Cardfight AP Downgrade

[Quangotjokes]

Uh, you mean something Tsukuyomi has absolutely never shown in her whole depiction of the anime and something she demonstrably wasn't doing?

Unless an explosion means changing someones locations, I don't think I need to say how silly this alternative is.

A moving moon is also never shown.

11:00 she literally flies up and the moon is behind her. No sign of the moon being move or anything.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A moving moon is also never shown.

Saying never shown over and over again isn't an argument.

11:00 she literally flies up and the moon is behind her. No sign of the moon being move or anything.

Literally my whole essay was made debunking this.

This is just circular now.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Saying never shown over and over again isn't an argument.

Literally my whole essay was made debunking this.

This is just circular now.

your essay was wrong. But I don't see no point in running circles with you. My argument's are made so I'll just wait for @LordGriffin1000 to make a decision.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just says im wrong

Great argument. Well, your right on one thing, Running circles with you is a waste of time and annoying. So im waiting on LordGriffin to respond as well.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Okay so to start with my explanation of disagreeing with this downgrade, the biggest issue to address is part of the OP here:

The OP is ignoring context as to what Tsukuyomi does and is capable of, especially by saying "there's no reference to the event of the moon moving", when that is in fact wrong.

Tsukuyomi is a Unit that, in several iterations of it's appearance in battles in the series, has blatant dominion of the moon as celestial objects. This is first demonstrated by Godess of the Full Moon Tsukuyomi calling forth a moon almost instantly just after being brought forth.



(timestamp, incase it wasn't embedded, is 18:11).

This, of course, is also not the only time Tsukuyomi does this either.

A very damning case of this happening happens in this later episode:



12:30 - 14:16 demonstrate this. Please read everything in this upcoming explanation.

Misaki has a cardfight with an opponent, and in this particular battle, we outright see (at 12:59 to be exact) that the environment they battle in on Planet Cray is completely sunny out. Clearly showing that it's daytime during the time of their battle.

This context is important, because 13:14 demonstrates that Misaki already has Full Moon Tsukuyomi out into battle as her Vanguard (for those that don't know the context of the series, a Vanguard is a Unit the cardfighter possesses to battle with, so in other words, Misaki is already using Tsukuyomi to battle with). That means, Tsukuyomi is brought forth into battle during the day time in this instance.

Then, at 13:45 when we see Tsukuyomi getting ready to attack her opponent, the moon appears and it becomes dark in the setting to clearly resemble night time. And then uses the moon as part of her attack at 13:54. This means, Tsukuyomi called forth a moon during battle here, and actively does this.

Finally, at 14:14 onward, after Tsukuyomi's attack gets successfully blocked by the opponent, the setting changes back to daytime like it was before (shown when Misaki prepares to attack her opponent with her other Units).

This case here is a daming instance of her moving the moon forth by coming into a daytime setting, showcasing the moon and making it night when attacking, and then it goes back to day after her attack is finished. Which shows Tsukuyomi has clear dominion of the moon, actively does this, and very much supports the idea that she calls it forth.

I'd like to point out that I've asked previously about whether or not these animations were simply just summon illusions or not and was told they are legit.

I'll say that it is odd that it gets night time when the moon is brought out despite it's still day time so the only way for that to logically happen is if the sun was moved but ProfessorKukui4Life seems to have address this in the comments above.

Now, in the case of Cresent Tsukyomi's feat, I'll get that in a second. But first, I want to show another instance of Full Moon Tsukuyomi moving the moon. And it's in the very episode the OP linked for this thread.



(Timestamp, incase its not embedded, is 20:38)

What the OP happened to not show in his post here

Is that Misaki uses Full Moon Tsukuyomi and a moon appears behind her when getting ready to attack. Just like I showed above. And here, the moon is definitely shown to be moving. But don't take my word for it. The scans here, to ensure they aren't dodged or accidentally missed, will prove it for me.

The moon's positioning between these 2 moments, from the time Tsukuyomi attacks and by the time she finishes attacking, is blatantly not the same. We literally see the moon behind Tsukuyomi when she's going into her attack phase, and then it's shown to be in front of her, and her opponent, moments later when she's attacked. And we already know that Tsukuyomi actively calls the moon forth as part of her attacks, as the above clip shows is the case.

Why would the moon, during this specific attack phase, just randomly be in completely different positions if she wasn't moving it? The interpretation that it isn't, in this context, doesn't make sense and requires more evidence from the opposition to suggest an interpretation different from what the entire scene in and of itself already gives to us, and other supporting feats. More could be given for her, but I don't think I need to under these circumstances.

I'll admit this seems pretty clear cut. The moon is behind her pre attack and then after the attack it's moved further out. You could argue animation error but that would need more evidence such as the series screwing up animation consistently on a basis.

Now to address Cresent Moon Tsukuyomi's feat.


To start off with, this isn't really much of a counter. Her flying up in the air is to signify that she isn't sitting still and is going to attack her opponent. That doesn't necessarily mean the moon isn't moving simultaneously to be included in her attack phase. However, this is just a minor thing I wanted to point out. There's better reasoning for why Cresent Moon would be moving it.

Simply put, Cresent Tsukuyomi and her capabilities are literally no different than from Half Moon and Full Moon, with the only obvious difference being each form is stronger than the other. Outside of clear power difference, all 3 variants of Tsukuyomi do the exact same thing as each other, and effect the moon the same way when it appears during their attacks in battles they are used:

(And of course, the scan of Full Moon Tsukuyomi above)

The basic run down? Given what all 3 forms of Tsukuyomi are capable of in relation to each other, and their obvious similarities outside of strength differences, it should not be unreasonable to say Crescent Moon Tsukuyomi can move moons like her Full Moon form generally can.

For me, I could still see it as an angle thing but I understand your point.

There is also another case of moon moving that should be clear too. Not as blatantly so as I what I showed for Full Moon Tsukuyomi, but it should suffice in making the point. Here in this episode:



Pay attention to the timeframes I will give.

Now in this episode, Misaki has a cardfight against one of her friends.

At 11:41, we see the area of where they are battling on Planet Cray. There is no showing of a moon being in their vicinity.

13:42, Misaki is shown to be using Half Moon Tsukuyomi as the Vanguard Unit she's battling with. Now, why is this important?

Because at 14:23, Misaki rides onto Full Moon Tsukuyomi, and in this instance, the moon is out before Full Moon Tsukuyomi comes into battle.

So what would this mean? There was no moon present at the start of the cardfight, but Full Moon Tsukuyomi didn't call it forth here since it was present before Misaki called her forth. This would be a supporting feat for Half Moon Tsukuyomi being able to, again, effect the moon in the same manner (unless one wants to try gunning for this moon appearing out randomly for no reason).

We really don't get a full shot of behind the monsters in the timestamp you posted. However given previous showings of the monster, I'd argue it's likely she effect the moon but this is supporting evidence like you said yourself.

I'm going to half to agree with ProfessorKukui4Life on the moon moving being legit mainly for the moon legit being moved post her attack despite it being behind her pre attack, and the other stuff acting as supporting evidence. But that doesn't mean I don't understand the OP's argument. I suggest more input be given by other members just to be sure.

I won't be able to reply for some time (low phone battery) but I'll try and keep up with this thread just in case.

 

[Quangotjokes]

I'll admit this seems pretty clear cut. The moon is behind her pre attack and then after the attack it's moved further out. You could argue animation error but that would need more evidence such as the series screwing up animation consistently on a basis.

It's a full moon in both shots though, the sun would have also had to move with the moon as well for that not to be an animation error.

Edit: The planet also has multiple moons.

We also see the angle the moonlight is pointed during the attack with no sign of the moon to be moving.

21:00

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It's a full moon in both shots though, the sun would have also had to move with the moon as well for that not to be an animation error.

Enough with this nonsense. The sun would not need to more for a rotational flipping of the planet, and even then, this point is useless since our worlds sun has nothing to do with what Tsukuyomi does with the moon on Cray.

We also see the angle the moonlight is pointed during the attack with no sign of the moon to be moving.

21:00

Again, you are bringing up an already used point that just further supports me here. In one instance, the angle of the moonlight is pointed to be in front of the opponent Misaki was fighting.

Then a second later, the moon is behind both Tsukuyomi and the opponent Unit as she attacks with the moonlight. This blatantly shows the positions of the moon changed to completely different points.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Enough with this nonsense. The sun would not need to more for a rotational flipping of the planet, and even then, this point is useless since our worlds sun has nothing to do with what Tsukuyomi does with the moon on Cray.

If the planet flipped it would have cause considerable damage and destabilization. Which isn't shown to have happened.

Also idk why you keep mentioning our world's sun. It wouldn't have any affect on a visual projection

Again, you are bringing up an already used point that just further supports me here. In one instance, the angle of the moonlight is pointed to be in front of the opponent Misaki was fighting.

Then a second later, the moon is behind both Tsukuyomi and the opponent Unit as she attacks with the moonlight. This blatantly shows the positions of the moon changed to completely different points.

Or, logically. It never moved. Why would it move after the attack has happened?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If the planet flipped it would have cause considerable damage and destabilization. Which isn't shown to have happened.

No it wouldn't have? The rotation would be happening so abruptly and going back to it's original position that it would hardly cause the kind of damage your speculating.

Also idk why you keep mentioning our world's sun. It wouldn't have any affect on a visual projection

Because you keep bringing the sun back into this when it isn't a factor.

Or, logically. It never moved. Why would it move after the attack has happened?

Because the planet is then rotating back into it's prior position now that the move is done? Hell, that's more support for the feat than against.

The position of the moon blatantly changed no matter what, so something was moved. And everything in said scene points to the planet being rotated to get said position changing.

 

[Shmooply]

Gonna have to agree with Kukui and Griffin on this one.

 

[Quangotjokes]

No it wouldn't have? The rotation would be happening so abruptly and going back to it's original position that it would hardly cause the kind of damage your speculating.

So you say it turns 180 degrees, and then back 180 degrees so fast that it wouldn't cause damage. Yet there's no evidence of that happening, nor her having the ability to move the earth yet I'm the one speculating?

Because you keep bringing the sun back into this when it isn't a factor.

You're the one who mentioned day and night and evidence. The sun is definitely a factor.

Because the planet is then rotating back into it's prior position now that the move is done? Hell, that's more support for the feat than against.

The position of the moon blatantly changed no matter what, so something was moved. And everything in said scene points to the planet being rotated to get said position changing.

The moon never changed position. The only scan that shows the moon being in two different positions is inconsistent with the attack in the scene. Also, as you've stated yourself, there's multiple moons on cray.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Gonna have to agree with Kukui and Griffin on this one.

Me too, this is just arguing semantics and circular reasoning at this point imo.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Here's a few point's to note

1 - We see her legs and robe, hair and robe moving backward. So change of Moon position might simply be change of her own position due to her attacking. The fact we do not see it does not mean it is not possible as we saw there is some sort of movement from her going by her legs n clothes movement, it is less of an assumption to say she moved to attack while off-panel than to say the planet rotated off-panel, Occam's razor supports this assumption than the former of the planet or Moon being moved.

2 - It is shown in several shots that the image of the Moon just materializes behind her, not moves to her location. Such as in minute 14 of the first vid you posted, where iirc the Moon blatantly flat out disappears trees from sight so it is impossible for the Moon to have moved into the sky there then it wouldn't be on the sky, it would be on the ground since its blocking out trees from sight that where previously there lol.

3 - Even if the Moon was literally transported and it wasn't just artistic effect/illusion, no scene shows the movement of the Moon, all scenes show the Moon just appearing, or the Monster moving while the Moon is already there, thus making it an invalid calc as there is no proven feat of the Moon actually physically traversing any distance, at best we can assume it was warped there which is something that has no valid calc method.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So you say it turns 180 degrees, and then back 180 degrees so fast that it wouldn't cause damage. Yet there's no evidence of that happening, nor her having the ability to move the earth yet I'm the one speculating?

Again, these several day/night shifts that happen and show the moon in position whenever Tsukuyomi goes on the attack in many cases is far too consistent to be some randomly big coincedence. The fact it happens as part of her attacking phase shows it's her doing right then and there.

And shifting the time of day from day to night to showcase the moon IS evidence of moving the planet.

You're the one who mentioned day and night and evidence. The sun is definitely a factor.

It isn't, because rotating the planet itself isn't actually moving the sun. It wouldn't have anything to do with a rotational feat.

The moon never changed position. The only scan that shows the moon being in two different positions is inconsistent with the attack in the scene. Also, as you've stated yourself, there's multiple moons on cray.

It's not inconsistent just because you like to spam the word. The fact that the moon goes behind the opponent as Tsukuyomi finishes attacking indicates rotation. It was in front of the opponent moments earlier (proven by Tsukuyomi firing the moons light directly straight at the opponent Unit, meaning the moon HAS to be in a position thats in front of them) and then moments later, as she's finishing the attack, the moon is behind the attacked Unit.

That's a blatant changing of positions.

Here's a few point's to note

1 - We see her legs and robe, hair and robe moving backward. So change of Moon position might simply be change of her own position due to her attacking. The fact we do not see it does not mean it is not possible as we saw there is some sort of movement from her going by her legs n clothes movement, it is less of an assumption to say she moved to attack while off-panel than to say the planet rotated off-panel, Occam's razor supports this assumption than the former of the planet or Moon being moved.

First of all, again, this point just helps my point on the notion of rotation since if she is moving backward under those circumstances, and the moon is moving forward, that indicates rotation as the moon goes farther away from her.

Secondly, this point here on her changing her position literally makes no sense. She has no reason to be doing that when all she is doing is blasting the **** out of the opponent Unit. Why would she be randomly changing her own position? This also uses more assumptions as you are assuming she has some teleport like ability to do this, something Tsukuyomi has never demonstrated in any battle in the anime.

The moon going away from her and being behind her opponent she's attacking is simply an indication of rotation more than any other option you can think of.

2 - It is shown in several shots that the image of the Moon just materializes behind her, not moves to her location. Such as in minute 14 of the first vid you posted, where iirc the Moon blatantly flat out disappears trees from sight so it is impossible for the Moon to have moved into the sky there then it wouldn't be on the sky, it would be on the ground since its blocking out trees from sight that where previously there lol.

Literally have no idea what this point is in reference to, the first episode clip I posted has nothing to do with whatever this is talking about.

3 - Even if the Moon was literally transported and it wasn't just artistic effect/illusion, no scene shows the movement of the Moon, all scenes show the Moon just appearing, or the Monster moving while the Moon is already there, thus making it an invalid calc as there is no proven feat of the Moon actually physically traversing any distance, at best we can assume it was warped there which is something that has no valid calc method.

Downright hilarious to think that a battle happening in real time has any artistic effects in it (which already shows me that your supposed knowledge on this series isn't quite up to par as you like to make it out to be for you)

But, no, for the reason being the planet's rotation showing the moon. And even then, given the blatant fact that I already proved Tsukuyomi doesn't passively make the moon shown, and that she can battle in a daytime setting before the moon appears in her attacking phases, the context gives enough support to claim an extremely quick timeframe is the case instead of the moon just being "Warped" into battle.