Kefka vs Kafka (4-5-0)

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

It works just by hearing it. And she has Neutral Vision.

Well, with prior knowledge in play, would Kefka be able to avoid Whisper's effects by just plugging in his earbuds or otherwise not hearing it (I would suggest via teleporting away but that might be a moot point if house rules say that Honkai attacks can reach anything anywhere no matter what)?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Well, with prior knowledge in play, would Kefka be able to avoid Whisper's effects by just plugging in his earbuds or otherwise not hearing it (I would suggest via teleporting away but that might be a moot point if house rules say that Honkai attacks can reach anything anywhere no matter what)?

she can use her threads to inflict it as well. they don't need to be "thrown" by her. they just appear around people

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

she can use her threads to inflict it as well. they don't need to be "thrown" by her. they just appear around people

Ok, that sounds helpful, and with prior knowledge she'll probably do that as a more reliable move than ASMR. Do you have footage of the threads?

 

[Hypertornado099]

Doesn't Kafka resist being put into a block of ice, not being turned into ice? Two different animals, there.

It depends on how the freeze status effect looks like in Honkai and how she resists it. Is she immune to being frozen? If so, she would resist this. If she can survive being frozen into a block of ice and eventually thaw herself, then its harder to tell if it would be enough.

Kefka's freezing spell only momentarily leaves you frozen so its not that much worse than simply putting you in a block of ice

 

[Hypertornado099]

Fire res just means she can take the heat, not that she will be unbothered by many of her electrons just being fire now.

Her electrons aren't being "turned into fire"

 

[Mbpoops]

Ok, that sounds helpful, and with prior knowledge she'll probably do that as a more reliable move than ASMR. Do you have footage of the threads?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

man that trailer's music is still legendary even after 3 years

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Pardon? It's been accepted and used before that this range is combat applicable.

Send me a single scan or feat of Kafka of ALL characters having combat applicable 11D range, I'll gladly wait

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Send me a single scan or feat of Kafka of ALL characters having combat applicable 11D range, I'll gladly wait

I can't because she doesn't have one. She's still chainscaled to it however by being a pathstrider and using imaginary energy which has this property.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I can't because she doesn't have one.

Case closed then

 

[Mbpoops]

Send me a single scan or feat of Kafka of ALL characters having combat applicable 11D range, I'll gladly wait

its combat applicable in that they can fight/interact with 11D beings but im pretty sure thats about it

 

[Hypertornado099]

I can't because she doesn't have one. She's still chainscaled to it however by being a pathstrider and using imaginary energy which has this property.

Case closed then

Does she even need 11D range? I feel like any other ranged attacks of hers is enough

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Case closed then

Did you only read the first part of the sentence?

Does she even need 11D range? I feel like any other ranged attacks of hers is enough

No. He himself said he's not flying away so I don't know how this impacts the fight.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Does she even need 11D range? I feel like any other ranged attacks of hers is enough

No she doesn't, hence why I'm confused why this was even brought up at all

 

[Mbpoops]

Does she even need 11D range? I feel like any other ranged attacks of hers is enough

she can interact with 11D beings but her range is the same as indexed. extradimensional range is basically just an interaction barrier negation so her range is basically just hundreds of kilometers

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

No she doesn't, hence why I'm confused why this was even brought up at all

??? Are you alright brother? Glassman said that he's going to fly away and spam spells. I said that no matter where he goes, her range can get him.

 

[Mbpoops]

??? Are you alright brother? Glassman said that he's going to fly away and spam spells. I said that no matter where he goes, her range can get him.

her range is still hundreds of meters (idk if the page is specific) extradimensional range just lets you interact with an extradimensional being, like aeons or the anti spiral etcetc it doesnt increase the distance you cover but you can interact with higher dimensional spaces.

 

[Hypertornado099]

??? Are you alright brother? Glassman said that he's going to fly away and spam spells. I said that no matter where he goes, her range can get him.

He probably won't do that, nothing about Kafka's capabilities would make him want to fly away. Read the analysis I posted for what Kefka does in character

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Thanks for the footage, I think that gives me enough for some final thoughts before I head out soon. Since both have prior knowledge and various means of oneshotting each other -- Kefka having not just the Ubel resistance-overrides but also other duranegs such as Death spells & Kafka having not only sound AoE but also the gesture-based almost-instantspawn oneshot (even just from AP alone not accounting for being coated in hax) -- it seems this boils down to a quick-draw of who can act faster even with equalized speed.

Range on both profiles (including Kefka's, not just Kafka's) is arguably dubious. Some conflation of NPI, AP, and/or traversal with sniping range when each should be indicated separately. But I'm going to assume keep-away via sheer distance won't work for either here since she probably can hit things at a fair distance and Kefka did his cross-continental beams after the statue amps. His flight will help with moving constantly, but it isn't the deciding factor and Kafka doesn't seem short on string to reach judging by the trailer. Her 11D whatever sounds wonky but it isn't as if Kefka can snipe from another universe without even seeing her, anyway.

Kafka does seem to need gestures to summon and pull the strings, and the strings do take like a quarter-second to materialize into damage when they appear in gameplay, but there's little grandstanding, that is fast. In FF6, there are some spells that are more instantly transmitted as opposed to just the fireball/lightning stuff, but they're typically speech-activated. If Kefka can activate faster, then his teleportation, clones, and spatial manipulation (not so much invisibility or illusions since Kafka might see through those via data NPI) could act as defense/escape even as strings form around him & a way to reposition; time manipulation (haste/slow) could help, too. But that's a big if; it really might come down to whether speaking is faster than gesturing. Then again, Kefka pulled that cloning trick and so on while Leo was right in front of him with no visible gesture or spoken casting at all; even if he doesn't outright fool Kafka, that could buy time for landing offense.


I think even with both knowing every detail of that the other can do, Kefka can attack outright or more likely pull a disappearing/cloning act (since that seemed even less limited in activation speed) to buy him the extra second he needs. But this being a close quickdraw, it could go either way depending on interpretations of activation speeds. I'll be chaotic neutral by noting that you could also argue that FF magic being a subset of subjective reality (whatever degree of authority/potency it has) could result in it being nulled by sufficient reality warping resistance in general, but that's another can of worms and more of a CRT or define-the-house-rules kind of thing, like the 11D Honkai stuff.

 

[Mbpoops]

anything involving 11D extradimensional range is irrelevant for this thread since all it is is a interaction barrier bypass, its not like she can cover an infinite amount of space. If that was the case she'd just have H1-C range lol

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

her range is still hundreds of meters (idk if the page is specific) extradimensional range just lets you interact with an extradimensional being, like aeons or the anti spiral etcetc it doesnt increase the distance you cover but you can interact with higher dimensional spaces.

If Path energy itself an extradimensional substance that characters weaponize directly and it retains every other property of imaginary energy (it does) then I see no reason to say it doesn't retain that part of those properties.

He probably won't do that, nothing about Kafka's capabilities would make him want to fly away. Read the analysis I posted for what Kefka does in character

Yes I agree.

 

[Mbpoops]

If Path energy itself an extradimensional substance that characters weaponize directly and it retains every other property of imaginary energy (it does) then I see no reason to say it doesn't retain that part of those properties.

What does this have to do with range

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

What does this have to do with range

...

Nevermind

 

[Mbpoops]

Extradimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach outside the conventional space-time of a single universe in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse, or by being able to reach into multiple timelines simultaneously without covering a universal distance.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Extradimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach outside the conventional space-time of a single universe in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse, or by being able to reach into multiple timelines simultaneously without covering a universal distance.

huh okay

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheKingStrategist13 Because he already knows what Leo is capable of, which doesn't include magical threads that can mind control you to do whatever the user desires, so he can get away with it on top of the fact Leo was exhausted fighting a Kefka clone.

@Hypertornado099 Freezing via status ailments which isn't the same as imagining she gets frozen into a block of ice that can shatter into a million pieces. Two completely different applications here. Also him knowing about the mind control spell she has would incline Kefka to keep his distance. He's not an idiot and wouldn't underestimate his opponents, otherwise he'd have done so against Leo of all people.

@Follow_Doctor_Freeman the cross continental beams isn't really what I'm referring to, I'm referring to any of his normal magic spells since even during Dissidia when he fought Tidus and Vaan and he's flying from a great distance to spam magic against them while he's in his normal state. Reality warping resistances doesn't help resist Subjective Reality given their applications can be completely different from one another. Same reason why we treat Madness and Mind resistances as separate things.

Also hey Freeman, been a while.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Would it really be consistent to say he'd go for "cheese" considering arrogance is one of his weaknesses as per his profile? Even if he's aware of her mind control, it's not unlikely that he could still be underestimating her thinking she'd be physically weak and easy enough to beat. From what I am seeing, he still went into melee combat against a master swordsman instead of taking advantage of his range. Even if he did tire him out. His profile straight up says he doesn't take his opponents seriously if he isn't in a dire situation.

 

[DaReaperMan]

There's a major difference between "Won't take opponent seriously" and "Dedicated magic caster won't just cast spells first thing". In Dissidia, despite taking literally none of the heroes seriously, in fights he's still spamming magic. And that's the same Kefka with the same in-character, he's just stronger lmfao

In-verse, Kefka's magic is strong, so he holds it back for laughs, but still casts. Cross-verse, if you're not a Warhammer Fantasy character, a tabletop character, or a chinaman, good luck. Hence why I gave Kafka the prior knowledge to legit use her strings instead of going for melee or gun, because anything but that can easily result in the haxlord doing haxlord things with nothing Kafka could consistently do in-character.

 

[Theglassman12]

You seems to ignore that last part you wrote “if he isn’t in a dire situation”. Kefka knowing about her mind control spell means he’s in a dire situation and is fully aware of it. He’s not going to take things lightly so the fact you’re glossing that over means you’re not reading the profile or what we’ve been arguing.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I have been reading both his profile and your comments. I just don't think a character who is on his level and is known for messing around won't think that he can deal with a single ability coming from a funny dressed girl with a sword. He has a habit of doing that. It's more than likely for him to overestimate his abilities and underestimate Kafka due to the sheer difference between them. Being a sad ist also means he isn't likely to go for insta-kill spells either. Rather he'd try toying with her.

Anyway that's been the last comment from me. This isn't getting anywhere and we're at the 3rd page repeating things we said at the first 5 comments.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ah yes, the sad-ist who went for the kill against Leo after having his shadow clone exhaust him because he knew he was a threat to him. Same situation here where he’s fully aware of what Kafka is capable of and would make sure to just go for the kill against her and fly away from her while spamming magic.

 

[Hypertornado099]

There's a major difference between "Won't take opponent seriously" and "Dedicated magic caster won't just cast spells first thing". In Dissidia, despite taking literally none of the heroes seriously, in fights he's still spamming magic. And that's the same Kefka with the same in-character, he's just stronger lmfao

In-verse, Kefka's magic is strong, so he holds it back for laughs, but still casts. Cross-verse, if you're not a Warhammer Fantasy character, a tabletop character, or a chinaman, good luck. Hence why I gave Kafka the prior knowledge to legit use her strings instead of going for melee or gun, because anything but that can easily result in the haxlord doing haxlord things with nothing Kafka could consistently do in-character.

And in most cases, he doesn't use the instakil abilities.

Against Firion, he uses hyperdrive, which sends a wave of energy towards his foe
He tends to start with Trine. He does this to Vaan here and he doesn't spam multiple magic spells. Against Jack, he uses a light spell. When angered, he fires a non elemental blast at Exdeath. Here's another instance

 

[Hypertornado099]

@TheKingStrategist13 Because he already knows what Leo is capable of, which doesn't include magical threads that can mind control you to do whatever the user desires, so he can get away with it on top of the fact Leo was exhausted fighting a Kefka clone.

@Hypertornado099 Freezing via status ailments which isn't the same as imagining she gets frozen into a block of ice that can shatter into a million pieces. Two completely different applications here. Also him knowing about the mind control spell she has would incline Kefka to keep his distance. He's not an idiot and wouldn't underestimate his opponents, otherwise he'd have done so against Leo of all people.

@Follow_Doctor_Freeman the cross continental beams isn't really what I'm referring to, I'm referring to any of his normal magic spells since even during Dissidia when he fought Tidus and Vaan and he's flying from a great distance to spam magic against them while he's in his normal state. Reality warping resistances doesn't help resist Subjective Reality given their applications can be completely different from one another. Same reason why we treat Madness and Mind resistances as separate things.

Also hey Freeman, been a while.

The scan says this:

Blizzard was conceived by those weak against heat as a means of countering Fire. Working on the opposite principles of Fire, Blizzard slows the velocity of its targets' internal electrons, lowering their body temperatures and causing them to freeze. Frozen targets can even be shattered to meet their end.
Naturally, Blizzard should be effective against those who live in a tropical environment or those who draw energy from heat

Regular freezing makes things more brittle and prone to shattering. Kefka's ice spell hasn't shown the ability to shatter someone with 3-C durability into pieces. He could maybe do that to someone with no ice resistance and low durability but not to Kafka

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

@TheKingStrategist13 Because he already knows what Leo is capable of, which doesn't include magical threads that can mind control you to do whatever the user desires, so he can get away with it on top of the fact Leo was exhausted fighting a Kefka clone.

If we want to be technical, his profile does still state that the exception to him not taking a foe seriously is based off if he's angry, and not if he objectively is aware that they can pose a threat. If you can show a scan of him explicitly going for a near assured win con against someone he is threatened by, that would be one thing. At the same time, I know this argument may seem a little ridiculous.

Even still, as pointed out by others- Kefka seems to consistently not immediately go for instant win conditions against his foes. Unless Kefka immediately goes for something like his instant death- Which again, seems unlikely- Kafka still has a solid window of time to hit her Mind Manip. If he decides to start flying, it's unlikely she'll just let him get out of range, she'll likely use her mind manip the moment it seems like he's trying to get away. If he takes the time to summon this Shadow, even if it doesn't take much time at all, she can still use her AOE Mind Manip. Keep in mind the fight starts at 10 meters away, and her range is at least tens of meters with her voice, and hundreds with her energy threads. Since speed is equalized, she should also be capable of acting before he can manage to get far enough away.
And considering that this Leo character is also considered a threat to him, according to you, this means he considers his Shadow as a valid strategy against those who could threaten him.

His real only wincon is to go for something absurd as his first attack, something that would guarantee him the win, which I just don't see evidence of this being something he does in character, especially when the profile itself feels the need to point out that he almost never gets serious, and other people in this thread point out several other fights where he starts with such mundane things as... Light spells... Non Elemental Blasts... Etc.
There's just so much evidence saying that he's the type to mess around, even when he probably shouldn't. Even if you personally think he's likely to go all out, I don't think it's that ridiculous of a stance to think that he'll probably not do what he actually needs to before she wins?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Kefka FRA, the arguments from Glass and the others seems way more convincing if you ask me compared to what @Nighting4l33yes has debated here, @TheKingStrategist13 is debatable tho, and might be the factor if I ever going to switch side if Kafka arguments are making sense soon