G Rank White Fatalis

[Lasatar]

A few weeks ago, Monster Hunter Frontier Z had an update that introduced a new variant of the White Fatalis. Just a small clip of gameplay, and we already get plenty of impressive feats, mostly to do with the Powers and Abilities section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qoj_4_u3wXA&

First up, Fatalis is able to teleport, as seen about 10 seconds into the video. It is unknown what the range for this is, though. Regardless, it means that Teleportation could likely be added to Fatalis' Powers and Abilities.

Second, Fatalis is apparantly able to use some kind of ability that appears to quite literally remove the hunter from existence (skip to 10 minutes 20 seconds). Reality warping of some kind? Also, considering that the Hunter can respawn, does that make the hunters get a Mid-High or higher level of Regenerationn?

Thirdly, its power level when compared to other creatures in the series. I looked around to see if BannedLagiacrus had written anything on the subject, and apparently, a single scale from the G Rank White Fatalis has power that is unrivalled by any other monster in the verse. To quote: "Each one of G-rank White Fatalis's scales contain unbelievable power. Power that can't be rivaled". There is nothing along the lines of "rumor has it" or "it is said". It straight up says that it is that powerful, with no ifs or buts, which is rare in the Monster Hunter series, leading me to believe that it is true. If we compare it to the Planet Level White Fatalis (with a calced result of 569 Zettatons of TNT), assuming it has at least a hundred scales, it should be placed into the low end of Large Planet level.

Thoughts?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the scales are simply intended to create the strongest armor, not that a G Rank White Fatalis is thousands of times more powerful than the second strongest monster.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

In BannedLagiacrus' blog, Disufiroa still has the label of "strongest monster", although I guess now G-Rank White Fatalis COULD be the strongest given that it is stated to have unrivaled power at several points within the same blog.

I don't think that is Existence Erasure tbh. Probably just capable of utterly incinerating their body at best, since Existence Erasure seems a bit much for White Fatalis or Monster Hunter in general.

Teleportation seems to be the most possible imo, since the flash of light occurs and the very next moment G-Rank White Fatalis is no longer away from the Hunter, but directly above them while flying. This COULD be Teleportation, or even just really high movement speed. Either one seems fine to me tho


Outside of this though I still think handling the the speeds of all the Fatalis brethern is pretty important so that way we can actually set up all of the seperate Keys on the Fatalis Profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I do not know enough about Monster Hunter to be of much help.

 

[Lasatar]

So, teleportation could be a thing. It's simply a powerful attack when the Hunter's body disappears (Although, I'd like to know if this means Mid-High regen for the Hunter), and it may or may not be the strongest monster in the series. That seems to sum up what's just been said.

Either way, we're going to need to put a Key down in Fatalis' profile (not to mention it's needed an overhaul for a long time). Now we have a grand total of seven (or eight, depending on how you look at it) different versions of Fatalis, and a composite profile simply won't cut it. Perhaps we should sort out what each version is capable of, and then move onto the profile revision.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

That seems fine by me. I would assume that the current Fatalis Profile will be re-worked to solely incorporate feats and skills of the Black Fatalis?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that creating a few different profiles might be alright.

 

[Lasatar]

I was more thinking along the lines of many different keys. It might be a very long profile, but there are still longer ones. I was just saying that currently it was a mess, listing abilities from all the fatalis bretheren without distinguishing between them. I was saying we should properly categories them with a key.

So far, we've had the Black Fatalis, Crimson Fatalis, White Fatalis, Black Flame Fatalis, Crimson Demon Fatalis, G Rank Crimson Fatalis (from 4U), G Rank White Fatalis, and G Rank White Fatalis' stronger form. That's a lot of Fatalis right there. I'm going to see if I can list everything they can do.


Black Fatalis:

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Flight, Fire Manipulation, and can create explosions.

Feats: Destroyed the whole of Schrade Kingdom.

Tidbits from BannedLagiacrus: Threatens all living creatures, could scorch the whole world within a few days, and can supposedly live on through its equipment, causing all who wield it to either die from madness or disappear mysteriously.


Black Flame Fatalis:

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman physical characteristics, Flight, Fire Manipulation, Dragon Element, Regenerationn.

Feats: Stronger than regular Black Fatalis

Tidbits from BannedLagiacrus: Apparently, its shell is impervious to any and all attacks from weapons. Also, it can take over the bodies of hunters that use its equipment.


Crimson Fatalis:

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Flight (more skilled than Black), Fire Manipulation, can create explosions, and can summon meteors.

Feats: Is supposedly a regular Black Fatalis that has been driven by rage, so it stands to belive that it is likely stronger.


G Rank Crimson Fatalis (4U):

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Flight, Fire Manipulation, Heat Manipulation, explosions, and meteors.

Feats: Is a regular Crimson Fatalis who's power has increased dramatically.


Crimson Demon Fatalis:

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Flight, Fire and Lava Manipulation, and Dragon Element.

Feats: Stronger than regular Crimson.


White Fatalis:

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Flight, Electiricity Manipulation, Dragon Element, limited Weather Manipulation.

Feats: Moved the moon to create an eternal eclipse.


G Rank White Fatalis:

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Flight, Electricity Manipulation, Dragon Element, limited Weather Manipulation, and possible Teleportation.

Feats: So far, we have recieved no special feats for this Fatalis, but it is undoubtably stronger than regular White.

Info from BannedLagiacrus: The Scales contain unrivaled power, and the wing-claws manipulate this power. This same description also states that the power is immeasurable.


So we have our seven variants of Fatalis. The Black, Crimson, and G Rank Crimson (4U) should all be around a similar tier, which is based off the Scharde Kingdom feat. Black Flame and Crimson Demon are listed as Conquest War Monsters, making them around or below the likes of Shantien, Disufiroa, and Unknown (which are unknown tier, but Disufiroa is supposedly stronger than regular White Fatalis). White Fatalis is listed as Planet level due to its eclipse feat, and G Rank White is supposedly far above that.

Thoughts?

 

[Antvasima]

Seven keys might create a too cluttered and hard to read profile, unless you organise the statistics by tabbers, but I am not sure how to properly accomplish that. Still, I suppose that you could give it a try.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I think we should just bundle up the seven variants in certain groups like this

1: Black Fatalis/Black Flame Fatalis

2: Crimson Fatalis/G-Rank Crimson Fatalis/Crimson Demon Fatalis

3: White Fatalis/G-Rank White Fatalis This way we make three profiles, but each of them won't be nearly as cluttered as a seven Key profile.


Also, question for Lasatar, aren't the G-Rank Crimson Fatalis and the Crimson Demon the same thing?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Do they have the same abilities and statistics?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Black Fatalis and Crimson Fatalis are generally on the same level, although Crimson Fatalis is slightly superior to it while White Fatalis effortlessly outclasses both. Their abilities seem to vary quite a bit though.

Crimson Demon is weaker then the Black Flame by a small amount, but we are not certain if they should only scale slightly above their original forms or if they are scaled to the likes of the Whtie Fatalis for being "Conquest War Monsters" (Which are some of the most powerful mosnters in the franchise, and even White Fatalis isn't on there). Although, G-Rank White Fatalis is considered and treated as a far more powerful creature then either Crimson Demon or Black Flame.

Interestingly, in Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, the White Fatalis can be repelled and fought again later, but when it is fought again it will have full health and no broken body parts. Any other Elder Dragon that I can think of who is fought in this rematch style always returns with the damage from the last fight, yet White Fatalis doesn't, meaning it might have some kind of regenerative property.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. If they differ, several keys might be necessary after all. Seven of them are not enough to cause a complete mess, but it might be a bit hard to read.

 

[Lasatar]

If we list it as three separate keys, comining the Blacks, Crimsons, and Whites, it wouldn't be too difficult to look at or read.

In response to your question, no, G Rank Crimson from 4th gen is different to G Rank Crimson from Frrontier. I can see why you'd confuse them, though.

Also, that repel-heal thing doesn't just apply to White Fatalis. It also applies to Lao Shan Lung, Shen Gaoren, all Mohrans, and most elder dragons in general in 4th gen. In fact, the only monster that carries over its stats between quests in 4th gen is Rusted Kushala Daora. In 2nd gen and below though, everything except Lao Shan did, even if you failed the quest.

Regardless, onto the statistics. I think that Black and Crimson should be listed as city level, or possibly higher, due to destroying Schrade Kingdom. It's likely to be on a larger scale (it is a whole kingdom, after all), but we don't have physical proof of that in the games. White should be kept at Planet level due to it being the one to cause the eclipse in the first place, and G Rank White should be listed as higher (how much higher, I don't know. What's the usual placement for "limitless power" in fiction?). As for Black Flame and Crimson Demon, I have no idea.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I would have to disagree on nerfing the Black and Crimson to City level. Not only are there several statements of monsters being able to outright destroy mountains (Hellblade Glavenus, Dalamadur, Lao-shun Lung) and sink/destroy islands (Ceadeus, Dire Miralis), but Agnaktor, a low-tier monster in the verse overall, has the ability to cause a volcanic eruptions when fighting a big threat, and was able to destroy some villages while physcially being within a Volcano and not physically close to the village at all. From what I recall, volcanic eruptions vary greatly, but they can occasionally lead to City Level results on there own. Fatalis is considered superior to all of these monsters (While only potentially being on par with Dire Miralis). And all of these pieces of info are actually canon, as they come from a variety of magazines and other such sources released by Capcom themselves (This is stated at the top of all the blogs I linked).

Now, I do recall being told that this was wishful thinking in the past, and that without a kind of visual or actual visual reference this is most likely moot, but I think that if it's this consistent in these types of feats then it should be considered at the very least.


Regardless of all of that though, "limitless power" kinda varies depending on the verse itself and what power is arleady there. I don't think the statement of "limitless power" can help us get an accurate reading. :/

 

[Antvasima]

Here is some information that might be useful regarding destroying mountains and islands:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Reppuzan/Mountain_and_Island_Level_Requirements

 

[Lasatar]

Oh, right. I forgot that the Black and Crimson Fatalis would be ranked higher than Ceadeus, who may or may not be island level. Call me crazy, but I think that any island big enough to have its own mountain range is pretty darn big. I'd be very surprised if Ceadeus wasn't Island level.



Ceadeus is very strong, able to even prey on Nakarkos, so it wouldn't surprise me if Fatalis was Island level itself,or even much higher. Schrade Kingdom could have been an entire county, for all we know. However, it's extremely difficult to get an accurate reading.

 

[Lasatar]

Also, this isn't counting another fact we know about the series; The Ancient Civilisation. On the official world map, we see the beginnings of a continent on the east side, where the remnants of the civilisation such as the Tower are.



There are very interesting pieces of information linking (but not quite confirming) the ancient civilisation's destruction to Fatalis. BannedLagiacrus touched on the fact a little bit in his blog about the ancient civilisatio , describing the Fatalis as the perfect enemy for humanity. The song "The Legend of the Black Drago " supposedly descibes what happened in the Great Dragon War, which ended up with most dragons extict and the ancient civilisation completely destroyed, all by the hands (er, claws) of Fatalis. Assuming that the Ancient Civilisation covered that entire eastern continent, that is quite the feat right there.

 

[Antvasima]

If a Fatalis can destroy an Island with a mountain range on it in a single shot, I suppose that Island level seems appropriate, yes.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

...Well, since Lao-Shun Lung can topple a Mountain with an earthquake, has anyone gone out of their way to see how much energy is needed to make an earthquake powerful enough to topple a mountain?

 

[Antvasima]

It entirely depends on the size of the mountain. Violently shattering a small mountain was calculated as 7-C.

 

[Lasatar]

Sorry for the late response, everybody. So, let's sum up what we know as a refresher.

Our Black Fatalis Duo should at least be equal to the island level Ceadeus, so At Least 6-C seems like a notable tier to put it in. We know that Lao-Shan Lung is actually fleeing from a Black Fatalis in the first game, so it would make sense that Fatalis is far stronger than Lao Shan Lung. If Lao Shan can shatter mountains, that puts Lao Shan somewhere in Tier 7, so a Tier 6 Black Fatalis doesn't seem that far fetched. After all, White Fatalis is currently Tier 5.

Black Fatalis is also supposedly capable of burning the world to ash. This seems like an outlier, but it was definitely capable of burning Schrade Kingdom to ash. On the map I posted earlier, Schrade Kingdom is found in the region west of Dundorma (listed as Dondruma), and north of whatever that Arcolis Region is. That's slightly smaller than Europe, I would estimate. Not sure if it should be used, but I'm throwing it out there.

Our Crimson Fatalis Trio should be somewhat equal or slightly higher than Black. Other than that, there's not really much to go off of, since Crimson isn't really brought up much in the lore, unlike Black and White.

White is currently listed as 5-B, and I see no reason why it should be downgraded or upgraded. The G-Rank White is undoubtably stronger, but provides no feats itself. Hopefully that will change sometime soon, but Frontier isn't the sort of series that puts out Lore and more the sort of series that puts out insanely overpowered things for no reason, so I doubt we'll get anything.

Did I miss anything?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I think it was summed up nicely, honestly. The only things I think that are important enough to mention is the possibilty of teleportation for the G-Rank White Fatalis (As it instantly appears in a new position and spot in the area after a flash of light), and that, technically, the Black Flame is stronger then any versions of the Crimson Fatalis fro what i recall reading on those ecology and lore blogs.

Outside of that, I think things are summed up fairly well so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problems are that we do not know the size of the mountains Lao Shan can shatter, or how long the Black Fatalis would take to burn the surface of the world to ash.

 

[Antvasima]

Why does the White Fatalis have a 5-B ranking?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

To be fair, Black Fatalis was stated to burn the world in "a few days", which would limit it's AP quite a bit.

White Fatalis is 5-B for pushing the moon, and Darkanine did a calc for it that was accepted in the past. I also did a calc for the speed in which it flew from the moon to the Earth, though it didn't garner much attention and I'd likely have to redo it anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[Lasatar]

It seems that we can likely rule out Black Fatalis burning the world, so scaling it to Ceadeus seems like a logical thing to do. Akantor is listed between 7-C and 6-C, due to scaling from Alatreon but still being weaker, so it makes sense that Fatalis is around that level as well, due to it undoubtably being stronger than Akantor, and likely stronger than Alatreon as well.

Also, I just realised, but this calls for an Amatsu upgrade as well. It's definitely stronger than Akantor and Ukanlos, and likely only slightly weaker than Alatreon. The Deviants such as Dreadking Rathalos can likely be upgraded as well. We can worry about that later, however. I may make another blog sometime soon about the information I have discovered in the last year or so, because there's quite a lot.

But regardless, does At Least 6-C Black and Crimson Fatalis, and 5-B White Fatalis check out? As well as that, the Powers and Abilities section should be upgraded to include Regenerationn in Black's Profile, Magma Manipulation for Crimson, and possibly Teleportation in White's.

And that should be everything regarding Fatalis.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Just about, I suppose.

Although, there are some things I would like to discuss for other profiles such as low-tiers. I could try to make a Thread for that at a later date, though, as this is not the place for that kind of discussion.

However, this might be signficant, so I'll bring it up. Gogmazios houses a gem inside of itself that has the "power to burn the world". The wording may suggest that it is only the gem itself, but honestly, it wouldn't make much sense if monsters that are canonically stronger then this one weren't capable of comparable levels of destruction. And if the Fatalis and other Elder dragons like it are not capable of such destruction, then why isn't Gogmazios considered as much of a threat as them?

Plus, Gogmazios are capable of producing multiple of these as they can appear via shiny drops in the middle of the battle or by carving them out of the body after the Gogmazios was killed.

Hell, Dalamadur is treated with more authority as it is considered to be a monster capable of ending the world whereas Gogmazios isn't.

 

[Lasatar]

I don't know if item descriptions should be treated as anything other than hyperbole, but it might be worth it to remember some of them. Thanks for bringing it up anyway.

Comparing all final bosses in the series, we can deduce that Fatalis, Yama Tsukami, Akantor, Ukanlos, Ceadeus, Alatreon, Amatsu, Dire Miralis, Dalamadur, Gogmazios, Nakarkos, and even Atlal Ka to some extent, can all be rated as past a certain strength threshhold, and beyond most or all other monsters in the main series. Out of these, the strongest are Fatalis, Alatreon, and Dire Miralis. Take that as you will.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I mean, we have accepted item descriptions before. We both agreed on the meteors from Dalamadur coming from the sun, which was confirmed in both an item description and from some info from the lore blog (Which is full of canon info as it comes from official guide books and statements), as well as rating Kirin's Attack potency on the item description for one of it's horns, as it was able to generate enough power to rival "1,000 lightning bolts".

I do agree that some item descriptions should be left out, like the Zinogre's claws being a threat to all that "exist" and the Alatreon's wings being able to cut through space-time. But considering the scale at which this item occurs for Gogmazios and the mazimum power for several monsters already being Planet Level (Heck, Dalamadur is thought to be able to shape the surface of the planet and Fatalis can still technically burn the world), so it may not be too unlikely.

 

[Lasatar]

Yes, you're right. It's a good idea to consider the scale of the description and also the capabilities of the monster that the item belongs to. I don't know how powerful Gogmazios is, but I'd bet my right leg that it's stronger than Akantor, who we already know to be pretty strong. Perhaps it could be taken into account, in which case Black Fatalis's World Burning may be useable after all. I don't know though. It'd be better to ask somebody who knows about this sort of thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you summarise the changes that you wish to perform, and why?

 

[Lasatar]

Black Fatalis: List tier as "At least 6-C" for being stronger than Ceadeus (Which is able to sink whole islands. Speaking of which, the Ceadeus profile will need to be redone as well) and being stronger than Akantor and Alatreon. Add Regenerationn to Powers and Abilities.

Crimson Fatalis: List tier as "At least 6-C" for being roughly the same strength or higher as Black. Add Magma Manipulation to Powers and Abilities.

White Fatalis: Add Teleportation to Powers and Abilities. Keep tier as 5-B, or possibly add an "At Least" in front of it, due to G Rank version being stronger.

I should also like to perform a cleanup of the profile in general, due to it being a glaring mess.

(BTW, I don't think we should take the World Burning thing into account just yet. We'd need to verify its validity first).

EDIT: We currently have a low end rating of 6-B on Fatalis for demolishing the Schrade Kingdom (which is a Black Fatalis feat, BTW), so this could potentially be a downgrade, unless the Schrade Destruction feat is calced in some way. Regardless, the profile does desparately need a cleanup.

 

[Lasatar]

Oh, and by the way, GimmyJibbsJr, I was looking over your blog on DA, and I noticed you'd added speed values for the Black and Crimson Fatalis variants, listing both their regular versions and G Rank Frontier equivalents, with both low and high end taken into account. We should probably be able to use these as the speed values for Black and Crimson here, but which values should we use? Low or High end?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that your suggestions seem better than what we have currently.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Those speed feats (for the lesser First Class Dangerous Monsters) are fairly outdated, as I kind of just guess the times that each feat took place.

I do have a more accuracte solution, however. A long while ago, I made this blog, but it didn't get much attention outside of what Lasatar said. These speeds should only apply to monsters around the level of the Crimson Fatalis and such, and are likely far more accurate overall.

I do plan on redoing the speed calc for White Fatalis though, as I've figured out a way to at least pin down it's speed with a little more accuracy.

 

[Lasatar]

So for now, let's handle the speed later, and just look at the AP, Dura, and P&A. Is everything in order to make the edits?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Well, if we exclude the item description for now? Yes, everything should be fine as they are. I will make a thread later discussing speed and items descriptions, though.