Boxing Genius vs The Mentalist (0-0-0)

[DeltaStriker22]

Ryu Baeksan vs Seungha Jo​

Rules:

• Speed is not equalized.
• Starting Distance: 10 meters
• Location: Boxing Ring

• No prep time. No prior knowledge.
• Both are in character but willing to kill.
• Start of series Ryu's Stats:
  • AP/Dura: 7.776 Kilojoules
  • Speed: At least 34.3 m/s, higher attack speed
  • LS: Should be at least 50 Kg (average human)
• Seungha's Stats:
  • AP/Dura: At least 15 Kilojoules
  • Speed: At least 34.3 m/s
  • LS: 277 Kg

Seungha’s advantages:

• 1.92x AP and 5.54x LS advantage.
• Superhuman stamina.
• More combat experience.

Siha’s advantages:

• Higher attack speed.
• Resistance to ANPR.
• Better Acrobatics.

Ryu Baeksan (0):
Seungha Jo (0):
Inconclusive (0):

 

[azontr]

I'm not even gonna lie, I care about Siha so little that idek if I wanna argue for him.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

I'm not really sure who has the better ANPR (Siha's is more layered but Seungha has better feats).

Siha has a resistance to ANPR via the techniques he's copied from Ryu so those should be able to get past Seongha's ANPR, at least initially, I'm sure Seongha can create counters to (and possibly copy) the 'Ryu Acrobatics' stuff with his info analysis and genius intelligence.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

What?? I didn’t even know this existed

I'm not really sure who has the better ANPR (Siha's is more layered but Seungha has better feats).

Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if his was more layered. The boxer seems really like one of those overly skilled manwhas you see one in a while, but Seungha has some decently layered ANPR. I mentioned some of it on the latter thread where it constitute of The three cheols, Hanwool Phi, Siwan Cheon, Uchan, Younghyun Ji and Gamin Youn.

Siha has a resistance to ANPR via the techniques he's copied from Ryu so those should be able to get past Seongha's ANPR, at least initially, I'm sure Seongha can create counters to (and possibly copy) the 'Ryu Acrobatics' stuff with his info analysis and genius intelligence.

Resistance to ANPR is pretty neat but does it help with Seungha’s actual Mentalism and the whole passive blind spot gimmick? I fear that Seungha has ways around his resistance but I don’t think Mentalism is going to be something Seungha uses initially. I also don’t think this is something new to Seungha. Remember how Minhwan Ma couldn’t be read by Seungha due to his crazy nature? I feel like this might be too much guesswork but Seungha had mentioned it’s been a while since he’s encountered someone he couldn’t read and he wasn’t actually using Mentalism at that moment. His eyes were closed after he was cold reading Geonyob. While Mentalism reasonably grants enhanced/greater analytical prediction ETC would it be too much guesswork to say it could bypass Minhwan’s resistance?

 

[azontr]

Well, the average genius is inherently unpredictable due to how talent in the boxer works, and Ryu's unpredictability is several leagues above that, so just being able to predict someone you couldn't read before isn't going to help against Ryu. Not to mention that geniuses also get better in combat, so his acrobatics would continuously improve to find more paths that Seungha cant predict.

 

[azontr]

wtf i thought this was a ryu match. sob emoji. ignore my ass

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

All good. So on the flip side Siha isn’t as busted as Yu but he’s clearly still got some things going on for himself. You can correct me at any point in time but seems like he has similar ANPR as Yu. He can predict based on habits, patterns and I guess his enhanced senses should help too. Blood flow and heart beat should in theory help to an extent but I don’t think it’d help in actually knowing what action they’ll commit but the spike in the two could in a way notify him.

I’m not saying it’s useless at all, it’s definitely very neat and this could be my inexperience but Study Group character who have reached the state of kill or be killed tend to remain monotone and calm in a way. We see this with Geonyob who’s had a massive contrast to his character from before. Upon killing his friend Jung Dohoon IIRC, there’s a big shift in his characteristics and we’re no longer seeing someone who’s emotional or irrational but is cold and composed. In both character and brawling.

Fatigue also isn’t going to kick in anytime soon so I don’t think Siha should rely on that. I don’t think he will anyway considering he’s seen as being the observational type of person who later uses his gathered information to his advantage in the ‘second round.’ There’s obviously no rounds here so I imagine Siha will turn the tables whenever he feels his observation is done. But back onto stamina, how good is his stamina roughly? I know it says athletic but what does that account to? And what’s a rough estimation of how long he’d last before his tank starts to decrease?

Seungha to an extent would notice he’s trying to analyse him too. It’s what Gamin does with the whole “prioritising the prior” and “prioritising the after” which I won’t get into detail here since I had already done so. But AFAIK on Seungha’s combat intelligence near towards the end of the paragraph, Gamin does mention how his ANPR is nothing like he’s been against before, even referencing a previous foe who gave him issues formerly. His Mentalism itself is also giving him an upper hand by allowing him to see his opponent’s blind spots constantly, it also does factor in changes of behaviour or erratic movements. It also helps outside of combat applicability and can be used as a form of information analysis to gather information himself.

While brief, Seungha does also say in response that he isn’t stalking but marking. This was in response to Gamin accusing him of stalking his teacher and it makes sense given his nature. He’s obviously not a magician but a “mentalist” and AFAIK mentalists and magicians or rather fortune tellers are similar in how they conduct themselves and the skills they use. Mentalism marking can be something you do by using tactical folds which can help identify things. Cards if you will if you’re performing a magic trick, Seungha’s is just straight up superhuman. Once you’re marked that’s where it goes wrong.

While one could argue it’s just for aesthetics I think it’s known when we’re given an image of Seungha’s eyes being present while Geonyob was being traitorous. We even see some more of Geonyob’s memory’s or instances of being shown so it’s likely just implicit in telling us Seungha knew. Geonyob doesn’t actually play into his cold reading either. At least not entirely, it’s not answering any of Seungha’s question AFAIK it’s more like a sixth sense. He’s just cold reading while Geonyob is obviously slightly worried on his exposure (pre killing his friend) and as a result of his cover almost being blown he decides to try and kill Seungha which was a stupid move.

I hate that I was taught boxing and don’t watch boxing but from a Google search apparently professional boxing rounds are 3 minutes? I’m not going to abide by it just yet since the boxer isn’t exactly realistic and they may have different ways of doing things. If that is the case then wouldn’t that mean Siha takes approximately 3 minutes to study you? If that’s the case then I think he’s a bit short since Seungha does it instantly but I could be wrong.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

Fatigue also isn’t going to kick in anytime soon so I don’t think Siha should rely on that. I don’t think he will anyway considering he’s seen as being the observational type of person who later uses his gathered information to his advantage in the ‘second round.’ There’s obviously no rounds here so I imagine Siha will turn the tables whenever he feels his observation is done. But back onto stamina, how good is his stamina roughly? I know it says athletic but what does that account to? And what’s a rough estimation of how long he’d last before his tank starts to decrease?

Professional boxing has 12 rounds which are all 3 minutes.
I think it's safe to assume that Siha should be able to fight for at least 36 minutes before fatigue starts to set in.

I hate that I was taught boxing and don’t watch boxing but from a Google search apparently professional boxing rounds are 3 minutes? I’m not going to abide by it just yet since the boxer isn’t exactly realistic and they may have different ways of doing things. If that is the case then wouldn’t that mean Siha takes approximately 3 minutes to study you? If that’s the case then I think he’s a bit short since Seungha does it instantly but I could be wrong.

Yes, it takes Siha 1 round/3 minutes to learn his opponent's attack patterns, rhythms, timing, etc before he can use his ANPR.
If Seungha can knock him out before that happens it's GGs.

 

[azontr]

'Tis a common misconception that that's how it works, but the time it takes to predict his opponent varies based on the opponent. He was able to predict Jay's movements after a short exchange with him at the weigh-in, and the only reason he was caught off-guard was because Jay's physical specs themselves were beyond his expectations, but his predictions immediately adjusted.

 

[azontr]

Either way tho, I don't think Siha wins. Even if his prediction is hypothetically better or on par, he doesn't have the physical specs to make it in a slugging match. That was one of the main weaknesses of his in his fight with Jay is that Jay was just better at taking punches.

Voting Seungha.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Professional boxing has 12 rounds which are all 3 minutes.
I think it's safe to assume that Siha should be able to fight for at least 36 minutes before fatigue starts to set in.

I feel like a fraud for forgetting that . Yeah 36 minutes sounds reasonable.

Tis a common misconception that that's how it works, but the time it takes to predict his opponent varies based on the opponent. He was able to predict Jay's movements after a short exchange with him at the weigh-in, and the only reason he was caught off-guard was because Jay's physical specs themselves were beyond his expectations, but his predictions immediately adjusted.

Ah it’s one of those varied abilities. I understand and apologies for misinterpreting it. He’s pretty much the same as Seungha I’d say. I don’t believe Seungha needs exchanges, he isn’t really portrayed as needing to exchange a few blows to gauge level of skilling or methods done by said characters. With Gamin he pretty much dodges a sudden punch and he must’ve said something along the lines of ‘this should be enough.’ While he does need to cold read people to a certain extent he can do it of initial movement. He also gains that very insight without his Mentalism but Mentalism makes it worse since on top of his base readability and intellect, it’s stacked with enhancements and blind spot perception. I believe you did say you thought Jay won and if you want we could perhaps change it to Jay?

For now I’m voting Seungha. If Siha was to be changed I’ll happily retract my vote and see more arguments

 

[azontr]

I believe you did say you thought Jay won and if you want we could perhaps change it to Jay?

Never uttered that even once in my entire life. Must be thinking of someone else. Jay would lose even harder.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Never uttered that even once in my entire life. Must be thinking of someone else. Jay would lose even harder.

Sorry I’m bad with names, I think it was Ryu?

 

[DeltaStriker22]

Either way tho, I don't think Siha wins. Even if his prediction is hypothetically better or on par, he doesn't have the physical specs to make it in a slugging match. That was one of the main weaknesses of his in his fight with Jay is that Jay was just better at taking punches.

Voting Seungha.

Counted.

 

[azontr]

Sorry I’m bad with names, I think it was Ryu?

That would be who you're thinking of, yes.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

For now I’m voting Seungha. If Siha was to be changed I’ll happily retract my vote and see more arguments

Counted.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

I think Jean could be a good opponent.
Should I make the match after this one?

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

I think Jean could be a good opponent.
Should I make the match after this one?

It’s up to you really. If you’d like to change the character now, then by all means. I’m also not really familiar with the boxer so I can’t really give a sure fire answer but if he’s not Yu level then I think it should be fine? We can test it out and see for ourselves

 

[azontr]

He's not Yu level, but he's basically the closest thing to Yu level in the verse in terms of skill.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

He's not Yu level, but he's basically the closest thing to Yu level in the verse in terms of skill.

That might be quite problematic. Does Seungha stand a chance at all in your opinion?

 

[azontr]

The skill isn't the biggest issue; it's Jean's punching range. He can punch at a range of nearly 10 feet from a standing position. He can basically launch blows from one end of a boxing ring to another. It's really difficult to even get into range with him.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

Since it looks like Siha was getting stomped, I've changed the match to Ryu (start of series key).
Let's see how this one goes before putting Seungha against Jean.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Well, the average genius is inherently unpredictable due to how talent in the boxer works, and Ryu's unpredictability is several leagues above that, so just being able to predict someone you couldn't read before isn't going to help against Ryu. Not to mention that geniuses also get better in combat, so his acrobatics would continuously improve to find more paths that Seungha cant predict.

Azontr did mention this. I am a bit skeptical on whether or not Seungha’s Mentalism would work however. I think this mainly comes down to if Seungha’s ANPR layering can match his Ryu’s resistance or if his greater ANPR encompasses his. On the bright side, Seungha still has Mentalism pursuit tracking at his disposal to get a grasp of his blind spots without end. Pursuit tracking is also shown as granting enhanced awareness too, having focus on all your enemy’s limbs simultaneously, the trajectory and path of their attack before it’s set too.

Seungha does also like to use Mentalism a lot. He’ll sometimes use them in short bursts or use them outright to completely dominate his opponent. Seungha does also have Mentalism forcing where he’s described as having a deck of cards that come into existence via his Mentalism and cold reading. He uses a series of attacks to get the responses he wants. It also requires some misleading since he’s manipulating his opponent into thinking they have freedom and forcing them into a cutscene of his already thought out simulations.

How does he use his acrobatics? Seungha also incredibly acrobatic himself and mainly relies on it for evasion but I don’t think it’ll be too far fetched to say he could mimic. I’m also going to go to sleep since it’s quite late so I won’t be able to reply back until later