Isn't Might Gai distorting space a relativistic speed feat?

[Heatforce]

Of course I'm in reference to his fight with Madara when he went 8 gates in chapter 672. He clearly warps the space around him due to his high speed movement.

 

[Heatforce]

Anyone?

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

The answer is no.

There are many factors contributes to that, including the Chakra/energy he had built up.

It's a Sub Rel one of a kind attack at most, no one dodged it even slightly, so no one can be upgraded apart from Gai himself.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

It's not sub relativistic it's relativistic speed he bent space due to sheer speed .

 

[Illuminati478]

i am sure ive explained it to you before, but in case you've forgotten:

1) the way the distortion of space happaned in Gai's case doesn't fit the way the theory of relativity says space should bend due to sheer speed, at least not the way it was portrayed in the manga, and as such it cannot be a credible indacative of it.

2) even if point 1 wasn't true, distortion of space isn't an effect only applicable to relativistic speed, but to any speed, and the effect would be noticeable to the traveler even at single to double digit mach's, which would mean a calculation would need to be done about it, but as the phenomena portrayed is radically different to the phenomana that the theory of relativity have formula's for, we can't do that either, so its certainly no indicator of any specific speed rate or value, if att all.

3) the effects of distortions of space are visible to the one traversing space and only to him, not any observer would notice a change in space at all, its relative change to the object in movement, not to the observer of the movment, as such the idea that Madara would notice the distortion in space 'created' by Gai's speed (as the former canonically did) not only kicks the entire idea out the window, but is ridicules, laughable and deserve any mockery it gets.

now, are you going to let this be, or do i need to copy this comment to a word document? because its frickin' damn tiring ot write this again and again and again...

 

[Heatforce]

@quincy emperor, So a lot of characters power up, it shouldn't count against gai moving that fast. Night gai was gai's most powerful attack, one which Madara wasn't willing to dodge because he wanted to face the challenge (he did just aknowledge gai as the strongest taijutsu user he ever faced). If Madara really wanted to dodge the attack he could have substituted, flew or used genjutsu to stop gai. Madara's eye could even track the attack and see space bending.

@chillvibezz,

That's even better. This should be the event that brings the narutoverse (top tier - god tier) to around LS. That should also improve light fang's standing since there are some who consider it an outlier. There is no reason to deny this feat if space really bends at relativistic speeds.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

The fact that space around madaras staff was bent and he mentions space being bent and his speed is clear evidence of his speed bending the space within his vincinity .

 

[Krysis0]

Guy bending space had visibile effects on the environment (chakra could've affected it too)

But no one else in naruto has shown this effect when they move, also didn't naruto/sasuke blitz madara who was capable to reacting to guy?

 

[Heatforce]

i am sure ive explained it to you before, but in case you've forgotten:
1) the way the distortion of space happaned in Gai's case doesn't fit the way the theory of relativity says space should bend due to sheer speed, at least not the way it was portrayed in the manga, and as such it cannot be a credible indacative of it.

2) even if point 1 wasn't true, distortion of space isn't an effect only applicable to relativistic speed, but to any speed, and the effect would be noticeable to the traveler even at single to double digit mach's, which would mean a calculation would need to be done about it, but as the phenomena portrayed is radically different to the phenomana that the theory of relativity have formula's for, we can't do that either, so its certainly no indicator of any specific speed rate or value, if att all.

3) the effects of distortions of space are visible to the one traversing space and only to him, not any observer would notice a change in space at all, its relative change to the object in movement, not to the observer of the movment, as such the idea that Madara would notice the distortion in space 'created' by Gai's speed (as the former canonically did) not only kicks the entire idea out the window, but is ridicules, laughable and deserve any mockery it gets.

now, are you going to let this be, or do i need to copy this comment to a word document? because its frickin' damn tiring ot write this again and again and again...

I'm not sure I was the person, If I was then I forgot. But even so some counters:

1. Why not? We've accepted feats based on worse pseudoscience as long as a good statment accompanies it. In this case the statement came from madara and the panel shows space bending.

2. I have nothing to counter this

3. Madara has the rinnegan and his rinnegan (since he rezzed from edo status) carries over the traits of his Sharingan. The shraringan can precog opponents but it doesn't mean the user can actually dodge them. The fight between naruto and sasuke at the end of part 1 confirms my counter. Sasuke can see naruto move with his sharingan but is unable to block becuase he was not physicaly fast enough to do so. That explans how madara can see the attack.

Even then I still think Madara would have dodged or parried gai if he wasn't so damn turned on by gai's taijutsu lol.

 

[Heatforce]

Guy bending space had visibile effects on the environment (chakra could've affected it too)
But no one else in naruto has shown this effect when they move, also didn't naruto/sasuke blitz madara who was capable to reacting to guy?

What does that tell you about Naruto and Sasuke?

 

[Krysis0]

Guy bending space had visibile effects on the environment (chakra could've affected it too)
But no one else in naruto has shown this effect when they move, also didn't naruto/sasuke blitz madara who was capable to reacting to guy?

What does that tell you about Naruto and Sasuke?

Using the bending space logic they must've been slower than gai

 

[Heatforce]

Guy bending space had visibile effects on the environment (chakra could've affected it too)
But no one else in naruto has shown this effect when they move, also didn't naruto/sasuke blitz madara who was capable to reacting to guy?

What does that tell you about Naruto and Sasuke?

Using the bending space logic they must've been slower than gai

Well they are slower (EoS anyway) but think about it:

1. It was largely implied that Madara did not want to dodge or parry Gai's attacks even though logically he could have. This is a proven character trait/ flaw with Madara as he gets so turned on by fighting strong opponents he throws reason out the window.

2. Naruto was only able to blitz Madara one time by himself and that was when Madara had just recovered from his fight with gai. Anyway, afterwards Madara absorbed the shinju and became more powerful.

3. The other blitz attempts occured because of sasuke's eye ability which is essentially instant TP.

 

[Krysis0]

How was it implied? He himself says in his fight that he must avoid being hit by guy's normal punches, why would he be dumb enough to let guy's strongest attack hit him? Is his intelligence below kaguya level?

 

[Illuminati478]

" Why not? We've accepted feats based on worse pseudoscience as long as a good statment accompanies it. In this case the statement came from madara and the panel shows space bending."

no actually we havn't, not as worse as this one, in this one your basically trying to use the theory of relativty, when the feat itself doesn't even begin to follow the rules of the phenomenon it is trying to replicate, its worse then pseodoscience, its none-science.

"Madara has the rinnegan and his rinnegan (since he rezzed from edo status) carries over the traits of his Sharingan. The shraringan can precog opponents but it doesn't mean the user can actually dodge them. The fight between naruto and sasuke at the end of part 1 confirms my counter. Sasuke can see naruto move with his sharingan but is unable to block becuase he was not physicaly fast enough to do so. That explans how madara can see the attack."

i am not saying that he can't see the attack, but the fact that he can't, according to the theory of relativity, see the 'distortions' themselves (i put the circumflexes much of this contridcts theory of relativity), see the difference?.

 

[Heatforce]

Because before Madara was just interested in fighting someone with the 8 gates. He may have been caught off guard seeing as though gai was his first opponent since becoming so6p madara. But when gai was about to use night gai that's when Madara said no one has exceeded gai's level of taijutsu and prepared to take on gai's attack.

 

[Krysis0]

If he wanted to take on guy's attack why even try to brace for it?

He was getting scared by guy's normal punches, the reason he took the kick was due to him being unable to dodge it.

 

[Heatforce]

" Why not? We've accepted feats based on worse pseudoscience as long as a good statment accompanies it. In this case the statement came from madara and the panel shows space bending."
no actually we havn't, not as worse as this one, in this one your basically trying to use the theory of relativty, when the feat itself doesn't even begin to follow the rules of the phenomenon it is trying to replicate, its worse then pseodoscience, its none-science.

"Madara has the rinnegan and his rinnegan (since he rezzed from edo status) carries over the traits of his Sharingan. The shraringan can precog opponents but it doesn't mean the user can actually dodge them. The fight between naruto and sasuke at the end of part 1 confirms my counter. Sasuke can see naruto move with his sharingan but is unable to block becuase he was not physicaly fast enough to do so. That explans how madara can see the attack."

i am not saying that he can't see the attack, but the fact that he can't, according to the theory of relativity, see the 'distortions' themselves (i put the circumflexes much of this contridcts theory of relativity), see the difference?.

How is this any worse than the DBS shockwaves that were going to destroy the universe? That upgrade hurt my head but I was told to leave it alone because of old kai's statements and because we see some celestial bodies be destroyed. Those shockwaves were originally why goku got bumped up to galaxy and I beleive why Beerus was bumped up to 3A. And I'm not sure why it breaks the theory of relativity since Madara says "He's fast" then as the attack is about to hit, space bends. Why does it matter if he sees the distortions? He has godly dojutsu. That by itself covers why he can see the distortions.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

You can't measurre one's speed using pseudoscience space bending ,it's just illogical.If you want to upgrade naruto's (the verse) speed then do it using calcs ,and if you can't do or find the calcs then just drop it.It is really exhausting to read this kind of threads.

 

[Heatforce]

If he wanted to take on guy's attack why even try to brace for it?
He was getting scared by guy's normal punches, the reason he took the kick was due to him being unable to dodge it.

Yeah madara was getting scarred...-_-

He could have genjutsued gai, he could have used a TSB to block night gai since Kakashi wouldn't have been prepared to use kamui, flew away, etc.

If he can parry he can dodge.

 

[Heatforce]

You can't measurre one's speed using pseudoscience space bending ,it's just illogical.If you want to upgrade naruto's (the verse) speed then do it using calcs ,and if you can't do or find the calcs then just drop it.It is really exhausting to read this kind of threads.

That's my point though we have used pseudoscience before to upgrade characters like goku and beerus. I'm not sure why Naruto, or any story for that matter, should be any different as long as the panels and text confirm the feat.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

There is literaly nothing that confirms this kind of speed.

 

[Heatforce]

There is literaly nothing that confirms this kind of speed.

Doesn't the databook? But I assumed madara would be good enough given his dojutsu and power level.

 

[Illuminati478]

a) i wasn't a part of that upgrade discussion sadly, and i would have opposed it, however that and this are different topics, independent of each other.

b) "And I'm not sure why it breaks the theory of relativity since Madara says "He's fast" then as the attack is about to hit, space bends. Why does it matter if he sees the distortions? He has godly dojutsu. That by itself covers why he can see the distortions."

let me explain this in laymans terms. it is because space and time are linked. it was found that as your movement speed gets closer (and by closer i mean any version of closer, including if you start running right now) to the speed of light, time dilates and become's shorter for you compaired to an outside observer's, but as the speed you move in doesn't change while time does, it also means that space also dilate, and contracts, but as you are the object that moves, only you can see the contraction of space, and thats because only the time you precieve changes, while time that the outside obserevers precieve does not.

which in short means that Madara can have all the eye abilities in all of fiction, he still wouldn't be able to precieve the spacial contraction, because the time he precieved hasn't changed.

 

[Krysis0]

What? We assume madara has a brain and would attempt to dodge it, but he didn't due to his inability. Also the naruto databooks are filled with hyperboles.

 

[Heatforce]

a) i wasn't a part of that upgrade discussion sadly, and i would have opposed it, however that and this are different topics, independent of each other.
b) "And I'm not sure why it breaks the theory of relativity since Madara says "He's fast" then as the attack is about to hit, space bends. Why does it matter if he sees the distortions? He has godly dojutsu. That by itself covers why he can see the distortions."

let me explain this in laymans terms. it is because space and time are linked. it was found that as your movement speed gets closer (and by closer i mean any version of closer, including if you start running right now) to the speed of light, time dilates and become's shorter for you compaired to an outside observer's, but as the speed you move in doesn't change while time does, it also means that space also dilate, and contracts, but as you are the object that moves, only you can see the contraction of space, and thats because only the time you precieve changes, while time that the outside obserevers precieve does not.

which in short means that Madara can have all the eye abilities in all of fiction, he still wouldn't be able to precieve the spacial contraction, because the time he precieved hasn't changed.

a) Well damn lol. I'm just confused because I'm hearing different things from the community. I originally thought we base feats on science here. Then I was told that we can't hold the physics of fiction to the same standard and as long as we have statements and panels, images or video. Now I'm being told we need to utilize physics to confirm the feats as well. I don't want to piss people off but I can't tell if I'm arguing based on a false premise or not.

b) Couldn't Madara have percieved it as Gai got closer to him or when he himself was enveloped in the spacial distorition? That's how madara was able to tell space was distorted, because his staff bent when gai got right up to him. If not, I'll drop it since I don't know if I'm right or wrong to even debate this anymore.

 

[Heatforce]

What? We assume madara has a brain and would attempt to dodge it, but he didn't due to his inability. Also the naruto databooks are filled with hyperboles.

No he didn't dodge it because he didn't want to. Reread chapter 672 and you tell me if Madara wasn't turned on by the thought of taking gai's attack. He's done it before against other characters like Mei but aside from Hashirama and Gai no one has made madara that horny. And like I said TST or genjutsu would have stopped gai. True the databook is filled with hyberboles but not everything in the databook is a hyperbole.

 

[Aimenaltair]

even if we count the shock wave thing as an outlier, we still have the KI struggle that beerus nulified which was confirmed to be universal, so Goku is still multi galaxy busting whether we use the shock wave or not.

 

[Krysis0]

we can't just pick and choose what is and isn't a hyperbole, it says stuff kirin and itachi's water drill ( or w.e its name is) is lightspeed.

I don't understand your logic, he said gai was good, but before that he said he had to avoid his normal punches since the force his punches generated was enough to hurt him.

 

[Oblivion00]

even if we count the shock wave thing as an outlier, we still have the KI struggle that beerus nulified which was confirmed to be universal, so Goku is still multi galaxy busting whether we use the shock wave or not.

Well the shockwave did cause many doubts but once the beam struggle happened in episode 13 it was pretty much accepted that they are at least multi-galaxy.

 

[Heatforce]

@Aimenaltair, that's fine but my issue was the shockwaves. Everyone jumped the gun too early and were throwing that feat around which was why goku was bumped up (originally). And I was told that we can't apply real physics to fiction to contradict a feat so I dunno anymore...

@Krysis0, Sure you can by using logic and community consensus. Like Temari isn't destroying the universe with her fan but Kaguya is using Amenominaka to warp dimensions. The databook also give the name of the "third eye" belonging to Kaguya known as the Rinne Sharingan which the Manga did not. So yes there is lots of room for databook confirmation as long as it is logical.

 

[Krysis0]

the databook book it self says that the attack is undodgeable, yet it gets staright up contrandicted when naruto dodges it.

 

[Heatforce]

even if we count the shock wave thing as an outlier, we still have the KI struggle that beerus nulified which was confirmed to be universal, so Goku is still multi galaxy busting whether we use the shock wave or not.

Well the shockwave did cause many doubts but once the beam struggle happened in episode 13 it was pretty much accepted that they are at least multi-galaxy.

Yeah so like an episode later they got a universal feat. But everyone was ridding me for daring to bring up the inconsistent physics of the shockwaves. Now those same users got their but in the process misinformed me and that pisses me off. I spent so long debating them and I gave up because of what they told me. Now I created this thread and made other comments on other pages that make me look like a stubborn a$$hole who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Heatforce]

the databook book it self says that the attack is undodgeable, yet it gets staright up contrandicted when naruto dodges it.

What attack, light fang? Yeah but it also says only those with the so6P chakra can use that attack, which Madara had, and Naruto has so6P chakra too so why couldn't he dodge with his sensing?

 

[Krysis0]

the databook book it self says that the attack is undodgeable, yet it gets staright up contrandicted when naruto dodges it.

What attack, light fang? Yeah but it also says only those with the so6P chakra can use that attack, which Madara had, and Naruto has so6P chakra too so why couldn't he dodge with his sensing?

what shows he sensed the attack? Anyway it says its undodgeable, which is clearly wrong

 

[Heatforce]

I guess this thread can be locked. Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.

 

[Heatforce]

@Krisys0, because naruto has sensing precog in SM. So does Madara plus he has visual precog. It isn't wrong because only someone with s06P chakra can use light fang, ergo someone with s06P chakra can dodge light fang. If kakashi or gara dodged it then you would have a point.

 

[Illuminati478]

"b) Couldn't Madara have percieved it as Gai got closer to him or when he himself was enveloped in the spacial distorition? That's how madara was able to tell space was distorted, because his staff bent when gai got right up to him. If not, I'll drop it since I don't know if I'm right or wrong to even debate this anymore."

no, sadly according to the theory of relativity, that entire scene was big bunch of nonsense, only the object that actively moves experiences the changes in space, therefore, as being the one who passively moved, would not see these effects.

there is nothing wrong in arguing, as long as you don't meaninglesly repeat your points like a broken record (which you didn't, to clarify, i am not accusing you), and being able to be presuaded. and i believe something good came of this discussion, i won't say that i've given you more knowledge about the theory of relativity, as that would be condescending towards you and arrogant of me as i am not qualified to teach or educate in any way, shape or form, but i hope i sparked your curiosity on the subject... after all, here its all fun and debates, but it is infinitely less important then learning about the real world and its glorius phenomena.

 

[Oblivion00]

@Heatforce, You are right about people jumping the gun about the shockwaves in episode 12 though. Many people including myself were hesitant about the feat.

 

[Zerzavyx98]

Several times Narutoverse has shown lightspeed feats (These are consisent)

First Ever: Night Guy vs Madara (Bent space) : https://youtu.be/kgOGZoh8ols?t=55s

2nd: Lightfang Dodge in Naruto vs Madara ( Lightfang by statement is at lightspeed, I know, people argue Naruto dodged Madara's head speed. But hey, w/e... the video shows he flew back when the lightfang was going towards him, THEN the scene showed Naruto still flowing over after Madara turned his head.) : https://youtu.be/oxDXRz4oVBg?t=1m55s

3rd: Naruto dodges Moon slicing attack Toneri did (Wasn't this calc'd at Mach 13,000??) : https://youtu.be/zDSjM-c2inM?t=1m35s

The next few are stretches, but the lightspeed feat is still consistent...

Boruto Movie:

Sasuke vs Kinshiki flying around at crazy speeds : https://youtu.be/0szycK8oOeU?t=30s

Naruto and Sasuke vs Momoshiki (when team NxS and Momoshiki run at eachother, they run so fast all of the terrain behind them is CLEARLY shown to be damaged heavily by them taking off. This is shown twice: the first run, and then another time when Naruto and Sasuke chase down Momoshiki after he's sent flying (you can see the rocks flying again): https://youtu.be/jKhRVAclCjU?t=9s


Anyways, my point is it's getting more and more difficult to say that the Narutoverse ISN'T at least close to sub-rel. All of these feats disprove sub-rel feats being outliers, its way too consistent for that type of treatment.

 

[The_Everlasting]

First Ever: Distoring space cannot really be quantified, as Illuminati mentioned earlier.

2nd: The manga had it appear that Naruto timed his movements to that of Madara's head, the anime had it differently, but that's the anime.

3rd: His sword extending was, but it was conclused that since Naruto reacted to it from a distance, it doesn't count, at least not to its fullest possible extent.

Boruto Movie: That does not remotely seem close to Sub-Relativistic or higher.