How do we treat transformations that move a character from one key to another?

[Blackcurrant91]

For instance Vivec in his weakened key is able to tap into Chim (as far as I am aware) which move him from his Low 2-C key to his 1-A key.

In a recent thread he was used in people where arguing him going into Chim isn't allowed due to it being a different key.

Isn't it only listed as another key for the sake of clarity?

Would it have to be listed as 'Low 2-C, 1-A via Chim' in the same key?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I actually agree that it should be "X Tier, 1-A via CHIM" or something. Although he should keep his 1-A key as well, because arguably he was permanently in that state in C0DA.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

perhaps I should make a CRT in that case because it's pretty much universaly accepted that Vivec can go Chim from both his full powered and Weakened keys.

 

[TheVoidWalker69]

I actually agree that it should be "X Tier, 1-A via CHIM" or something. Although he should keep his 1-A key as well, because arguably he was permanently in that state in C0DA.

One does not just permanently go into a state of CHIM. Besides that I do agree

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well we don't really know that. And in C0DA it was implied that he was, especially towards the end.

 

[TheVoidWalker69]

The thing is, CHIM is a state you tap into, and abuse of CHIM risks Zero-Sum. I'm not saying temporary means a few minutes, he can and has held onto the state for long periods of time. I'm just saying he probably can't hold onto it forever

 

[Konaguna]

If it's just a power boost it should all be in one key, if it grants more abilities, it should be it's separate tier

That's just my opinion tho

 

[Ogbunabali]

In theory you can. CHIM is described as a crown that breaks at the slightest hesitation so as long as you concentrate you can stay in it.

Thing is achieving CHIM already takes huge amount of mental power in the first place, and those that have achieved that state aren't exactly in a high risk of being Zero-Summed, that's blown way out of proportion here, since every CHIM user has been extremely liberal in their CHIM usage.

And Vivec has been in a perpetual state of deep concentration since Morrowind, not to mention it would explain a lot in C0DA if he did permanently CHIMed himself.

 

[YungManzi]

A 1-A power boost isn't a thing is it?

That's a state of being, which means that it should be considered a completely different key a completely different key (In versus battles).

 

[Blackcurrant91]

It's still an ability if it's an ability. Chim is basically a transformation into a 1-A being that Vivec has access to from low 2-C and 1-C keys.

 

[Wokistan]

Well OP doesn't have to restrict it if they don't want to, but they're allowed to because it changes tier.

This applies no matter how you phrase it on tbe profile.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Interpreting CHIM as a transformation or a power boost is sad.

 

[Wokistan]

If it changes someone from not 1-A to 1-A that is objectively a boost in power. If it isn't, it's not applicable for a 1-A tiering due to how one can be dimensionless without surpassing the limitation as a whole.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I think what he meant was is that it isn't some super saiyan type of power up, it's a state of being that when applied to vs battle standards is pretty op.

 

[Wokistan]

That doesn't make it not a transformation though. Altering one's state of being is like, the very definition of such.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well, no. Transformation requires you to, well, transform. CHIM is basically like a divine hypnagogia. It's an understanding rather than anything else.

 

[Wokistan]

and such an alteration would still qualify as transformative. They don't have to be physical, and such a radical alteration to become 1-A is quite the change.

This doesn't even contribute to the question of the thread so idk why matt brought it up. Pretty sure the standard either way is "Well OP doesn't have to restrict it if they don't want to, but they're allowed to because it changes tier." because only abilities that change tier can be restricted and this one does.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I mean under the site's standards it does, sure. That's why I even said that I agree that I wouldn't mind it being listed in all of his keys.

And ok? No one said anything about not being able to restrict it.

 

[Wokistan]

That's what the thread's asking though (response to the second one)

 

[Ogbunabali]

No. The thread is asking whether a transformation that's in a different key is allowed when it's not mentioned in the previous key. Like how Vivec has CHIM as it's own separate key but he can access it in both his Low 2-C and his Low 1-C key.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah and my answer is that it wouldn't be any different from a transformation being in the same key: OP can restrict it if they want because it jumps tiers, but they do not have to

 

[Ogbunabali]

Ok so we're on the same page then?

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah we agree but have been arguing about it lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A single key for CHIM is more practical.

 

[Wokistan]

I'd agree with that. It being able to be accessed from the other keys can just be noted in P&A.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I'd prefer that as well. The only reason why I wouldn't mind it being mentioned in his other tiers is because it always had to be repeated.

 

[Keeweed]

Interpreting CHIM as a transformation or a power boost is sad.

While I do find it a little dismissive of what CHIM is: what else are people supposed to call it here? I mean they technically aren't wrong it does boost his power, so calling it a power boost isn't terrible. I mean we've had many stat increases on this site that aren't treated like stat increases in verse and more like stories but it's not wrong to say it's a stat increase.

On an other note wasn't CHIM said to be non combat applicable repeatedly during the Elder Scrolls revisions?