Character Statements

[LordAizenSama]

So there was recently a page put up to help with Character Statements in a verse and how they should be treated, and was thinking of adding a fourth Opinion on the Page regarding a Authors Narrative view on a persons power.

But it would be helpful to have some help/input on what the description of it should be and how exactly it should be intrepreted.

Any Ideas?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

You mean like Author's intent or aka, "Word of God" opinion?

 

[LordAizenSama]

Yeah Kind of, what i'm talking about is typically found in Lightnovels or books

Heres a example: "Magic God Othinus could control everything. Without exaggeration, she controlled the world itself. If she wanted to, she could have galaxies collide to kill Kamijou Touma."

It's essentially just a Authors Point of view/Narrative in the story

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Yeah Kind of, what i'm talking about is typically found in Lightnovels or books
Heres a example: "Magic God Othinus could control everything. Without exaggeration, she controlled the world itself. If she wanted to, she could have galaxies collide to kill Kamijou Touma."

It's essentially just a Authors Point of view/Narrative in the story

Mmm, got'cha. Idk. I feel kind of conflicted in the sense that yeah it's the authors character(s) and he/she can decide and write that their character can do this or that, but it's like....can we seriously interpret as being a legit feat or not even though they've literally written it in their stories?

 

[LordAizenSama]

mmhm, it's likely the most creditable character statement you can get, although you definitely have to be more aware of things like hyperbole or inconsistencies that may occur.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

mmhm, it's likely the most creditable character statement you can get, although you definitely have to be more aware of things like hyperbole or inconsistencies that may occur.

Oh that too. Thanks for reminding me, Aizen. That's another thing. Like what if this character did something that later became a hyperbole or it makes it inconsistent with another feat in the LN?

Nonetheless, i would probably go with this but possibly make a note about the potential stuff like you just said since that can actually happen.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Yes it should definitely be taken with a grain of salt, but it's something we should be wary of with all character statements as well I suppose

EDIT: if it causes inconsistency or turns out to be exaggerated I think It would just be disregarded because it goes against what we're shown in the story, Feats>Statements

 

[Sheoth]

Well most character statements need to be looked at with consideration as they may very likely be hyperbole. From the way the Othinus quote is worded though, it doesn't sound like an exaggeration in any way and looks pretty legit. It also helps that it sounds to be within Othinus' general rang of power and not something that is completely above what she can do normally.

So yeah, basically, they should be looked at and considered in several ways if they seem even slightly contradictory/incorrect.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Yes, the only thing is how this should be worded. any thoughts on that?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure if we should mix narrator statements with a character statements page, but I will inform Lord Kavpeny about this topic.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I'm not sure how we would respond to authors who have enough free time on their hands to make statements about their characters' abilities and then show off the feats that would prove it as, perhaps, a short story, trying to make it more canon than just word of mouth and trying to bypass the "Death of the Author" line of thinking that seems to be common here.

Sorry, staff only.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, to give my 2 cents about this:

One would have to check if the statement could just be a rhetorical device and then if the statement is contradicted through other known facts.

If that isn't the case it usually is trustable, given that an author writes something in such a way that a reader would believe the things to be correct, which are correct. So lying to a reader without clearing it up actually doesn't happen.

That would be true for author statements and character statements alike, even through character statements have to be additionally controlled, given that a character can give subjective imput to demonstrate the reader their perspective, justifying the guidelines given on the page.

But especially when it comes to explanations of how a power works and in extension of that what could also be done with it, one can usually trust the depiction of the work.

 

[Antvasima]

Given that we don't seem to get a lot of replies, do you think that we should move this thread to the "General" forum instead, so the regular members can offer input as well? It worked out with the "Aim dodging" thread.

 

[Antvasima]

In either case, if we are to include this, we will probably have to rename the page to simply "Statements" or something similar, as it would focus more on statements in general.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Seems fine to move it

Although When I read it as "Character Statements" I Think of it as Statements about a character in story, not a Character giving a statement about another character, so I think the way it's currently titled is ok

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[LordAizenSama]

actually on second thought Ant, if We changed it to "Statements" we could also include how we interpret Word of God statements, as I don't believe we have a page covering it elsewhere. would it be a good idea?

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe. But we first have to get good well-written definitions for these potential additions to the page.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Alright.

 

[Victor2]

i think the character itself first should be relible (e.g whis). Narration should have feat`s to back it up otherwise we would need to accept BS Statements from naruto verse like madara saying he can cut anything in the universe or so.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I think it's alright as long as it isn't ridiculous Hyperbole like the one you mentioned, but you do have to be more wary of things like that, yes.

 

[Victor2]

No. that`ll be fallacy if we accept one for one character but not for other just cause it looks ridiculous. we have to be more acurrate when accpeting character statements, hence my comment on the character itself as well as narrator having feats to back it up first.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

well, if the statement about power is massively beyond what we have seen so far and there has been no recent training or upgrade, it the statement would be dubious of course

but if the character has a proper powerscaling and/or a recent sudden massive boost, then it becomes more believable still if it has reasonable context to it, then it can be taken with a grain of salt

 

[Victor2]

well, if the statement about power is massively beyond what we have seen so far and there has been no recent training or upgrade, it the statement would be dubious of course
but if the character has a proper powerscaling and/or a recent sudden massive boost, then it becomes more believable still if it has reasonable context to it, then it can be taken with a grain of salt

i agree with this. if the character statements aren`t too far a head of what was displayed in the series and has lot`s of datebooks backing it up (e.g Cell`s statement).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My two cents on character statements:

http://i.picpar.com/pTHb.jpg

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to not let this thread deteriorate with sidetracks, I would appreciate well-written segments that could serve as possible additions to the page.

Does the OBD have a section about this that could give us some pointers?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

There's Hyperbole which is the closest thing to the current discussion and skimming through it seems to be rather reliable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

well, if the statement about power is massively beyond what we have seen so far and there has been no recent training or upgrade, it the statement would be dubious of course
but if the character has a proper powerscaling and/or a recent sudden massive boost, then it becomes more believable still if it has reasonable context to it, then it can be taken with a grain of salt

i agree with this. if the character statements aren`t too far a head of what was displayed in the series and has lot`s of datebooks backing it up (e.g Cell`s statement).

I also agree with this.

 

[LazyHunter]

Reading through the thread I understand that we need to come up with a way to describe and explain the reliability of statements made by a narrative or the author to complete the good explanation already present of statements made by in-story characters. As we all agree (and LN readers like myself are very aware of), the problem with narative is that authors usually use hyperboles and similar tools to write a story, so the statements in narrative need to be closely examined in the context of the story. For example, earler mentions of Mikoto's lightning being lightspeed are clearly hyperboles and aren't valid feats. However, statements about Fiamma being able to destroy a planet or Othinus controlling galaxies seem to be reasonable statements considering their powers and status in the story.

Author statements should basicallly be considered the highest possible version of a character statement. If an author says things like: character A is stronger than character B, character C has a particular skill or weakness, etc; they should be considered reliable statements unless they conflict what we actually see in the story. For example, a character stated to be lightspeed who's matched or blitzed by established hypersonic characters in a non-outlier, PIS way.

However, in both of this cases we should also note NLFs. If the author or the narrative states something like a character has a one-hit kill, or an undodgeable, all powerful, unblockable power then that should be judged by the story's context and its mechanics. A character having an attack described as being able to kill anyone in a building level setting shouldn't be automatically assumed capable of killing superior characters unless the mechanics of the attack clearly show it possible. For example, a Wall level character that has an attack that automatically destroys the opponent's heart inside their body could kill a Country level character or higher if they don't have a countermeasure or can survive that level of injury.

If we want to write it following the Green Knight example already used in the page, maybe something basic like this would work.

"Option 4: The narrative itself calls the Green Knight indestructible. This statement could be interpreted similarly to Option 2 in that it should be examined in the context of the story. For example, an indestructible character in a low fantasy setting would not automatically be indestructible in settings with more destructive weapons or powers.

Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings."

 

[Antvasima]

I rather like LazyHunter's suggestions for additions. What do the rest of you think? Should we use them along with a variation on the text from the hyperbole section linked above? Is there anything else that we should add to this?

 

[Victor2]

at the end it pretty much comes down to who ever have the most reliability. like if an arrogant character states he can beat another character when he clearly couldn`t, shouldn`t be taken literally. same goes for author, we can`t take author`s word in every aspect. if the author truely means what he mean`t he`ll eventualy will show the feat itself or close to it (e.g beerus).

 

[Victor2]

yea, LazyHunter sugguestions are petty solid imo. i agree with it

 

[LazyHunter]

Yeah, in the end all statements have to be judged by the same things:

1. Is the source of the statement reliable?

2. Does the statement conflict with the story or feats of the character?

3. Is the statement only valid in the context of its setting or does it hold up in comparison with other settings?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I like it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So do I.

 

[Antvasima]

I have now added option 4 and 5, and renamed the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help to LazyHunter. Does anybody think that I should make adjustments to the Statements page?

 

[LazyHunter]

Unless we are planning to use something like the Saint Seiya image that Matthew posted to illustrate how not to take statements at face value, I think the page is fine. Maybe we could do like you suggested and link to the Hyperbole page.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Antvasima You could add the terms 'outlier' and/or 'inconsistency' to the definition (example: the narrator claims the protagonist could destroy the universe, even though the strongest character in the story is only say, country level. so obvious hyperbole and inconsistent as it doesn't match the power level of verse and feats). Also perhaps joke/gag statements about power, and rhetoric

 

[LordAizenSama]

I like Lazyhunters suggestion,I think it's good to use.