Is this enough for 1-B

[Yohata]

A world that have countless dimensional spaces
And it was explained that its not dimensions (universes )
Its stated that there is width and height and lenght and countless other dimensional spaces
And each one of this dimensional space is limitless (infinite or at least so big if iys not valid for infinite although it seem valid for me )

And if it is valid for 1-B
Is trancsending the concept of this dimensional spaces ( the concept that all dimensional spaces come from wich mean no matter how much higher D you are , you will still be a part of this concept ) enough for 1-A or is it low 1-A ??

 

[Iiliminal]

i mean iirc u need qualitative superiority and sht

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Yes, each dimension has to be qualitatively higher than the previous for it to scale higher.

Otherwise, it's just multiple dimensional spaces of the same magnitude. Like, an infinite number of 4D spaces would probably just be 2-A.

Or an infinite number of 5D spaces would just scale much higher into Low 1-C.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Is trancsending the concept of this dimensional spaces ( the concept that all dimensional spaces come from wich mean no matter how much higher D you are , you will still be a part of this concept ) enough for 1-A or is it low 1-A ??

Depends heavily on how far the cosmology goes, but it is only a step higher.

If the cosmology has High 1-B dimensions, then yeah. It would be Low 1-A. But if it has Low 1-A dimensions, it is 1-A. However, if it has 1-A dimensions, then it would still be 1-A, just a step higher.

But if say, if the cosmology has Low 2-C dimensions, transcending the concept of them would only be Low 1-C. It varies from verse to verse, context to context.

Or at least:
"At least Low 2-C, likely/possibly Low 1-C"

 

[Makoto500]

Anyways that aside.

A world that have countless dimensional spaces
And it was explained that its not dimensions (universes )
Its stated that there is width and height and lenght and countless other dimensional spaces
And each one of this dimensional space is limitless (infinite or at least so big if iys not valid for infinite although it seem valid for me )

The verse seems to explain that there are countless coordinate vectors or coordinate space, it already states that it's not dimensions as in universe and it explains that it has more than 3 coordinate vectors, though i can't understand how a coordinate vector can be infinite but maybe you could interpret this as a line being uncountably infinite to a dot (when you actually only need two points to intersect one) but anyways i still have my doubts on this but yeah 1-B is possible.

And if it is valid for 1-B
Is trancsending the concept of this dimensional spaces ( the concept that all dimensional spaces come from wich mean no matter how much higher D you are , you will still be a part of this concept ) enough for 1-A or is it low 1-A ??

If it transcends the nature of this dimensional space/coordinate space then yeah it's 1-A.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

If it transcends the nature of this dimensional space/coordinate space then yeah it's 1-A.

Only if said dimensional space/coordinate space is already Low 1-A. Otherwise it is still 1-B, just much higher into it.

Same reason why "transcending spacetime" is treated as only Low 1-C without further context.

 

[Makoto500]

You can be 1-A without H1-B or L1-A cosmo though, you just need a very specific context on conceptual transcendence.

(And i already said it's very nature on the quote above, so it should be obvious that i'm assuming it has context)

 

[Furudo_Erika]

You can be 1-A without H1-B or L1-A cosmo though, you just need a very specific context on conceptual transcendence.

Conceptual transcendence no longer automatically grant 1-A status. Hell, they don't have an inherit tier by themselves.
Conceptual difference, still only amounts to a degree higher.

 

[Makoto500]

You can be 1-A without H1-B or L1-A cosmo though, you just need a very specific context on conceptual transcendence.

(And i already said it's very nature on the quote above, so it should be obvious that i'm assuming it has context)

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Low 1-A:
Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions.

Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it.

1-A:
Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters who stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

You can be 1-A without H1-B or L1-A cosmo though, you just need a very specific context on conceptual transcendence.

And...what exactly is this "very specific context"?

 

[Makoto500]

And...what exactly is this "very specific context"?

R>F is one prime example, or you just need feats of being ontologically superior to a concept as a whole to the point adding n tuples doesn't reach you.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

R>F is one prime example, or you just need feats of being ontologically superior to a concept as a whole to the point adding n tuples doesn't reach you.

Uh...
R>F is literally one step higher.
A R>F difference between a Low 2-C structure and a higher one, said higher one would be Low 1-C still. NOT 1-A

As quoted DIRECTLY under Tier 1:
"Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

A R>F difference ONLY amounts to a level of infinity higher; like the difference between R^4 and R^5.

 

[Makoto500]

R>F directly on it's concept or nature can qualify afaik or maybe i misunderstood that part, inaccessibillity can qualify though as long as there is feats that it defies the nature of dimensions.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

R>F directly on it's concept or nature can qualify afaik, inaccessibillity can also qualify as long as there is feats that it defies the nature of dimensions.

"Inaccessibility" is such a vague term. That still could be the difference between Low 2-C and Low 1-C without explicit elaboration.

As higher dimensions are "inaccessible" to lower ones; due to more complex Euclidean geometry, or just the fact that a lower space, is practically nonexistent compared to a higher one. And "feats that it defies the nature of dimensions" does NOT include all dimensions, only the scope of what is proven to exist in the verse.

 

[Makoto500]

"Inaccessibility" is such a vague term. That still could be the difference between Low 2-C and Low 1-C.

As higher dimensions are "inaccessible" to lower ones; due to more complex Euclidean geometry, or just the fact that a lower space, is practically nonexistent compared to a higher one.

As long as there are feats i said, not per se.

Well we have this on the tiering system faq so that i don't need to go on and explain everything by myself:

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

As you can still have a 1-A+ number of dimensions.
HELL, you can LITERALLY have a Tier 0 amount of dimensions.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

What? When did 1-A+ and 0 become a number..?

Like, over a year or two ago?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

As higher dimensions are "inaccessible" to lower ones

Not on this site. The difference is "simply" uncountable infinite.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

High 1-A and above aren't functional for dimensional spaces Erika.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Quote 1-A:
Characters who can affect objects with a NUMBER OF DIMENSIONS equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters who stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

Quote High 1-A:
Characters who can affect objects that are larger than what the logical framework defining 1-A and below can allow, and as such exceed any possible number of levels contained in the previous tiers, including an infinite or uncountably infinite number. Practically speaking, this would be something completely unreachable to any 1-A hierarchies.

A concrete example of such an object would be an inaccessible cardinal, which in simple terms is a number so large that it cannot be reached ("accessed") by smaller numbers, and as such has to be "assumed" to exist in order to be made sense of or defined in a formal context (Unlike the standard aleph numbers, which can be straightforwardly put together using the building blocks of set theory). Even just the amount of infinite cardinals between the first inaccessible cardinal and aleph-2 (Which defines 1-A) is greater than cardinals such as aleph-0, aleph-1, aleph-2, aleph-3, etc., and even many aleph numbers whose index is an infinite ordinal.

Tier 0 is basically just a higher extension of High 1-A; making it the equivalent of hyper-inaccessible cardinals.
Cardinals such as Woodin and Mahlo fall under Tier 0 for example.

1-A to Tier 0 have been numbers, for a while now.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Quote 1-A:
Characters who can affect objects with a NUMBER OF DIMENSIONS equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters who stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

Quote High 1-A:
Characters who can affect objects that are larger than what the logical framework defining 1-A and below can allow, and as such exceed any possible number of levels contained in the previous tiers, including an infinite or uncountably infinite number. Practically speaking, this would be something completely unreachable to any 1-A hierarchies.

A concrete example of such an object would be an inaccessible cardinal, which in simple terms is a number so large that it cannot be reached ("accessed") by smaller numbers, and as such has to be "assumed" to exist in order to be made sense of or defined in a formal context (Unlike the standard aleph numbers, which can be straightforwardly put together using the building blocks of set theory). Even just the amount of infinite cardinals between the first inaccessible cardinal and aleph-2 (Which defines 1-A) is greater than cardinals such as aleph-0, aleph-1, aleph-2, aleph-3, etc., and even many aleph numbers whose index is an infinite ordinal.

Tier 0 is basically just a higher extension of High 1-A; making it the equivalent of hyper-inaccessible cardinals.
Cardinals such as Woodin and Mahlo fall under Tier 0 for example.

1-A to Tier 0 have been numbers, for a while now.

And yes, you CAN have a Woodin or Mahlo amount of dimensions.
They're STILL cardinals after all, just like alephs.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Not on this site. The difference is "simply" uncountable infinite.

Hence quotation marks.
Whether something is "inaccessible" or not means nothing without context, as it could just be simply worded that way.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

A dimensional space being represented by a weakly inaccessible 'amount' of layers, would by virtue not be weakly inaccessible, Erika, that assumes the arithmetic functions of a lower 'dimension' are able to have make a large cardinal, which is just the opposite of what it is. And other large cardinals are measured through consistency strength not size.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

A dimensional space being represented by a weakly inaccessible 'amount' of layers, would by virtue not be weakly inaccessible, Erika, that assumes the arithmetic functions of a lower 'dimension' are able to have make a large cardinal, which is just the opposite of what it is. And other large cardinals are measured through consistency strength not size.

And where's your source for that exactly?

Also, it requires something of that size to be destroyed to reach those tiers. So yes, size is a factor in a sense, as it requires that much power to destroy/create something of that size.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

And where's your source for that exactly?

Also, it requires something of that size to be destroyed to reach those tiers. So yes, size is a factor in a sense, as it requires that much power to destroy/create something of that size.

My source is every basic math website and pdf explaining the nature and basis behind an inaccessible cardinal.

Size is arbitrary in this context, it's a way that expresses how much of something can be inside something.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Also, why bring up "weakly inaccessible" if the very thing I'm talking about is strongly inaccessible?
I mean, it ******* says it straight up in the description.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

I believe we been talking about two entirely different things-

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Strongly inaccessible cardinals are weakly (roll with it, it's math)

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Strongly inaccessible cardinals are weakly (roll with it, it's math)

Then High 1-A gotta be fixed, oof.

 

[Makoto500]

Currently i think it's fine, from what I heard an inaccessible cardinal is used to extrapolate H1-A for the main reason that a inaccessible cardinal can't be proven in zfc and is beyond 1st order logic and not because of it being a limit of such.

The following reasons of weakly inaccessible cardinals being strongly inaccessible is because:

1. L strongly implies that every weakly inaccessible is a strongly inaccessible.

2. A strong limit cardinal can not be proven by the ordinal subscript and 1st order logic.

3. Every strongly limit cardinal is a weakly limit cardinal and every strongly inaccessible cardinal is a weakly inaccessible.

4. A weakly inaccessible cardinal usually means strongly inaccessible cardinal.

5. If the Gch holds, then a cardinal is strongly inaccessible if and only if it is weakly inaccessible.

So yeah i don't think there is anything contradictory, though I might have missed a few.

 

[Yohata]

Low 1-A:
Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions.

Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it.

1-A:
Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters who stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

And...what exactly is this "very specific context"?

Its already explained that all dimensional space come from this concept no matter how much big the number is even if its infinite number
So no matter how much higher D you are
You will always be a part of this concept
1B and high 1B are parts of this concept
So transcending it should be higher then high 1B

 

[Galaxi789]

A world that have countless dimensional spaces
And it was explained that its not dimensions (universes )
Its stated that there is width and height and lenght and countless other dimensional spaces
And each one of this dimensional space is limitless (infinite or at least so big if iys not valid for infinite although it seem valid for me )

And if it is valid for 1-B
Is trancsending the concept of this dimensional spaces ( the concept that all dimensional spaces come from wich mean no matter how much higher D you are , you will still be a part of this concept ) enough for 1-A or is it low 1-A ??

what verse is it from

 

[Yohata]

what verse is it from

The verse is already 1-A in the wiki
Im asking to see if my explanation is enough for 1-A
Because someone didn't want to accept it
He didn't even agree that the countless dimensional spaces = higher D
Thats why im asking if my explanation is enough

Btw the verse is shall i seal the heaven
The character is meng hao
He is already outer in the wiki