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I feel like the current layering system is kind of bloated and full of layer distinctions that shouldn't be there. Stuff like fodder youkai bypassing humans' natural resistances, Gyuki's illusions affecting Rikuo while Kyouka Suigetsu can dispel these illusions, and Tamazuki growing strong enough to induce visceral fear into Yura when previously he didn't, all that stuff makes sense.
But some of the other justifications just seem like "character x is stronger than character y, so x is automatically in a higher layer". My main gripes with the current system are with start-of-series Rikuo being an entire layer above baseline youkai for no real reason, and most of the middle portion of the list. Rikuo learning the 2nd release of "cutting Fear" (Hyoui) just reaffirms the scaling of it being above the 1st release (Hatsu), it doesn't amp Rikuo's Hatsu itself. Kidoumaru breaking Rikuo's Meikyou Shisui doesn't mean much, since anyone relative to Rikuo's own strength could always do that (breaking Kyouka Suigetsu is what's considered the impressive feat). Gyuki being able to fight Kyoto Arc Rikuo for days on end also doesn't mean he's above Kyouka Suigetsu, it just means he needs enough power to make up for the hax disadvantage, as we see later that Rikuo can successfully use Kyouka Suigetsu on much stronger opponents and still lose.
Layers 8 through 10 I have mixed feelings on, they still don’t follow as clear-cut of a standard as I’d like, but I can understand the intuitive logic of why oneshotting someone would put your Fear on a different level where they basically can’t affect you. I’d really rather not have power be the sole justification for layer differences though, as it leaves too much room for arbitrary interpretation of which power gaps constitute a layer increase and ones which don’t. For example, Rikuo can oneshot revived demon Sanmoto who scales massively above other Matoi-level characters like Offense Mode Rikuo and Matoi Rihan, and Hiruko’s ultimate attack can basically oneshot 3-Armed Tsuchigumo, so should those be layer differences too? I dunno.
It just seems like there should be some stricter definition of what constitutes a layer transcendence with regards to hax getting negated by a character or bypassing their perception, rather than just one character being stronger than another by a decent margin. So, I’m proposing a new system based around those principles.
1. As explained in the current page, baseline youkai are able to bypass the perception of normal humans and “exist beyond their imagination”, with start-of-series Rikuo scaling to and above these creatures, but not by such a degree he should be an entire tier above them.
2. Casual Gyuki was able to cast illusions on Rikuo with his Fear, an ability Rikuo that overwhelmed Rikuo’s perception and senses until he dispelled it with Meikyou Shisui. Meikyou Shisui also prevents Rikuo from being perceived by fodder youkai, so it’s consistent for the ability to be at this level. Suppressed Gyuki and Shikoku Arc Tamazuki were then both able to see through Meikyou Shisui to perceive and fight Rikuo, meaning they should be here as well.
3. Tamazuki gains an amp to the point where he viscerally overwhelms Yura with his Fear to the point where she starts panicking that “winning against him is impossible”, despite not producing this reaction in her before, so it’s fair to say he moved up a layer.
4. Kyouka Suigetsu is in turn able to bypass this Tamazuki’s resistances, evade his perception, and defeat him. A more trained version of Kyouka Suigetsu is then able to transcend the perception of base Kidoumaru, but there’s no indication that it would’ve increased by a layer during Rikuo’s training. An extremely casual Tsuchigumo is in turn able to get past Kyouka Suigetsu and see Rikuo’s true form.
5. At the end of the first Tsuchigumo fight, Rikuo briefly taps into a higher level of Kyouka Suigetsu that successfully eludes Tsuchigumo’s senses and allows him to dodge an attack, though upon getting slightly more serious, Tsuchigumo can again perceive Rikuo’s true form and proceeds to body him anyway.
6. By the second Tsuchigumo fight, Rikuo can now affect Tsuchigumo with Kyouka Suigetsu, although the power gap is too big for it to do much good. We don't know if this was ultra-casual or slightly-serious Tsuchigumo, however it should scale to Matoi-level characters anyway since later on, base Rikuo was able to finesse Hagoromo-Gitsune with Kyouka Suigetsu. Although 4-Armed Tsuchigumo is implied to be stronger than 9th Incarnation Hagoromo-Gitsune (when both are at max power), they’re still both Matoi-level opponents and should likely be in somewhat the same ballpark of power and perception.
From this point on, Kyouka Suigetsu seems to bypass the perception of pretty much everyone, from what I recall even top tiers like Hiruko and Seimei never replicate the feat of outright negating Kyouka Suigetsu, meaning this is where the layering stops with EOS Kyouka Suigetsu 6 layers deep.
@Deceived3596
But some of the other justifications just seem like "character x is stronger than character y, so x is automatically in a higher layer". My main gripes with the current system are with start-of-series Rikuo being an entire layer above baseline youkai for no real reason, and most of the middle portion of the list. Rikuo learning the 2nd release of "cutting Fear" (Hyoui) just reaffirms the scaling of it being above the 1st release (Hatsu), it doesn't amp Rikuo's Hatsu itself. Kidoumaru breaking Rikuo's Meikyou Shisui doesn't mean much, since anyone relative to Rikuo's own strength could always do that (breaking Kyouka Suigetsu is what's considered the impressive feat). Gyuki being able to fight Kyoto Arc Rikuo for days on end also doesn't mean he's above Kyouka Suigetsu, it just means he needs enough power to make up for the hax disadvantage, as we see later that Rikuo can successfully use Kyouka Suigetsu on much stronger opponents and still lose.
Layers 8 through 10 I have mixed feelings on, they still don’t follow as clear-cut of a standard as I’d like, but I can understand the intuitive logic of why oneshotting someone would put your Fear on a different level where they basically can’t affect you. I’d really rather not have power be the sole justification for layer differences though, as it leaves too much room for arbitrary interpretation of which power gaps constitute a layer increase and ones which don’t. For example, Rikuo can oneshot revived demon Sanmoto who scales massively above other Matoi-level characters like Offense Mode Rikuo and Matoi Rihan, and Hiruko’s ultimate attack can basically oneshot 3-Armed Tsuchigumo, so should those be layer differences too? I dunno.
It just seems like there should be some stricter definition of what constitutes a layer transcendence with regards to hax getting negated by a character or bypassing their perception, rather than just one character being stronger than another by a decent margin. So, I’m proposing a new system based around those principles.
1. As explained in the current page, baseline youkai are able to bypass the perception of normal humans and “exist beyond their imagination”, with start-of-series Rikuo scaling to and above these creatures, but not by such a degree he should be an entire tier above them.
2. Casual Gyuki was able to cast illusions on Rikuo with his Fear, an ability Rikuo that overwhelmed Rikuo’s perception and senses until he dispelled it with Meikyou Shisui. Meikyou Shisui also prevents Rikuo from being perceived by fodder youkai, so it’s consistent for the ability to be at this level. Suppressed Gyuki and Shikoku Arc Tamazuki were then both able to see through Meikyou Shisui to perceive and fight Rikuo, meaning they should be here as well.
3. Tamazuki gains an amp to the point where he viscerally overwhelms Yura with his Fear to the point where she starts panicking that “winning against him is impossible”, despite not producing this reaction in her before, so it’s fair to say he moved up a layer.
4. Kyouka Suigetsu is in turn able to bypass this Tamazuki’s resistances, evade his perception, and defeat him. A more trained version of Kyouka Suigetsu is then able to transcend the perception of base Kidoumaru, but there’s no indication that it would’ve increased by a layer during Rikuo’s training. An extremely casual Tsuchigumo is in turn able to get past Kyouka Suigetsu and see Rikuo’s true form.
5. At the end of the first Tsuchigumo fight, Rikuo briefly taps into a higher level of Kyouka Suigetsu that successfully eludes Tsuchigumo’s senses and allows him to dodge an attack, though upon getting slightly more serious, Tsuchigumo can again perceive Rikuo’s true form and proceeds to body him anyway.
6. By the second Tsuchigumo fight, Rikuo can now affect Tsuchigumo with Kyouka Suigetsu, although the power gap is too big for it to do much good. We don't know if this was ultra-casual or slightly-serious Tsuchigumo, however it should scale to Matoi-level characters anyway since later on, base Rikuo was able to finesse Hagoromo-Gitsune with Kyouka Suigetsu. Although 4-Armed Tsuchigumo is implied to be stronger than 9th Incarnation Hagoromo-Gitsune (when both are at max power), they’re still both Matoi-level opponents and should likely be in somewhat the same ballpark of power and perception.
From this point on, Kyouka Suigetsu seems to bypass the perception of pretty much everyone, from what I recall even top tiers like Hiruko and Seimei never replicate the feat of outright negating Kyouka Suigetsu, meaning this is where the layering stops with EOS Kyouka Suigetsu 6 layers deep.
@Deceived3596
