Fire Emblem Gaiden/Echoes Revision

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Weakness for all magic users in Gaiden/Echoes: Magic will harm the user by a small degree

Although, this might be small enough to ignore and just call a game mechanic.

New ability, Mila's Turnwheel, Which people have translated as being able to see into the past and future of the user, and the FE wiki also describes it as:

"Mila's Turnwheel is a relic tied to the goddess, Mila and has the ability to grant visions of the past and future to the user. In game, it also has the ability to rewind time in short spurts"

So this would grant the user, from what I understand, the ability to see into the past and a limited form of precognition, as Mila's Turnwheel seems to have limited uses


tl;dr

Magic harms the user, ability to see into the past and future with Mila's Turnwheel

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

bump

 

[PaChi2]

magic doesnt harm the user, magic drains the user's lifeforce, which in gaiden is reflected by hp lowering (as they dont use books, they learn the spells).

Mila's turnwheel is really limited battle-wise, but sure, it should be added.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

^I should've been more specific when I said "harm", I did mean drain the user's life

 

[Lina_Shields]

If this was shown within the game, it does seem like a reasonable addition, although can you list the profiles that will be affected by this?

Should be mostly from Gaiden/Echoes however.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

So far, the only Gaiden profiles are Celica and Alm, so Turnwheel would canonically apply to Alm, unless it's revealed that Celica also gets a Turnwheel, and life draining magic weakness should apply to Celica, and any other Gaiden/Echoes magic users

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

So, should this be added? Or should we wait until Echoes comes out for more info about Mila's Turnwheel?

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, this would only apply to Alm via canon, correct?

A description for Mila's Turnwheel will be added to the Notable Attacks/Techniques section, which would be read as

• As a relic tied to the goddess Mila, it has the ability to grant the visions of the past, as well as the future to said user. It is able to rewind time in short bursts, although this is exclusive to the game.

I will add this to Alm's page, for now.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

According to what I know so far and the FE wiki itself, it's given to Alm by Silque, so presumably, unless it's revealed that a second Turnwheel is given to Celica, it should probably remain Alm exclusive via canon (But Celica will probably get one, since she has access to the Turnwheel feature)

 

[Lina_Shields]

Said ability has been added to Alm's page anyways. Are you okay with the description written down for Mila's Turnwheel?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Yea, it seems alright

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Also, why is Celica with Ragnarok Country level for being able to fight Juda?

Juda can be fought by just about anyone, the only thing that makes him so "powerful" is that he's only able to be hurt on every 4th turn (game mechanics)

Then again, I suppose Alm and Juda are able to fight eachother in Chapter 5, even after Alm obtains the Valentian Falchion, but that should be no different than regular enemies harming Exalted Chrom, Endgame Marth, Endgame Corrin, Holy Weapon users, etc.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

The new Echoes trailer shown the Mila's Turnwheel in action, in gameplay, all moves reset going in reverse until the start of the battle, so that means the Precog reaches for quite a bit, unless it's actually just rewinding time, or maybe both, but Precog is what people have been getting from translations

 

[Lina_Shields]

What do you suggest for Celica and Juda's new tiering? Since your reasoning seems to be sound for the most part, I would be okay with your suggestions for the most part.

• Juhda
• Marla
• Heste

Just wondering. Do we have profiles for these guys here on site?

EDIT: Apparently, we do not have them.

 

[LordXcano]

The abilities are fine but where is this Country feat that Juda, Marla, and Heste seem to have? And if can be fought by anyone, shouldn't everyone in the cast scale to him?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

The best feat Juda has is that he resurrected Duma and, his best feat other than that would be freeing Alm from the Draco Zombie trap, also, this would also scale to Camus, Palla, Est, and Catria (meaning it scales to Marth and co, then Tiki, then Awakening directly scaling to Tiki, then to Fates directly scaling to Awakening, and also the same universe scaling that has been used for FE4 and FE5) since they're all present within Gaiden and could all fight Juda, the Pegasus knights would even be in Celica's party, who is the first person to fight Juda, this fight is also before Endgame/Chapter 5

But...this feat is most likely around, city or mountain level and was only done once, I don't think that anyone should scale to just ONE feat when other characters have nothing at that level

 

[LordXcano]

@JSW

Could you link the City/Mountain level feat? Maybe it could be calc'd.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Okay, after watching a chapter 4 playthrough again, I feel like at most this would end up at City level

The feat of causing the landslide starts at around :50 and ends at :55

At the very end of Celica's route, Juda reveals that he had created the landslide to trap Alm, but if Celica agrees to become a sacrifice to Duma, he'd set Alm and his party free, Celica agrees and the entire landslide is cleared, without any showing of rubble (Although this is possibly just due to limitations of the system itself), as Juda has removed the landslide, his magic is already shown to have incredible range, as he kills the NPC that tells Celica his weakness while not even being in the same area at all, so it's very possible that Juda removed the landslide himself instead of having someone else do it (Also, Hark, I think that was his name, the previous high priest of Duma was able to promote Alm from the other side of the country with his magic, and iirc Juda should be stronger or at the very least comparable)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGorLlVk4j0

 

[LordXcano]

TBH, seeing how fast that landslide went and how big it is in comparison to the continent makes me feel like Country is a low-ball for that.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Seems like a bit of an outlier, unless Juda is shown to actually be more powerful before Endgame in Echoes, since original Gaiden doesn't even imply that Juda got stronger from his first fight

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

So, I feel that if unless first fight Juda wasn't the real Juda, or if Chapter 5 Juda got a power boost, Country level Juda is an outlier, meaning Celica's country level scaling to him would be incorrect

But Juda has the same stats (game mechanic, I know, and Desaix's double had almost identical stats as well other than Defense and Resistance) and the same 4 turns "seal" that protects him from damage

 

[LordXcano]

Are there any other feats to scale Juda from then?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Juda, like a lot of big bad Dark Mages in Fire Emblem games, are essentially featless other than resurrecting the big bad enemy and fighting your party once or twice, like Gharnef, Validar, and to a much lesser extent, Nergal (who actually had feats)

 

[LordXcano]

I suppose he could be at least Large Building level given that spells that create natural lightning (Elthunder) exist?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Juda would definitely be at least Large Building level for the same reasons why we list any other boss as At least High 8-C, for fighting the combined party

 

[LordXcano]

Why is fighting the whole party 8-C?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

At least High 8-C for fighting multiple High 8-C characters at the same time

 

[LordXcano]

Where does their 8-C stat come from?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

High 8-C is via scaling

Camus, Palla, Est, and Catria are all present within Gaiden

 

[Lina_Shields]

• The party is rated High 8-C via scaling (to other Fire Emblem characters?)
• Juda is rated "At least High 8-C" via fighting the entire party.

Now, about this picture, any ideas about how large the continent in this picture would be?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Characters in Gaiden can easily scale without using the same universe scaling we use for FE4 and FE5, since Camus/Zeke joins Alm's party, and Catria, Palla, and Est join Celica's party

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Should we add the life draining to Celica's weaknesses?

Also, how should we scale FE4&5? I think same universe scaling is ridiculous and shouldn't be used(It's like scaling Speedwagon to Star Platinum for being in the same unverse, or Farmer with Shotgun to Beerus for the same reason), especially since they don't directly scale to any of the cast from FE1,2,3,Awakening, or Fates (They only scale to Naga with Holy Weapons, since Loptyr scales to Naga)

And Celica should be changed to just Large Building level, Ragnorok also isn't exclusive to her as Delthea/Dyute, a regular unit, can learn Ragnorok, which is the spell that's used for the Country level reasoning on Celica, with this logic, FE1,2,3,Awakening, and Fates would all be Country level via Scaling to Delthea (I only left out 4 and 5 since I don't agree with same universe scaling, as none of the characters from 4 and 5 met the 1,2,3, Awakening, or Fates crew, the only connection I could make to scale would be the Deadlords, but some of them are different Genders in Awakening, meaning they might not even be the same beings)

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

The Turnwheel is also going to be used to summon the Phantom units (Phantom Marth, Robin, Ike, Lucina, Roy, and Corrin, or an allied monster unit) for "1 turn", so should limited Summoning be added to Alm?

 

[PaChi2]

Juda, like a lot of big bad Dark Mages in Fire Emblem games, are essentially featless other than resurrecting the big bad enemy and fighting your party once or twice, like Gharnef, Validar, and to a much lesser extent, Nergal (who actually had feats)

I know its offtopic, but still, Validar had the "feat" of matching chrom one on one. Also, not quite sure, but iirc Gharnef was hyped to be somewhat comparable to FE1 Medeus.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Yes, I did say that the feats of the big bad Dark Mages usually just have the feats of fighting your party once or twice and resurrecting/summoning the big bad enemy

 

[PaChi2]

I mean, Validar did it on a cutscene, which is different from your average Dark mage (ie. Izuka).