The speed is equalized
Well, then things can be more even here. As I mentioned, SBA is going to make them start at a distance, and when they finally meet, it will surely be a shootout. Seeing that both are skilled enough, they would probably close the distance until eventually Matrix and Wick would fight hand to hand if they don't manage to get a good shot at each other. How skilled is Matrix in hand-to-hand combat?
Everything is said on his profile:
For now, I'm going to stay incon
Counted
Counted
I would like to argue too:
Both have weapons with hundreds of meters of range, so the starting distance between the two will be similar (as explained in the SBA page)
No one has said otherwise, but in this area and in this place (Central Park), Matrix has the advantage. John Wick's stealth will be useless because Matrix will be able to hear and smell him while John Wick has nothing to counter Matrix's stealth combined with his camouflage that allows him to blend into the Central Park forest.
I don't know about John Wick, but with the standard equipment John Matrix will start with the Rocket Launcher and the Valmet M78.
And is this guy as strong as Matrix in LS?
Think specifying which weapons they start in hand would make this more understandable, cuz their starting weapon will be depending on each situation of their movies so I think it would be cool to establish this rn
Don't think Wick will be entering a forest, so to try and get a shot against his opponent hiding, Matrix will need either to get out of where his camouflage helps him or for his senses to have the same range as his assault rifle (which for the smelling is not specified and I really don't think is viable and for the hearing, Wick's has quality enough to bypass it).
I call out again the argument that we should specify which guns they start having at hand
I'd put him in class 1, too, maybe.
As for Matrix with standard equipment it starts with the rocket launcher and the assault rifle.
The fight starts in Central Park, Wick and Matrix will already be inside, and John Wick isn't going to shoot randomly and risk running out of ammo.
For Matrix everything mentioned in his profile is on him, for Wick idk yet.
Yeah so that's not a valid argument, especially since only Peak Human is mentioned for John Wick on his page.
I was talking about an opponent of him that doesn't have a profile. An estimation to call out that a h2h combat with a guy whose LS is higher than his is an experience Wick has.
From both of those, I understand that he starts having both at hand. With that said, I assume it's fair that Wick will have his Coharie Arms CA415, in hand, to match the range and, as much as possible, the firepower (since I didn't know Matrix had a Rocket Launcher, I now say it like this) and the rest too but not in hand.
The speed is equalized so it is irrelevant.
Matrix is not going to use his stealth to stay hidden in one place, he is going to use it to approach Wick discreetly and kill him quickly without him realizing it, whether with bladed weapons or guns. The tactic of incendiary grenades will be of little use because Central Park is 4 kilometers long and Wick does not have an unlimited number of them.
Not the immediate answer, but right after seeing how dangerous Wick is with guns
Afaik when different types of speed have different values, they keep being different (I.e. travel speed is Superhuman but reaction is different than that, so it keeps being different, with the relative ratio) not all is equalized in one speed
Wick is also hiding and moving. Not a single thing I said needs Matrix to hide in one place to apply. As Wick is not inside the forest nor close to it, Matrix will have a hard time doing it.
Wick doesn't need to burn the entire central park, if he burn the forest close to him, Matrix's strategy falls flat. The smoke and sounds of the forest burning is likely to heavily disturb his Enhanced Senses, he himself has to keep moving and in Stealth, against another very capable marksman also very good stealthwise (I believe also more experienced, as all of Matrix's profile is based off of one movie+previous unknown experience while Wick has 4 movies+previous unknown experience) and if he plans to shoot while hidden, surpass all those conditions to get a shot against his opponent.
Wick has less firepower in hand at the start (rocket launcher+ assault rifle vs. Assault rifle), so if this is true, he will open fire at Wick...and die, since— as i pointed out earlier— Wick is faster combatwise than Matrix is reaction and travelwise.
yes it is:
Wick and Matrix both START in Central Park and can go out whenever they want (it's written in the SBA page), and whether it's in Central Park or in the city, if Wick wants to play ninja against Matrix, he will lose.
Matrix can just hide somewhere else in Central Park and New York
Matrix can just go somewhere else, he's not stupid enough to stay next to the flames and smoke. Same goes for Wick.
John Wick's experience is useless against a guy who can hear and smell him and has better stealth feats.
Matrix also won't use both the rocket launcher and the assault rifle simultaneously (because it's impossible). Alos, speed equalized, and if Wick sees a guy aiming at him with a rocket launcher from several meters away, he will hide (something that Matrix will also do then).
Also, what are you talking about?
see this "By the same multiplier"?
as i concluded earlier,
Wick would only need to get away from the flames if they get all the way up to him, which then also means he will get away from the woods
The rule:
When speed is equalized in a versus thread, it usually refers to combat/reaction speed, otherwise there would be no debate. This is literally why Pyro advised me to specify that speed should be equalized in all three VS with Matrix. Wick and Matrix have the same combat speed here (same for Matrix and Bellic).
You completely forget that Matrix could move away completely instead of going around the flames, and even go out of Central Park. To win Wick will be forced to look for Matrix outside of Central Park so that he is within his reach and therefore Matrix can approach him without the flames disturbing him.Wick would only need to get away from the flames if they get all the way up to him, which then also means he will get away from the woods
if Wick walks away from the flames he got out of the range of Matrix's enhanced senses
for Matrix to get closer to Wick, he'd have to make a huge curve or to be inside of the burned up part like this example (of a part inside Central Park that any part of it that could apply SBA for this battle would look like):
(grey is Matrix, dark-red is Matrix's trajectory, Black is Wick.)
Matrix would need to go to the end of the dark-red lines as any other place would have his enhanced sense nulled by the flames/burned parts and its smoke
and in the end of the dark-red lines he's inside...Wick's range and line of sight, meaning he's instantly shot again whenever he gets there.
Wrong
You got it wrong, In the scenario I went through, Wick goes out of Central Park too, also waiting for him to get in his sight...
He walks even more forward outside Central Park, so when Matrix goes looking for him in the general direction he went to, he will be entering his sight eventually
Not feasible, Wick is hiding cuz he's not dumb
Maybe it's my fault for not clarifying enough, but yeah, he's hiding.
He doesn't want to burn the Park, just not let him stay in the same place nor in total control of the place.
He doesn't
But what about the other types of speeds? Am I also wrong about that?
No, usually they're talking about combat speed, that's the whole point of it. Equalizing travel speed is much less useful than equalizing combat speed in a, well, combat.
But why would Wick do this? Why would this scenario be more likely to happen than others, like Wick deciding to go meet Matrix to kill him in melee or stealth? And why are you only considering the scenario where Matrix decides to go around the flames to kill Wick? He could do the opposite too.
But if Matrix knows he's been spotted (if that ever happens), he'll just shoot him with his rocket launcher and/or run and hide.
Yeah so both characters will be hidden, and Matrix will be better hidden than Wick thanks to his camouflage (if they are still in Central Park), and both will move away from the flames so as not to end up asphyxiated or burned so we go back to the beginning.
So Matrix will still be able to track and surprise him via enhanced senses and stealth.
The two will immediately start shooting at each other yes, but Wick will not be able to kill Matrix quickly and easily in a gunfight. Matrix has killed almost a hundred soldiers by himself without being hit by a bullet once, and even when he was the case against Bennett he completely ignored the wound (in addition to another one) and killed him.
Their reaction speeds are still in different rates tho
You the one who called out that the fire would spread up to his position, I just went along with it
Not in character, he just goes h2h when needed, usually he's more up to ranged combat
He won't
They aren't, so camouflage is actually surrendering his position, maybe
No he won't
Wick is a way better marksman than Matrix and for sure all of those soldiers
We'd need to compare this Bennett to Wick, and I can bet he's better both in Marksmanship and in every sense necessary in this discussion.
I repeat what I called out for in the answer above.
No, they are equal here
I'm not the one who said John Wick was going to burn down parts of Central Park to stop the Matrix from hiding.
Not if Wick doesn't see him
You literally said "Wick is not dumb" and that he would hide
The only scenario I brought is Matrix hiding after the gunshots, you said that Wick will use fire to prevent Matrix from hiding in certain parts of Central Park. So if everything is not burned, Matrix will still be able to use his enhanced senses and stealth to track Wick, even outside of Central Park.
There is no evidence of this. Matrix gunned down an island with almost a hundred soldiers on his own without getting hit and without helmets and bulletproof vests. It's easily comparable to Wick, if not superior.
Even Bennet can give Wick a run for his money.
Individually yes of course, but Matrix faced dozens and dozens of soldiers simultaneously, it's almost just as dangerous.
Logically, Matrix and Wick will both start with a rifle assault and shoot each other on sight. If Matrix doesn't get hit in the brain or heart he will be able to continue fighting without too much trouble, same for Wick (I suppose). If neither of them manages to kill or incapacitate the other in ranged combat they will either go into stealth or H2H combat.
You're the one who implied Matrix would prefer to stay hiding until the fire reaches Wick's position, though
Yet another reason to not go to the direction of the guy who just disappeared in the woods and had a Rocket Launcher in the hand to try and pull off an h2h
In this part I'm developing the fire scenario, I was calling out that they would be outside of Central Park by this point. That's where I told you they weren't (Central park) and yes, Wick is hiding, still, after he's outta there
Actually you brought up the fire spreading up until Wick's position too
I highly doubt he can recognize "opponent scent" amongst the smell of smoke surrounding him. Even up to a point where a considerable part of the forest behind him (after they left Central Park, I mean) got burned and it's still burning
We can easily say he faces more than 100 soldiers in each movie, with every movie having them being more and more skilled, getting some injuries off of them
I advance that I believe the point above answers that too
Then I'm also very confident that Wick can end him too
I once again point out that the Marksmanship of Wick is if not giving an edge, giving him a win, here, on this shootout (now a thought just crossed my mind: if Matrix start with both the Launcher and the Rifle at hand, Wick is definitely winning right in the start as either Matrix loses accuracy due to having only one arm to properly handle the rifle, or he loses time throwing it on the ground/putting it on his back or smth, in both cases, Wick is not letting this pass by)
