Light Novel Adaptions

[LordAizenSama]

I know this is a bit out of nowhere but it's a topic that would concern a few verses on the wiki.

How exactly, if the Lightnovel gets a adaption to a anime, do we interpret it? do we just stick to the lightnovel as the only viable source, or can we use feats from the anime because of the visuals?

I've noticed this coming up repeatedly for the last few days and I don't think the wiki has a specific rule for it, so i'm interested in hearing opinions on this. I've always acted under the assumption that the original primary canon was the only acceptable version, and that the anime shouldn't be used.

if this is the case I know for a fact there is verses on the wiki that have lightnovels but the feats are mainly shown from the anime, and due to the likely lack of people who actually continue from the anime to read the Lightnovels it's very likely you will not get accurate stats reflected on their profile, if any stats at all. it may also cause anime only viewers to go looking for quotes from a lightnovel which may simply be things out of context and hyperbole, but if no-one else reads the lightnovel it becomes harder to make a case for and against the proposed stats .So alas i'm feeling a little conflicted on this issue.

I understand that lightnovels can be extremely tedious to get feats from due to the lack of images, and that's something that the anime can help with. so should there be leniency on anime adaptations of lightnovels and accept feats from both sources?

I've also seen suggestions for making separate profiles for them, like a anime version and a lightnovel version, but I really don't think that's a good idea.

-However if a anime following a Lightnovel goes into filler arcs or whatnot, that shouldn't be acceptable at all under any circumstance.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

I believe the VN is the more viable version, unless the author(s) or authority on the canon of the subject itself says otherwise.

But if not, I say making seperate profiles is a good idea, IMO.

I also agree with your filler stance.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I don't like the idea of separate Profiles, It would dilute from the original source too much I believe.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I think we could use anime feats unless or until it contradicts the original sauce. Because let's face it, 90% of adaptations are half-assed and/or oftentimes changed to fit the transfer of media (or budget...yeah, looking at you kuusen madoushi and seirei tsukai no blade dance).

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

While I'm personally very strict with canonicity, there's a fact that not many people read Light Novel, and the anime adaptations are far more popular. Many light novel feats are hard to interpret and outliers/hyperboles are hard to pin point because of this reason, because of lack of imagery. This is a very different case from manga, which is also vastly more popular compared to light novels.

So in my opinion, as long as anime feats from Light Novels are exactly the same and consistent, we can be lenient towards it. We can't treat the light novels same as manga because the low amount of readers of LN, and feats are hard to quantifiy in general from block of text. As you said, people take quotes from Light Novel out of context far too often. We can use the anime feats as much as it's covered in the LN, and disregard any filler feat.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I find light novels tedious as there isnt any visual representations to judge feats by.Having seperate profiles provides too much unecessary work.I think anime should be used as long as it doesnt contradict anything from the light novel.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

I think we could use anime feats unless or until it contradicts the original sauce.

Sauce, lol.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am with agreement with Faisal.

As long as the anime stays consistent with the Light Novel and doesn't derail completely, I think it can be used as a source for feats.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Basically, what Matthew and Faisal said

If the anime/manga doesnt contradict the Lights Novels, then the feats are reliable

The question would be if use the manga or anime.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think it depends on the verse, really.

There are some series that are relatively small, and we end up with Composite profiles (Darkstalkers, for instance, taking feats from games, anime and comic), while others are very large, with multiple continuities that contradict each other.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Regarding having separate profiles, I think it's fine if there's a big difference between the original and the adaptation.

Akame ga Kill for example.



Incursio

 

[AidenBrooks999]

So... If the verse has only a couple of contradictions

We can make a composite profile?

 

[DontTalk]

If we say Anime is allowed for light novels I know we will shortly after have to remake all HST profiles because they will want to start using anime feats as well.

I feel like manga is ok for secondary canon, and pretty much all light novels that get anime adaptations also get manga adaptations, but animes have a tendency to give bad results.

They are also way less reliable given that easily 70 people are involved in making those.

So using manga I would consider, using anime less. And of course also only if there are no contradictions in feats and depiction.


I also agree that having an anime version and a light novel/manga version is a bad idea.

(personally I also have the feeling that light novels can be done... and I have been making a bunch of profiles for light novel characters)

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I'm basically with the same as what Faisal and Matt said.

Even though i may not follow series that uses LN's or were orginated from them, so long as the anime or manga don't contradict the original feats done in the LN's, then it's alright i guess. *shrugs*

 

[LordAizenSama]

@DontTalk I agree, I've just seen this come up recently and just want a thread that decisively ends all the little arguments appearing here and there, but i'm willing to accept whatever this threads answer is.

 

[Alakabamm]

I've already stated my opinion on this subject but I think that faithful interpretations of LNs are fairgame in any format, unless the author specifically states that what was shown was noncanon (e.g. Tokyo Ghoul season 1).

 

[Antvasima]

I am somewhat undecided about this.

On the one hand, Faisal has a point about that as long as the adaptions seem to faithfully adapt the source material, it might be alright to allow it.

On the other hand I am worried that if we allow this for light novels we might get lots of members who demand that we should count anime adaptions for manga series. (However, I suppose that we could simply refer them to a page outlining the specifics, and hope that we do not enter slippery slope territory.)

As DontTalk mentioned, there is also the fact that there are lots of people involved in anime adaptions, making it unlikely that they are usually particularly reliable, unless the original author closely oversees the work progress, as ONE has done with One-Punch Man.

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree that multiple versions of the characters would likely be confusing and gradually turn the site into quite a mess. We likely have too much of that already.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Depends on the case

In my case with Rakudai Kishi, the anime has some contradictions, but the manga is a really good adaptation and (IIRC) the author supervise the manga

 

[DontTalk]

Depends on the case
In my case with Rakudai Kishi, the anime has some contradictions, but the manga is a really good adaptation and (IIRC) the author supervise the manga

That the author actually supervises or writes the manga is actually something not all that uncommon and, as said, most LN with anime adaption also have a manga adaption. That's why I think the better question would be to generally consider the manga secondary canon (-fillers).

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

That the author actually supervises or writes the manga is actually something not all that uncommon and, as said, most LN with anime adaption also have a manga adaption. That's why I think the better question would be to generally consider the manga secondary canon (-fillers).

Ok, I the the original post needs to be edited somewhat and put manga there as well

So in terms of canonicity- LN first, then manga, then anime

If there's no manga adaptation, then anime is the secondary canon (unless there is filler)

Is this correct?

 

[DontTalk]

@Faisal Shourov: In my opinion anime is better to not be used at all except if it is canon after usual criterias (the author supervising it or similar things)

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

@DontTalk : How do you view the canonicity status of Campione! anime? Godou dodging lightning scene was also present in the light novel and the situation was pretty much the same. In this case can the anime be used to find speed from timeframe?

 

[DontTalk]

@DontTalk : How do you view the canonicity status of Campione! anime? Godou dodging lightning scene was also present in the light novel and the situation was pretty much the same. In this case can the anime be used to find speed from timeframe?

I don't know the anime at all, but especially given that it has a canon manga (as far as I see from wikipedia) I wouldn't agree to that. As said with that you pretty much already go to using anime feats for HST. If we did that they would completly legitimately demand anime feats to be used.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I don't know the anime at all, but especially given that it has a canon manga (as far as I see from wikipedia) I wouldn't agree to that. As said with that you pretty much already go to using anime feats for HST. If we did that they would completly legitimately demand anime feats to be used.

The manga only has 4 chapters from what's available in major manga sites, and is WAY behind anime from what I found, let alone the light novel. The feat I'm talking about is present in the anime and lightnovel, but not the manga (since the manga hasn't caught up to it yet). Alakabamm confirmed there's no filler for Campione! anime. What do you think now?

 

[DontTalk]

Given the general principal I am talking about here I would still not use it.

When it comes to lightning dodging you can likely do a legtimate guess based on the light novel either way (I mean lightning fired on a person in talking range and that person dodging would still give a good feat with reasonable assumptions).

I could now begin bringing up things that are wrongly depicted in anime where lightnovel openly contradicts, like the fact that Touma in the very first 2 minutes or something of the to aru majutsu no index anime is depicted MHS, while the light novel explains that touma actually didn't move during that scene at all (much later), but that is generally bothersome and its not like it holds relevance to the general rule.

For short I stick to my opinion that anime is a bad idea.

 

[Alakabamm]

Touma has precognition and Misaka wasn't trying to kill him

 

[DontTalk]

Touma has precognition and Misaka wasn't trying to kill him

Exactly. But precognition was only introduced during World war III I think (speed of lightning has nothing to do with killing or not). In other words much later. Until then there would be nothing contradicting the anime in that feat (except it being an outlier of course, but those are always a thing up for debate)

EDIT: But as said specific examples should not be relevant for the general rule. We are not trying to hold a vote based on whos favourite verses would get a stat boost from this.

The whole discussion just makes me more confident that just canon stuff is the better way to go.

 

[GreatestSin]

i would say:

1. if the anime/manga isnt showing different contents than the original source than it is ok to use them, but it is possible that the anime/manga gives extra content like in the naruto, so it is to debate if they can be used too as feats if necessary (as long as fillers/more content arent already made to be non-cannon and/or go against established laws of the verse in question) ^_^

2. if the original source isnt giving a clear size of things and uses words lik "incredible big", "unbelievable fast", etc. than it is ok to use the anime/manga which make it easier to get a clearer pictire of said feat ^_^

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I agree the manga should be used as secondary canon, over that of the anime as due to a necessity of entertaining the audience, more contradictions may appear in the more stimulating visual video media, sometimes contradicting canonical information in the process.

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree that using the anime for feats for LN profiles might be problematic if fans of other series who have manga as the primary canon start demanding the same treatment. Plus, LN adaptations are quite infamous for usually going off rails or completely failing as an adaptation, being usually just used to advertise the LNs themselves. Even actually decent adaptations like the animes for Index and Heavy Object do things differently or cut some parts. And the less we talk about Railgun fillers, the better.

Then again, LNs are not like mangas where feats are easier to find and calc, so some LN verses might suffer a lot from this, as most of what they rely on is on statements of various degrees of reliability. This is definitely a tricky subject.

 

[Antvasima]

After a bit of consideration, I agree with DontTalk. It is probably safer to stick with the original canon, with the possible exception of if the original author has closely overseen the production of the manga or anime.

 

[RavenSupreme]

one thing which bothers me is that light novels usually throw in certain buzzwords and statements which are contradicting the overal storyling.

a very good example is for example the certain magical index, where 4 statements in the storyline put certain feats at FTL level and heavily contradict the overall powersetting.

example

"She released a lightning spear from it. The spear of purple electricity moved forward at the speed of light and held enough destructive force to knock someone unconscious. She did not think that it would act as a fatal blow. As long as it distracted him long enough for her to get away, that was enough. However, the lightning spear she had fired at the boy rebounded and struck her in her own chest."


example 2

"There were only 7 meters between Kamijou and Mikoto.

That distance was too great for Kamijou to reach her in one step, but it was well within the range of Mikoto's electrical attacks that moved at the speed of light."


example 3

"Kamijou Touma's calm and composed expression stiffened awkwardly. Even with a right hand that could completely negate those light-speed lightning spears, it was sheer coincidence that they struck his right hand."


example 4

"It was a bolt of lightning fired from a Level Five esper's hair. It was the same as trying to elude a light-speed lightning strike unleashed from a dark cloud - but only once you saw it coming."


we have to be aware that "power creeping" is an actual thing for many users which obviusly want their favourite verse to be powerful in comparison to others. if we allow the usage of LN we encourage the heavy out-of context usage when there is no clear canon source given, since the author "has written it black on white"

i am for a technical approach.

a) in cases where we ONLY have the LN and no anime or manga we obviously refer to the light novel

b) in cases where we have the LN first and the ANIME/MANGA later replacing it, we use the ANIME/MANGA if the AUTHOR was part of the animes/mangas creation, since we go by the newest fluff

c) if an ANIME/MANGA ends but the LN still continues, progressing the story we use the LN as canon source for the feats and events which happen after the anime, until the anime continues and we move to scenario b)

 

[DontTalk]

-Stuff-

Disagreed. The Light Novel is the most canon source and always takes precedence. That one has to use a bit of reading comprehension when doing so is just a necessarity.

That something is light speed is for example a common metaphor used to say that something is fast in the japanese language (as far as I know). I believe in english the more common metaphor is "as fast as lightning" or something.

I can agree with the approach of staying by using only canon material, in the case the author was involved in anime/manga they should be used just as secondary canon however.

 

[RavenSupreme]

your stuff
people will not argue with the reasonable "its a common metaphor" argument but jump on the literal translation which obviously inflates the entire verse. everyone knows how dangerous the usage of statements even in animes or manga can be since it often represents authors intent in a term of virtual powerdifference but often gets misused for people to inflate the characters they support

(light speed naruto part 1 characters, whitebeard destroying the world etc.) if we now give them a tool to actively search for statements made by the author in the ln (which will obviously happen since it only consists of statements) we have to face a ludicrous amount of power jumping based of feats which are not depicted in neither the follow up anime/manga

---

so yeha. using the anime / manga with authors involvement is the best way to go for grasping a consistent picture of a verse and characters power. future events then can be scaled from the ln

 

[DontTalk]

Many details that are completly legitimate are lost in the manga. LN do at times make very legitimate statements, like that something was vaporization if one could think it was pulverization in the manga, the specific speed of a character being stated also happens, the size of things being stated as well.

All such things and many more details are lost in a manga simply because narration is cut down.

Not to mention a bunch of relevant feats. The author can much more freely and accurately describe his characters in a novel then in a manga.

I have worked with the LN on here for a year by now and have likely created around 50 profiles for characters of at least a few different lightnovels. They have good feats and it is not that hard to interpret them if one goes at it with a bit reason.

People trying to inflate their verses powers by dubious stuff happens in manga just as often as LN, if not more often. Discussions about LN interpretations of statements are comparatively rare in my experience.

Basically the capability to deal with written text is just something that has to be there for LN as well as for Books. And the feats need to be checked either way.

So, in other words, a change in that direction is unnecessary, given that in the current state of things in which LN take precedence we can already see that the problems with it aren't that large at all.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that what DontTalk wrote makes sense.

Are you interested in writing (yet another) regulation page (sorry about constantly bothering you with this), after we have waited for some more input from other staff members?

 

[DontTalk]

Hmm.. Well if we stay by just canon stuff just a few additions and maybe clean up of the cano page should suffice, I think?

I don't know if we should maybe get Lord Kavpeny's opinion on it first, given that regulations about canoncity of things are some of the most fundamental rules on the wiki.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

But, if the author supervice the manga/anime adaption, and allow a change, that's canon or it doesn't?

 

[LordAizenSama]

I believe Kav said he would take a look at this, later. He's just busy in real life at the moment