Cueball revision (Or: does programming a universe simulation give reality warping and high tier?)

[DontTalkDT]

So I post the picture to the right mainly, because that is everything the page is based on, so that everyone should be able to give an opinion here.


I want to debate whether the entire "in the rock simulation" key should be removed.

What Cueball does here in a very laborious fashion with stones could be described as "A physicist, that solved physics, decides to sit down on his computer and program a virtual reality universe".

Or in other words what every damn programmer in SAO, or any other virtual reality isekai, could do after some point.


Now one argument I got against this in the past is "anyone who sees our reality as mere fiction would be 10-B" if we went with this.

Certainly not an argument without a point. A being that trancends our reality and for which it is a mere virtual simulation would usually be considered as some high tier character (as long as the virtual world is the normal human world of course, so no matrix).

Or would it? Usually those beings archieve that due to godlike superpowers or tech. In this case however it is a normal, immortal, human that does so.

It is closer to figuring out that you are an NPC in the matrix, than figuring out that there is a great god for which normal humans are as insignificant as fiction.


So I want to know what people think about this. Should it be decided that the key stays, there are revisions that need to be done for it, in my opinion.

Should revision be decided o
First: His intelligence. Currently it reads "He knows the past and present state, position etc. of every particles of the universe, as he is the one to have set them like this."
That however is a huge uncertain assumption, due to the way a turing machine works. As he even puts it in the comic "each new row followed from the last in a simple pattern".

Cueball does the work that a Turing machine does on a band here and as such he only requires very few understanding on what each step actually does or the universe at large. He only needs to now the last row (which he can see) and the pattern from which the next row follows, which is what he derived by solving physics.

It is essentially the difference between knowing how to build a computer and being able to tell and having remembered what each binary string in a program does, while it runs. He can do the former, but not necessarily the latter.

So his intelligence should be supergenius for solving math and physics, instead of nigh-omnisicent.


Next I don't think he qualifies for plot manipulation. He doesn't manipulate a narrative like a fiction, but does a simulation. That is a difference, in my opinion.

Then his tier should be 3-A. He can quite simply stop his simulation and he basically rewrites the universe the entire time in what is an instant for the universe.

I would also consider changin his infinite speed, to human speed. I had a similar case with The Old Man of Wandering Mountai , but decided against ranking him as infinite due to the fact that he only really is infinite if the opponent is caught in his power. If the opponent resists the influence it would not need to go with the pace of cueball simulating the universe. The same would be the case here, I think. If someone can resist being simulated than infinite speed also isn't really the case anymore.

His range should be changed to universe level, if he is made 3-A.

His durability reasoning should be adjusted. He didn't really tank the big bang or anything. I think it would probably be universe level given that simulated attacks couldn't hurt him, even if he really is just a normal human outside.

The Notable Attacks/Techniques section should be rewritten a bit, in my opinion. It is true that he has complete control over the universe if he is simulating it, but as I said in regards to the intelligence, if he tries to do changes deviating from the usual pattern that is like trying to interfere with a computer by changing binary.

So he is absolute cause of all changes, but can likely only coordinate them, beyond the usual simulation, to a limited extent.

Likewise I would agree that he has control over objects smaller than atoms, but the numbers of rocks should be removed as reasoning. The amount of rocks has more to do with how much information is necessary than how large something is.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The ending alone heavily hints that the "normal world" IS the world made by Cueball. Even then, by that logic stuff like SAO, The Matrix or whatever wouldn't have any key for them inside the simulation. Cueball has a degree of interaction with the beings inside the simulation major enough to warrant a key for this.

We wouldn't rate an SAO programmer to be Low 2-C alone. But if said programmer interacted with the virtual world from outside of it and attacked simulated characters then it would warrant a key for said Low 2-C key (Still inside the simulation)

Now for the changes.

There is a difference between building a computer and building one while manually operating every single minute steps the computer takes on your own. The latter is what Cueball does.

The problem is that I really doubt that anyone can "resist" being simulated. If Cueball doesn't run the simulation, then nothing moves, so there is no time. Anyone able to move during these circumstances would be able to move when there is no time, thus have infinite speed. It would be really silly to assume that anyone who can resist time stop can now move if the simulation isn't running.

He shouldn't be 3-A for the same reasons that, say, a MFTL+ shouldn't be rated 5-B if they're able to destroy the planet in an instant through repeated strikes. Even moreso if he doesn't have infinite speed and just passive time manip instead.

I guess so for durability, but giving him 10-C dura would be kinda weird (And I already said that 3-A AP is no)

Like I said above, he's the cause behind every single minute steps of the computer. He could completely re-make the simulation on a whim and no one would notice. Saying he doesn't have full control of the world under these circumstances wouldn't really be right.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The ending alone heavily hints that the "normal world" IS the world made by Cueball. Even then, by that logic stuff like SAO, The Matrix or whatever wouldn't have any key for them inside the simulation. Cueball has a degree of interaction with the beings inside the simulation major enough to warrant a key for this. We wouldn't rate an SAO programmer to be Low 2-C alone. But if said programmer interacted with the virtual world from outside of it and attacked simulated characters then it would warrant a key for said Low 2-C key (Still inside the simulation)

I am not claiming that it isn't necessarily our world. However it is a completely different topic wether we should treat our world being a world of actual matter and energy and there being a godlike being transcending it the same as our world actually being a simulation and there being a normal human transcending it.

In in regards to SAO: You are wrong, we debated that in the past. If a programmer in SAO used programming or admin rights to interfere with the game world he wouldn't get stats from that.

The reason for that is that in the end the game is just a virtual reality and we should technically evaluate any feat happening in it as below human level.

We only give them keys in the simulation, because these are the battle stats interesting for the vs battles. But even if we do that we don't forget that it is actually just virtual reality, hence influence where the game is treated like a game, instead of like game like reality, as it is the case when a programmer or admin interferes, we would not count that as feats and give stats for it.


Now for the changes.

There is a difference between building a computer and building one while manually operating every single minute steps the computer takes on your own. The latter is what Cueball does.


Nope. I wanted to avoid it but here is a basic introduction in how a turing machine works: http://www.texample.net/media/tikz/examples/PNG/turing-machine.png

Look at that picture. First you have the tape, that would be the totality of space cuball is in. This tape is made up of various fields, these are either the rows of stones cuball has or parts of the rows of stones. Than there is the read/write head, that would be cuballs hands and eyes. And lastly there is the program, that would be the pattern according to which cuball derives the next row of stones from the previous row.


So here is how a turing machine works: First you have an initial input. That is a few symbols that you write in the fields of the tape (exactly one symbol per field). Than the read/write head reads only the first symbol. According to which symbol it read and in which state the program is, it does the following things:

1. write a symbol in the field it just read

2. move the read/write head one field to the left or right

3. change the program into a new state

The program is a so called DFA, which is short for deterministic finite automaton.

The DFA is made up of a fininite amount of states and a finite number of rules on how to switch between these states.

Usually one visualizes it something like this . Each circle is a state and each arrow represents that the DFA can switch from the state it is coming from into the state the arrow is pointing to. The symbols close to the arrows (here 0 and 1) tell you what has to be read in order to switch the state accordingly.


What you see here is that a DFA only ever has a fixed finite amount memory. There are some amount of problems that you can solve with a DFA alone, but already a simple task like confirming whether the sum of two arbitrary natural numbers equals another natural number is impossible to them.

They are basically infinite times less power calculation machines than a turing machine as a whole and, as you can guess, from the DFA alone you wouldn't be able to tell at which point you are in a large calculation, because it goes into each of its states multiple times during the calculation.

In order to do the entire job cueball only needs to remember the program, that is the DFA with finite states and rules to switch between states. He doesn't even need to know what his previous steps where or anything.

He also doesn't need overview over the entire tape, but only ever over the symbol aka row of stones that the read/write head is currently at.

So yeah, there is a huge difference between being able to manipulate the stones to do a computer like simulation and having any knowledge of what is happening.

The problem is that I really doubt that anyone can "resist" being simulated. If Cueball doesn't run the simulation, then nothing moves, so there is no time. Anyone able to move during these circumstances would be able to move when there is no time, thus have infinite speed. It would be really silly to assume that anyone who can resist time stop can now move if the simulation isn't running.
Huge NLF right there. And I am pretty certain some Digimon actually have resistance to stuff like having their Data altered and deleted, which would be pretty exactly the resistance that would prevent this.

So yeah, you can very much resist it without being infinitely fast.

He shouldn't be 3-A for the same reasons that, say, a MFTL+ shouldn't be rated 5-B if they're able to destroy the planet in an instant through repeated strikes. Even moreso if he doesn't have infinite speed and just passive time manip instead.
If he simply stops placing stones the universe is effectively erased from one moment to the next. The past continues to exist, as in the last state he simulated, but it effectively completely ends the worlds future. Placing no rocks in the future is the equivalent of pulling the plug of the PC doing the simulation.

Im pretty sure we would qualify that as 3-A.