the present. Wouldn't this allow paradoxes to exist?

A good example is the whole fixing Tensa Zangetsu thing where:

1. Yhwach breaks it in all possible futures.

2. Orihime tries to restore it but she can't bcz there was no future where it wasn't broken.

3. Tsukishima changes Ichigo's past to one where the sword was never broken.

4. However, nothing happens, the sword isn't magically restored.

5. Orihime uses her causality manipulation powers to restore it now that it wasn't broken in the past as the sword was only broken in all the possible futures resulting from the original past.

 

[Deceived3596]

Tsukishima isn't forming, and then manipulating the totality of the timeline he generates. He is only manipulating the past, which results in the consequences of the present and future being influenced by those past events. If he was doing the former, I would agree that it would be theoretically tenable for him to do something like that. But since I disagree with him actually doing that, I don't think we can say with any strong certainty that he has the capabilities to do such a thing.

Anything related to Yhwach and his situation would be contingent on how the Cosmology operates within Bleach. We both have posited different interpretations, and the evaluating staff agrees with my interpretation more. It would be nice to have more staff helping out with the thread, but it's difficult to get more people to participate it seems.

 

[ItsMeat]

Tsukishima isn't forming, and then manipulating the totality of the timeline he generates. He is only manipulating the past, which results in the consequences of the present and future being influenced by those past events. If he was doing the former, I would agree that it would be theoretically tenable for him to do something like that. But since I disagree with him actually doing that, I don't think we can say with any strong certainty that he has the capabilities to do such a thing.

So, you need to manipulate the entire timeline directly and simply manipulating the past which results in the changes to the present and future isn't enough in orther to get ac1 or time paradox immunity?

Anything related to Yhwach and his situation would be contingent on how the Cosmology operates within Bleach. We both have posited different interpretations, and the evaluating staff agrees with my interpretation more. It would be nice to have more staff helping out with the thread, but it's difficult to get more people to participate it seems.

Yeah, it would be nice to get more staff, this isn’t a very easy subject which is probably why most of those who read this didn't leave a comment, the two staff members who replied are goats for this. You 2.

 

[Damage3245]

So far I'm leaning more towards Decieved's side here.

 

[ItsMeat]

So far I'm leaning more towards Decieved's side here.

You 100% agree with him, or do you have another reasoning? It would be nice to hear more opinions

 

[Deceived3596]

So, you need to manipulate the entire timeline directly and simply manipulating the past which results in the changes to the present and future isn't enough in orther to get ac1 or time paradox immunity?

You don't necessarily need to manipulate an entire timeline to create time paradoxes, I just gave a more explicit example to better convey what I meant by needing stronger evidence supporting your claim of Acausality (Type 1).

If, for example, you were able to time travel to an earlier version of yourself and kill it, and still remain living despite it being paradoxical that you're both alive and dead at the same time, that could be enough to get Acausality (Type 1) without it requiring you to affect the timeline in its totality.

Yeah, it would be nice to get more staff, this isn’t a very easy subject which is probably why most of those who read this didn't leave a comment, the two staff members who replied are goats for this. You 2.

Probably. It also doesn't help that Bleach has a bad reputation on-site because of previous threads, and members, negatively painting the fandom. Still, threads usually get a decent amount of attention after a while. And with three different mods now participating in it, I believe that shows what I say to be correct.

I appreciate the compliment, but you don't have to. I'm participating here because I found the thread interesting, despite my disagreements with it.