Ainchase Ishmael Profile Revisions

[Solacis]

Disclaimer: Forum ate my original post so I'm just not going to bother with going as detailed into it as I originally intended.

Summary

Ain's profile shouldn't be using Portugeuse scans. That's dumb and defeats the purpose of linking scans on profiles to begin with, which is to fact-check and verify the legitimacy of what's being said on the profile. Ain's profile is also missing various scans for highly important on-profile statements, which gets worse once you realize that half the things being said on said profile have nothing to support them to begin with.

Statements with No Scans or Feats:

His true form is a spirit that resides beyond the physical plane, time and space, in the spirit realm

Ain will always return for as long as his mission is possible

Can attack (...) non-existent beings.

• No mention of what beings he's attacked that supposedly have non-existent physiology.

The corrupted power of creation turns things into nothingness, erasing it
AND
Can (...) turn targets into nothingness with Henir's power

• Not a single mention of "nothingness" in any of the skill descriptions related to Henir's power.
• As far as I can tell, this is the only source of there being Existence Erasure tied to Ain's Chaos powers, which in itself has run wild on this profile despite being completely unsubstantiated.

Can (...) rewrite events

• No example of past events that Ain has supposedly rewritten, or even a scan of a statement saying he could do so.

Henir's realm, which is an infinite void, unrestricted by space and time

• Again, no scans. This is especially important in this case because this has implications on his tiering and relation to other 2-A Elsword characters (mainly Add).

Can tear reality apart to reach Henir's realm. Can warp and corrupt reality.

• There are absolutely zero mentions of "reality" in any of Ain's skill descriptions or in-game backgrounds. This gets worse later on.

(All mentions of Entropy)

• Like above with "reality", there is no mention of "entropy" anywhere either.

Ain is the embodiment of (...) Entropy, Chaos, Corruption and Infinity, lacking any real form, creating avatars to interact with creation.

• First of all, Ain is only said to have become the Master of the Void, and a vestige of Chaos. Nothing says that he's become one with the Void or that he suddenly embodies all these concepts of "entropy" and "infinity", or that he lacks any real form, or that he creates avatars to interact with reality.
• What IS said is that he becomes a part of the Chaos power he wields, and that he's abandoned his old physical form granted to him by Ishmael and gave himself his own body. Ergo, he has a body, just that it's not the same as his old one. Furthermore, the reference to "

Exists since before the creation of spacetime and thus has it's own rules

Lacks any form of existence and is nonexistence itself.

Has become one with the infinite void at the beginning and ending of all things. Can erase all of creation just by showing his true self

• English scans or English-translated Korean scans are required. From what I've seen on the previous thread, even the translations of these scans don't line up with what's being claimed here.

Statements that are outright false or make no contextual sense:

Mid-Godly. Recovered from being erased from existence and removed from Space-Time. Even when reduced to a nonexistent being inside Henir's realm, Ain still wandered around until he came back.

• One: Ain was only erased on a physical level, as we know from Chapter 12 in Hamel that Ain was still perfectly capable of thought and even existed in a spiritual form.
• Two: Ain did not come back on his own power, but from Elsword remembering him despite it being impossible for him to have done so. So Ain wouldn't even have Regen.
• Three: There is no mention of Ain being reduced to nonexistence in Henir's realm, and if there is, the scan is missing.

The aspect of Extinction is the cause of all mortality

• Makes no contextual sense because there is no mention of "Extinction" anywhere related to Ain's powers, and if this is implying he can manipulate the concept of Extinction itself, that's not stated anywhere.

Chaos and Entropy are the very ideas of the destruction of physical and ethereal things, generating such phenomena

• There is nothing that says or implies that Ain is manipulating Chaos and Entropy on a conceptual level. On top of that, nothing in the game proves that these concepts are even Type 1, which is also being claimed on the profile.

Wavering Faith: (...) This allows Ain to passively corrupt and absorb the surrounding energy and use the corrupted power of creation/Henir's powers.

• No mention of Ain passively corrupting the surrounding energy. He only absorbs the surrounding energy and uses that energy to create Seeds of Chaos. I've even seen this statement be used to argue that he passively corrupts his surroundings themselves, rather than just the magical energy. It's ridiculous.

Alptraum: Ain corrupts the surrounding energy and absorbs it for himself, becoming immune to debuffs.

• No mention of becoming immune to debuffs in the skill description or effects.

Reflexion: (...)The spheres protect its conjurer or track down any hostile presence.

• No mention of the spheres protecting the conjurer in the skill description or effects.

Entfernen: Ain unleashes a torrent of dark energy from the ground, erasing the existence of anything caught in range.

• No mention of existence erasure in-game.

Ruler of the Abyss: (...) This passive grants complete control over the power and realm of Henir.

• No mention of granting complete control over Henir's realm, just the implication that he rules said realm through the name and his class description.

Nichts Feld: Ain's envelop himself with the realm of Henir (...) creating a barrier that erases anything that comes in contact with it.

• Again, no mention of existence erasure in-game.

Abgrund: Ain distorts and corrupts reality around himself, creating 8 Eyes of Henir out of the broken pieces of reality.

• No mention of reality manipulation in-game.

Leere: Ain materializes a Seed of Chaos in the fabric of reality that erases its victims. If the victims survive, they will get their powers erased.

• No mention of reality manipulation in-game. Also no mention of power null.
• All it does is inflict Silence, which in-game lasts a staggering 2 seconds. Even if the duration is game mechanics, the fact that it's a short limited-time effect is irrefutable.

Chaos Feld: Ain forces out the chaos from the ethereal realm to bring destruction to the physical realm, creating a pocket dimension isolated from the rest of the world.

• No in-game mention of pocket dimensions or worldly isolation.

Ende der Welt: (...) turning anything into nothingness.

• No in-game mention of turning things into nothingness. Only mentions bringing things into a realm of nothingness, which itself doesn't imply EE.

Chaos Barrier: (...) releases an aura that nullifies resistances and negates the regeneration of energy.

• No mention of complete resistance negation in-game. It only reduces resistance levels. The "100" listed under this effect isn't a percentage. That's not how resistance values work in Elsword.

Zerinnen: Ain discards his avatars and shows his true self: Nothingness, erasing all of creation by doing so.

• I've already brought up how Ain has no avatars.
• Doesn't even mention "true self", but rather "true form". As in, taking away the illusory form he normally uses, not doing away with false selves (avatars).

Conclusion

There's a lot of BS on this profile, and assuming that none of these have scans that I'm unaware of, the following changes would apply.

• Ain would lose:
  • Existence Erasure.
    (no scans or feats that explicitly show this ability)
  • Avatar Creation.
    (complete misunderstanding of Herrscher's lore)
  • Omnipresence and Abstract Existence.
    (no scans of Herrscher being intrinsically one with Henir's realm)
  • Higher-Dimensional Existence.
    (this one was never even proven to begin with)
  • Conceptual Manipulation.
    (no scans showing his chaos abilities are conceptual in nature)
  • Nonexistent Physiology.
    (no scans implying nonexistence)
  • Immortality (Types 3, 5, 8 and 9).
    (no regen means no type 3, no AE so no type 5, no scans supporting type 8, and no avatars means no type 9)
  • Acausality.
    (no scans to prove acausality)
  • Reality Warping.
    (no mention of reality-anything anywhere in-game)
  • Death Manipulation.
    (no proof to begin with)
  • Matter Manipulation.
    (never proven to begin with)
  • Astral Projection, Intangibility and Incorporeality.
    (no scans)
  • Regeneration.
    (complete misunderstanding of Ain's ephemeral nature in relation to the gods he's tied to)
  • Soul Manipulation.
    (no feats/scans)
  • Resistance to Soul Manipulation.
    (no feats/scans)

 

[Solacis]

This took way longer than it should have, no thanks to my shitty wifi today.

I didn't expect there to be this many issues, but I really should've expected it from a verse with no consistently-active supporters or even a verse page.

 

[Everything12]

Thank you. Yeah this page has had a problem with how reliable it is pointed out for some time. I'll wait to see if some of those people who are so interested in the Character come and reply before I say anything.

 

[Solacis]

Yeah, the main bulk of the issues on this page is the sheer amount of assumptions regarding the abilities attributed to Henir's void/chaos powers. I don't deny there's some level of fuckery going on with that, but that deserves a CRT all on its own.

That said, I don't think we'll be getting any Elsword supporters any time soon. As far as I know, all of them are mostly inactive. I put this up just so I can check whether there are any still around, and if not, I'll just get to working on the changes myself when I get the time, like I already have with Add's profiles.

 

[Everything12]

So do you guys still care enough about the Verse to reply here, or do you know who will?

@Tsubasa16 and @Veloxt1r0kore

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Agree

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Should contacting @SchroKatze as well since he's the one who made it, but i doubt he will respond as he has so much stuff to handle IRL

I'm gonna leave it to Tsubasa as i'm not fairly deep to Elsword lores and its power

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@SatoSwag and @Rikimarox2 can help as well, they are fairly active

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

• From what I've seen on the previous thread, even the translations of these scans don't line up with what's being claimed here.

Can confirm. First scan says something roughly like

"The Sovereign of Emptiness/Void That Exists At The End Of Everything

He who freed himself from everything that chained down the gods,
After learning how to reach true salvation,
Ain went in the direction all beings should.
Reborn as the Sovereign of True Emptiness/Void after escaping the prison of his physical body,
He now leads all creatures to the infinite emptiness/void he's become."

Second says:

"Ends the world and creates a totally empty space. Deals massive damage to enemies in the area."

 

[Tsubasa16]

Okay so, i will try to reply to the points made, at least using the conclusion to make it easier for me lol, so might take a bit until i compile everything, some of what Henir's power can do comes from the actual Lore dialogue instead of from Ain himself and so. Granted i don't know much how to reply to this kind of thing so might be a bit messy lol

 

[Tsubasa16]

Currently writting the explantions reply, but will take a while to post cause i am bit busy right now.

 

[Solacis]

Another thing I noticed. Everyone that scales to Solace is considered SoL, yet there's no link to anything that shows Solace displaying that level of speed. Solace's light beams don't display the minimum number of attributes to meet the criteria for being considered real light.

 

[Tsubasa16]

Statements with No Scans or Feats:

His true form is a spirit that resides beyond the physical plane, time and space, in the spirit realm

Ain will always return for as long as his mission is possible

Can attack (...) non-existent beings.

• No mention of what beings he's attacked that supposedly have non-existent physiology.

The beings are refering to Henir creatures i presume, but i never really agreed to it since those being are Corrupted rather than nonexistant, and i am not sure myself if is really any statement of them being so. It is only stated that the Henir corrupted beings are "abstract life forms" as far as i know.

The second point is because Ain's existence is tied to the "Mission of Restoring the El" and he would only fully dissapear when the mission fullfiled (His existence is also kinda tied to Elsword). The only reason he keeps existing until now is because when the El was restored, his existence was "taken" by the Creator God Elria from Ishamel.

The corrupted power of creation turns things into nothingness, erasing it
AND
Can (...) turn targets into nothingness with Henir's power

• Not a single mention of "nothingness" in any of the skill descriptions related to Henir's power.
• As far as I can tell, this is the only source of there being Existence Erasure tied to Ain's Chaos powers, which in itself has run wild on this profile despite being completely unsubstantiated.

To be fair, those are actually mentioned. Herrscher's english background directly mentions it: "sending his enemies back into nothingness with endless chaos." (Aka Existence Erasure). As well as having how Henir is the Realm of Nothingness several times.

One thing i guess you did not get is the fact that this "Chaos" is a aspect of Henir power, it is not something separate from it that only Ain has, it is a sub-set that is part of Henir itself. That is mentioned both in-lore as well as in some of his skills.

Also, it is quite literally stated by Glave here in the Elrianode Story that: "Henir symbolizes infinity, but at the same time, the power to turn everything into nothing."

Additionally, in a translated form korean version of one of Ain's skills, Entfernen, it reads as soemthing along the lines of: " Give shape to the twisted power of creation. The shaped power swallow and remove everything within radius."

And there is more much mentions of Ain doing stuff like "turning things into nothing" and "returning something to the original state of nothigness" on Apostasia's Job Change Quests, as well, which i can say if necessary, tho i don't think it is.

Honestly for you to say that "there is no mention of nothigness and existence erasure about Henir" it just looks like you didn't look enough about Henir and the such, and only read Ain's skills and nothing more.

Can (...) rewrite events

• No example of past events that Ain has supposedly rewritten, or even a scan of a statement saying he could do so.

Not exactly sure where that comes from either. I presume it is related to his "Existence tied to his mission" thing, but what actually happens that when Ain starts to dissapear, it affects those who knew him by making it so it was like he never existed, but i don't that doesn't actually change events, just the memories of the ones involved.

Henir's realm, which is an infinite void, unrestricted by space and time

• Again, no scans. This is especially important in this case because this has implications on his tiering and relation to other 2-A Elsword characters (mainly Add).

I have explained this in another discussion, but in resume:

Henir's realm itself is quite literally described as being "the end of all things" (as well as "the begining of all things" in Apostasia's Background) and "the destination all existence must turn to" in Ain's Herrscher Story Background, which can be read here (the second being only stated in the Korean one, which i can provide if needed). And considering Elsword verse is 2-B to 2-A, that makes Henir's realm as such. Henir is also very clearly implied to encompasses all of existence while simulteneosly being outside of it (Which is referenced on how once Ain becomes one with it, he achieves complete omnipresence, existing everywhere and nowhere at the same time, which again is mentioned in his background on one of the links above).

Henir's nature as a Infinite Void comes from the fact that, along what i mentioned above, Glave has stated that Henir's Realm represnts the pure aspect of Henir (the god)'s aspects, one of those being the concept of Infinity. Which i have given in one of the links above to the Elrianode Story.

Additionally, Ain himself says Henir is "the eternal void" in his Herrscher job quote (which again can be read above)

Can tear reality apart to reach Henir's realm. Can warp and corrupt reality.

• There are absolutely zero mentions of "reality" in any of Ain's skill descriptions or in-game backgrounds. This gets worse later on.

Couldn't find any direct mentions to the word "reality", at least in the english version, either, tho i could have missed something honestly. Closest to that i can see is that Ende Der Welt mentioning how he can "rip the dimensions apart to open a fissure to the inner reaches of Henir". Henir's power at least visually does look like it warps reality, seeing how things affected by it look like. I think it is also directly mentioned Henir warps the enviroment but i would need to check more.

Late Edit: After looking into it further, i actually found a mention to reality warping from his skills in the english version. Here (the page that was made when Apostasia and Lofty-Wanderer were released in NA) and here (description of his skills on the official site) it contains a short description of the skills and what they do, and on both his Abgrund does actually says the whole reality thing. So yeah, seems the description of his "distoring and corrupting reality" is indeed true ironically lol.

(All mentions of Entropy)

• Like above with "reality", there is no mention of "entropy" anywhere either.

Same case as above, didn't find any direct reference to Entropy in the english version, would have to check the korean skills and so to see it further.

Ain is the embodiment of (...) Entropy, Chaos, Corruption and Infinity, lacking any real form, creating avatars to interact with creation.

• First of all, Ain is only said to have become the Master of the Void, and a vestige of Chaos. Nothing says that he's become one with the Void or that he suddenly embodies all these concepts of "entropy" and "infinity", or that he lacks any real form, or that he creates avatars to interact with reality.

Ain having become the embodiment of Henir's comes from A) The "item" which is used to advance to the 3rd Job Classes are always tied to and represent the reason why the characters have ascended to their 3rd Job, and Herrscher item is called "Incarnate of Void", meaning that for Ain to go from Apostasia to Herrscher, he became the embodiment of the Void (Henir's realm). B) It is stated on Herrscher's background lore (which again, i have already linked above) that once he was reborn as the "Master of the Void", Ain became omnipresent, simulteonesly existing everywhere and nowhere. Which would make no sense if he didn't become one with Henir's realm, as the realm is what has this nature, and by becoming one with it, he would also attains this state.

• What IS said is that he becomes a part of the Chaos power he wields, and that he's abandoned his old physical form granted to him by Ishmael and gave himself his own body. Ergo, he has a body, just that it's not the same as his old one. Furthermore, the reference to "

The english version is not as clear about it as the Korean one actually, but the english one does mention that Ain has actually straight up has abandoned his physical body and just reclaims it in order to have some sort of physical interaction

The Korean on it is quite literally stated that Ain has "shed off and discarded his physical body" and the body is merely now a physical shell which he controls

One thing the Korean version also points out that the English one does not is that the "Vestige of Chaos" is NOT refering to Ain himself, but the physical shell that he now puppetiers, that is what is now only a Vestige of Chaos. It even outright states that even the shell itself "can no longer be called an existence of this world".

Ain not having a physical form is already referenced on his skill Zerinnen, where he straight up "discarts" the physical shell and shows his "true form".

Here's a translation of the Korean version of his background for you to check yourself.

Exists since before the creation of spacetime and thus has it's own rules

Lacks any form of existence and is nonexistence itself.

Has become one with the infinite void at the beginning and ending of all things. Can erase all of creation just by showing his true self

• English scans or English-translated Korean scans are required. From what I've seen on the previous thread, even the translations of these scans don't line up with what's being claimed here.

The first point is refering to Ain being one with Henir's realm, it is stated that Henir's realm predates the God Elria's creation (Existence) and that Elria used some of Henir's power in order to create it. Stated by Glave in the Elrianode Story which i also already linked above.

The second point is, again, assuming that Ain as Herrscher has become one with Henir's realm.

the "infinite void at the beginning and ending of all things" i have explained already above.

 

[Tsubasa16]

The reply to the first part of the post is done, sorry if there's anything lacking since i am not too good with those kind of big reply lol.

Will be making the explanation reply of the other part now.

 

[Tsubasa16]

Also further some things i said in the first post, one thing i forgot to mention on the first part of the post also that i notice where i am writting the second one, is that Apostasia's English Background is actually quite different from his Translated Korean Background (Here's a translation of it done by the El wiki staff back in the day,). In it, a lot more stuff about Henir's Realm and Existence Erasure is stated.

For instance, stuff like: "Enveloped by the chaos, Ain faces its core once again. But he could feel that it wasn't as unstable as it was last time. Within the end of this chaos, Ain realized that the creation of everything, from the beginning to the end, is bound to return to nothing." (Refering to how everything/all of existence is bound to return to Henir/nothing) and "In the storm of chaos, within its center, Ain becomes the absolute ruler of the Void who returns everything to its perfect state: nothing."

 

[Tsubasa16]

Mid-Godly. Recovered from being erased from existence and removed from Space-Time. Even when reduced to a nonexistent being inside Henir's realm, Ain still wandered around until he came back.

• One: Ain was only erased on a physical level, as we know from Chapter 12 in Hamel that Ain was still perfectly capable of thought and even existed in a spiritual form.
• Two: Ain did not come back on his own power, but from Elsword remembering him despite it being impossible for him to have done so. So Ain wouldn't even have Regen.
• Three: There is no mention of Ain being reduced to nonexistence in Henir's realm, and if there is, the scan is missing.

That i mostly agree with. Base Ain would have Low-Godly Regen via Immortality Type 8 instead. Henir erases stuff (as i mentioned in the first part of the post) but not everything it does is erase.

However, Ain does mention that due to the damage from the El Explosion, he the lacked the power to sustain his own existence. Which could mean he does have at least Low-Godly Regen on his own, but was unable to regen himself due to the El Explosion

The aspect of Extinction is the cause of all mortality

• Makes no contextual sense because there is no mention of "Extinction" anywhere related to Ain's powers, and if this is implying he can manipulate the concept of Extinction itself, that's not stated anywhere.

Henir being related to Extinction is, once more, stated in the Elrianode Story by Glave. He states that one of Henir's aspects is the concept of Extinction, and that is the very source of Mortality and the reason why beings die.

Chaos and Entropy are the very ideas of the destruction of physical and ethereal things, generating such phenomena

• There is nothing that says or implies that Ain is manipulating Chaos and Entropy on a conceptual level. On top of that, nothing in the game proves that these concepts are even Type 1, which is also being claimed on the profile.

The Concepts that Henir's realm represents (Those being Infinity, Chaos and Nothingness/Void) are Type 1 because they fit within the criteria of it. Henir's concepts both govern and predate reality, as Henir's realm both existed prior to it and some of it's power were used in it's creation, which is again mentioned by Glave above.

Wavering Faith: (...) This allows Ain to passively corrupt and absorb the surrounding energy and use the corrupted power of creation/Henir's powers.

• No mention of Ain passively corrupting the surrounding energy. He only absorbs the surrounding energy and uses that energy to create Seeds of Chaos. I've even seen this statement be used to argue that he passively corrupts his surroundings themselves, rather than just the magical energy. It's ridiculous.

That i agree with, but only when it comes to this specific skill regarding the energy part. One of his other skills, Recreation, mentions that is able to outright absorb and convert energy. Doing that is how he creates the Seeds of Chaos but that doesn't change the fact he is indeed able to absorb and corrupt energy without it having anything to do with the Seeds of Chaos, which is stated that he does in some skills like Alptraum.

Corrupting the surroundings is something Henir does very clearly and visually does tho (just look at anything in the game that is affected by Henir power), which i mentioned in the above post.

Alptraum: Ain corrupts the surrounding energy and absorbs it for himself, becoming immune to debuffs.

• No mention of becoming immune to debuffs in the skill description or effects.

Yeah, what the skills does mentions is that he becomes "Immunity to all disabling status.", which i thing includes stuff like Stun and this kind of Status effect.

Reflexion: (...)The spheres protect its conjurer or track down any hostile presence.

• No mention of the spheres protecting the conjurer in the skill description or effects.

The spheres doing that is something that is seen in-game rather than in the description actually, the Spheres surround and orbit Ain (which is not mentioned in the description), thus protecting him.

Entfernen: Ain unleashes a torrent of dark energy from the ground, erasing the existence of anything caught in range.

• No mention of existence erasure in-game.

Mentioned it in the other part of the post, while the English version does not say it, the translated from Korean version mentions it "shallowing and removing everything within it's radius"

The english version does say it "Consumes everything within it's wake" which considering the above context, likely would mean consuming as in "consuming it's existence".

Ruler of the Abyss: (...) This passive grants complete control over the power and realm of Henir.

• No mention of granting complete control over Henir's realm, just the implication that he rules said realm through the name and his class description.

Ain becoming the "true ruler of Henir's realm" would mean he has....complete control over the Realm.

Also, Apostasia's Korean Background (which is much bigger than the English version), does outright says that "In the storm of chaos, within its center, Ain becomes the absolute ruler of the Void who returns everything to its perfect state: nothing."

He being the absolute ruler of the Void means he has complete control over the Realm.

Nichts Feld: Ain's envelop himself with the realm of Henir (...) creating a barrier that erases anything that comes in contact with it.

• Again, no mention of existence erasure in-game.

Already replied to the whole Existence Erasure thing several times above. This skills in specific truly has nothing to do with that tho.

Abgrund: Ain distorts and corrupts reality around himself, creating 8 Eyes of Henir out of the broken pieces of reality.

• No mention of reality manipulation in-game.

Agreed yeah, the reality stuff i mentioned in the first post.

Late Edit: After looking into it further, i actually found this description is actually accurate. Here (the page that was made when Apostasia and Loftty-Wanderer were released in NA) and here (description of his skills on the official site) it contains a short description of the skills and what they do, and on them his Abgrund skill is exactly that one, funnily enough. It is not the text used for the skill in-game but is was actually used to officially describe what it does.

Leere: Ain materializes a Seed of Chaos in the fabric of reality that erases its victims. If the victims survive, they will get their powers erased.

• No mention of reality manipulation in-game. Also no mention of power null.
• All it does is inflict Silence, which in-game lasts a staggering 2 seconds. Even if the duration is game mechanics, the fact that it's a short limited-time effect is irrefutable.

Agreed as well yeah.

Chaos Feld: Ain forces out the chaos from the ethereal realm to bring destruction to the physical realm, creating a pocket dimension isolated from the rest of the world.

• No in-game mention of pocket dimensions or worldly isolation.

The pocket dimension isolated from the world is actually something mentioned in the Korean-Translated Description of the Skill.

Ende der Welt: (...) turning anything into nothingness.

• No in-game mention of turning things into nothingness. Only mentions bringing things into a realm of nothingness, which itself doesn't imply EE.

Again, i have explained the whole Existence Erasure thing previously.

The skill however never mentions " bringing things into a realm of nothingness", it outright states that it "enguls everything with the Void" which i am pretty would mean EE. Also, the skill mentions "opening a fissure to the nether reaches of Henir", and that has actually been refered to in the Lore. Glave stated that if that were to happen, the world would be instantly dissappear/be erased.

Chaos Barrier: (...) releases an aura that nullifies resistances and negates the regeneration of energy.

• No mention of complete resistance negation in-game. It only reduces resistance levels. The "100" listed under this effect isn't a percentage. That's not how resistance values work in Elsword.

The thing with Resistance in Elsword is confusing yeah, since they are not a percentage but rather a flat number, so it's hard to quantify that.

Zerinnen: Ain discards his avatars and shows his true self: Nothingness, erasing all of creation by doing so.

• I've already brought up how Ain has no avatars.
• Doesn't even mention "true self", but rather "true form". As in, taking away the illusory form he normally uses, not doing away with false selves (avatars).

Mentioned above the thing with Ain being non-physical and only using the body as a shell/puppet. Him not being a physical entity anymore is quite explicitly stated.

Also funnily enough, the Korean version (it was not translated by the Elwiki staff unfortunately) does say "true self" rather than "true form", but it says something along the lines of "He opens a space full of emptiness and nothingness, and reveals his true self in it."

 

[Tsubasa16]

Conclusion

There's a lot of BS on this profile, and assuming that none of these have scans that I'm unaware of, the following changes would apply.

• Ain would lose:
  • Existence Erasure.
    (no scans or feats that explicitly show this ability)

Mentioned this a whole lot.

• Avatar Creation.
  (complete misunderstanding of Herrscher's lore)

That i agree, and i have explained above as well.

• Omnipresence and Abstract Existence.
  (no scans of Herrscher being intrinsically one with Henir's realm)

Herrscher being Omnipresent is, quite literally, stated on his Background Lore which i linked several times. Him being one with Henir's realm i also something i mentioned along with it.

• Higher-Dimensional Existence.
  (this one was never even proven to begin with)

Not sure where this comes from either, probably because Henir has 4th Structures floating on it. But i don't think that would be enough to warrant it.

• Conceptual Manipulation.
  (no scans showing his chaos abilities are conceptual in nature)

Also explained about Henir's concepts above, having complete control over Henir's Realm would also grant control over the concepts it embodies (Infinity, Nothigness and Chaos).

• Nonexistent Physiology.
  (no scans implying nonexistence)

Related to the abstract existence point above.

• Immortality (Types 3, 5, 8 and 9).
  (no regen means no type 3, no AE so no type 5, no scans supporting type 8, and no avatars means no type 9)

Personally thing he should have Immortality (Type 9) and Low-Godly regen from what i mentioned previously.

• Acausality.
  (no scans to prove acausality)

Agree.

• Reality Warping.
  (no mention of reality-anything anywhere in-game)

Mentioned about that before as well.

Late Edit: After looking into it further, i actually found a mention to reality warping from his skills in the english version. Here (the page that was made when Apostasia and Loftty-Wanderer were released in NA) and here (description of his skills on the official site) it contains a short description of the skills and what they do, and on them his Abgrund does actually says the whole reality thing. So yeah, seems the description of his "distoring and corrupting reality" is indeed true ironically lol.

• Death Manipulation.
  (no proof to begin with)

Explained the Exctinction/Death thing previously.

• Matter Manipulation.
  (never proven to begin with)

I agree, it'd assume the closest to that would be the fact Henir power corrupts and twists stuff.

• Astral Projection, Intangibility and Incorporeality.
  (no scans)

Intangibility and Incorporeality would be from the fact that he is, again, outright stated as not being a physical entity anymore as Herrscher.

• Regeneration.
  (complete misunderstanding of Ain's ephemeral nature in relation to the gods he's tied to)

Mentioned above

• Soul Manipulation.
  (no feats/scans)
• Resistance to Soul Manipulation.
  (no feats/scans)

I guess at least the Resistance to Soul Manipulation was added because some of enemies in the have soul-related powers? not sure myself.

 

[Tsubasa16]

So, i am done with my replies and explanations. Once again sorry if it is messy cause i am not used to making this kind of big reply and so, so feel free to point out if i missed anything.

One thing that baffles me tho is the whole "Existence Erasure is never mentioned anywhere"? which is honestly quite blatant. As i showed it has several mentions (There are even more mentions about it than the ones i stated in the first part of the post, in both Apostasia and Herrscher's Job Change Quests, which i can show if needed) and can be seen with a quick look over Ain's Herrscher Path and the In-game stories that mention Henir's Realm.

 

[Solacis]

Ok, tackling these one post at a time.

The beings are refering to Henir creatures i presume, but i never really agreed to it since those being are Corrupted rather than nonexistant, and i am not sure myself if is really any statement of them being so. It is only stated that the Henir corrupted beings are "abstract life forms" as far as i know.

The second point is because Ain's existence is tied to the "Mission of Restoring the El" and he would only fully dissapear when the mission fullfiled (His existence is also kinda tied to Elsword). The only reason he keeps existing until now is because when the El was restored, his existence was "taken" by the Creator God Elria from Ishamel.

• We know that he exists for the sole purpose of his mission, but that doesn't qualify for Type 8 unless he explicitly returns by his own power under the stated criteria of his mission being possible, which isn't shown. There's also no showings of him losing his existence (as in, not metaphorically, but actually losing his mind, body and soul) when his mission is failed.

To be fair, those are actually mentioned. Herrscher's english background directly mentions it: "sending his enemies back into nothingness with endless chaos." (Aka Existence Erasure). As well as having how Henir is the Realm of Nothingness several times.

• Exactly, Henir's realm being called a realm of nothingness by itself does not qualify it for being actual nothingness in the sense that anything sent there is erased. In that sense, "sending enemies into nothingness" would mean sending enemies to Henir's realm, and not actually erasing them. We also know that Henir's realm isn't even technically an empty void, because it has its own creatures and structures that aren't specified to be of non-existent physiology as seen in the Labyrinth of Ruin.

One thing i guess you did not get is the fact that this "Chaos" is a aspect of Henir power, it is not something separate from it that only Ain has, it is a sub-set that is part of Henir itself. That is mentioned both in-lore as well as in some of his skills.

Also, it is quite literally stated by Glave here in the Elrianode Story that: "Henir symbolizes infinity, but at the same time, the power to turn everything into nothing."

• Symbolizing something doesn't necessarily imply actually doing that thing. Henir can symbolize infinity and erasure, but unless he's a conceptual embodiment of those concepts, it can't be assumed he is actually infinite, or that his power can actually erase the mind, body and soul.

Additionally, in a translated form korean version of one of Ain's skills, Entfernen, it reads as soemthing along the lines of: " Give shape to the twisted power of creation. The shaped power swallow and remove everything within radius."

• That doesn't really imply existence erasure. I can remove everything in my room and not erase them from existence.

And there is more much mentions of Ain doing stuff like "turning things into nothing" and "returning something to the original state of nothigness" on Apostasia's Job Change Quests, as well, which i can say if necessary, tho i don't think it is.

Honestly for you to say that "there is no mention of nothigness and existence erasure about Henir" it just looks like you didn't look enough about Henir and the such, and only read Ain's skills and nothing more.

• "Turning things into nothing" and "returning things to their original state of nothingness" are much more blatant about it, but unless this "nothingness" is specified to also include a lack of mind and soul, then it'd be nothing more than the most baseline of EE, which is purely physical destruction.
• I specified "nothing in the skill descriptions". I made it rather clear I only looked at the skill descriptions, or else why would I be asking for scans?

Not exactly sure where that comes from either. I presume it is related to his "Existence tied to his mission" thing, but what actually happens that when Ain starts to dissapear, it affects those who knew him by making it so it was like he never existed, but i don't that doesn't actually change events, just the memories of the ones involved.

• So he can't rewrite past events.

Henir's realm itself is quite literally described as being "the end of all things" (as well as "the begining of all things" in Apostasia's Background) and "the destination all existence must turn to" in Ain's Herrscher Story Background, which can be read here (the second being only stated in the Korean one, which i can provide if needed). And considering Elsword verse is 2-B to 2-A, that makes Henir's realm as such. Henir is also very clearly implied to encompasses all of existence while simulteneosly being outside of it (Which is referenced on how once Ain becomes one with it, he achieves complete omnipresence, existing everywhere and nowhere at the same time, which again is mentioned in his background on one of the links above).

Henir's nature as a Infinite Void comes from the fact that, along what i mentioned above, Glave has stated that Henir's Realm represnts the pure aspect of Henir (the god)'s aspects, one of those being the concept of Infinity. Which i have given in one of the links above to the Elrianode Story.

Additionally, Ain himself says Henir is "the eternal void" in his Herrscher job quote (which again can be read above)

• Being the beginning and end of all things calls back to it being the source of creation and thus the place creation will one day return to, but that doesn't say anything about its size relative to creation itself.
  Instead, rather than being separate from time and space like is written on the profile, it's far more likely that Henir's realm is the rift that exists between different parallel worlds. After all, the original name for the Labyrinth of Ruin was "Labyrinth of Time and Space", and let's not forget about "Henir's Time and Space" that Glave is the Administrator of. Furthermore, Add's Mad Paradox path shows signs of Henir's corruption (the dark-colored sclera) which can also be found on Hennon, who we also know is corrupted by Henir.
• Henir embodying infinity (even if it was in a conceptual way, which still isn't proven) does not make Henir's realm of infinite size by itself. It being called eternal also just means it won't expire with time, which applies to any normal timeline anyway.

Couldn't find any direct mentions to the word "reality" (at least in the english version) either, tho i could have missed something honestly. Closest to that i can see is that Ende Der Welt mentioning how he can "rip the dimensions apart to open a fissure to the inner reaches of Henir". Henir's power at least visually does look like it warps reality, seeing how things affected by it look like. I think it is also directly mentioned Henir warps the enviroment but i would need to check more.

• I also think it was a mis-wording of Ende der Welt's effects. The original maker of the profile probably forgot it was an assumption and ran with it.

Ain having become the embodiment of Henir's comes from
A) The "item" which is used to advance to the 3rd Job Classes are always tied to and represent the reason why the characters have ascended to their 3rd Job, and Herrscher item is called "Incarnate of Void", meaning that for Ain to go from Apostasia to Herrscher, he became the embodiment of the Void (Henir's realm).
B) It is stated on Herrscher's background lore (which again, i have already linked above) that once he was reborn as the "Master of the Void", Ain became omnipresent, simulteonesly existing everywhere and nowhere. Which would make no sense if he didn't become one with Henir's realm, as the realm is what has this nature, and by becoming one with it, he would also attains this state.

• That only works if we take the name literally, which can only be valid if we have other evidence of him becoming the Void incarnate besides just the item.
• That only works if Henir's void is considered omnipresent to begin with, which is difficult to argue for considering it's always treated separately from Elrios and the Demon World, especially in Labyrinth of Ruin which explicitly says it exists between Elrios and the Demon World. That said, I don't disagree with the Omnipresence, or rather, it should be Nigh-Omnipresence, seeing as Glave is also the same way on top of his connection to Henir. Unless Henir's realm is actually said to exist outside the natural flow of time, then Henir-based Omnipresence would be localized to a singular timeline; ergo, Nigh-Omnipresence.

The english version is not as clear about it as the Korean one actually, but the english one does mention that Ain has actually straight up has abandoned his physical body and just reclaims it in order to have some sort of physical interaction

The Korean on it is quite literally stated that Ain has "shed off and discarded his physical body" and the body is merely now a physical shell which he controls

One thing the Korean version also points out that the English one does not is that the "Vestige of Chaos" is NOT refering to Ain himself, but the physical shell that he now puppetiers, that is what is now only a Vestige of Chaos. It even outright states that even the shell itself "can no longer be called an existence of this world".

Ain not having a physical form is already referenced on his skill Zerinnen, where he straight up "discarts" the physical shell and shows his "true form".

Here's a translation of the Korean version of his background for you to check yourself.

• Alright, so the KR version is much more blatant about it. It'd be better to have used that scan to begin with. However, it should be made clear that he is specifically only using his old body as a physical shell. He's not actually making the avatars, but rather, possessing his old body.

The first point is refering to Ain being one with Henir's realm, it is stated that Henir's realm predates the God Elria's creation (Existence) and that Elria used some of Henir's power in order to create it. Stated by Glave in the Elrianode Story which i also already linked above.

The second point is, again, assuming that Ain as Herrscher has become one with Henir's realm.

the "infinite void at the beginning and ending of all things" i have explained already above.

• So it needs to be further proven that Ain is properly one with Henir's realm. That said, existing before Elrios does not mean Henir's realm predated space-time itself. Considering Elrios is separate from the Demon World and yet both exist within the same timeline, it's clear that Elrios and space-time aren't synonymous. Furthermore, considering the Labyrinth of Ruin exists per timeline rather than being a singular space across the entire multiverse, then it's made even more clear that Henir exists only as far as the local timeline, and not on a 2-B/2-A scale.

 

[Tsubasa16]

Regarding Henir's realm, iirc it stated that Henir's Time and Space has it's "own rules of time and space" separate from the rest of the world (it think it was mentioned in a tooltip back when Henir's dungeon was released, not entirely sure), which means that Henir's "Space and Time" is something separate from the Multiverse's spacetime. Glave also mentions that the "Henir's Time and Space" which he administers is merely a fraction of the inner part of Henir's realm.

The description of the current Henir's Space and Time dungeon also mentions it "having no limitations/not being limited by time and space", which would further show the fact that the kind of "Space and Time" it has is something completely different than the normal space-time the realms adhere to.

Ain having become the embodiment of Henir's comes from
A) The "item" which is used to advance to the 3rd Job Classes are always tied to and represent the reason why the characters have ascended to their 3rd Job, and Herrscher item is called "Incarnate of Void", meaning that for Ain to go from Apostasia to Herrscher, he became the embodiment of the Void (Henir's realm).
B) It is stated on Herrscher's background lore (which again, i have already linked above) that once he was reborn as the "Master of the Void", Ain became omnipresent, simulteonesly existing everywhere and nowhere. Which would make no sense if he didn't become one with Henir's realm, as the realm is what has this nature, and by becoming one with it, he would also attains this state.

• That only works if we take the name literally, which can only be valid if we have other evidence of him becoming the Void incarnate besides just the item.
• That only works if Henir's void is considered omnipresent to begin with, which is difficult to argue for considering it's always treated separately from Elrios and the Demon World, especially in Labyrinth of Ruin which explicitly says it exists between Elrios and the Demon World. That said, I don't disagree with the Omnipresence, or rather, it should be Nigh-Omnipresence, seeing as Glave is also the same way on top of his connection to Henir. Unless Henir's realm is actually said to exist outside the natural flow of time, then Henir-based Omnipresence would be localized to a singular timeline; ergo, Nigh-Omnipresence.

Henir's realm being "Omnipresent" is not really something "dificult to argue" at all? Elria used it in order to create the Material World (and by extention the Demon World), and Glave even mentions how it directly influences them, so by logic Henir's realm still somehow exists within them anyway, like i mentioned it would both encompasses them while simulteaneosly being outside of them.

I also mentioned the "Henir having it's own kind of time and space" above yeah.

 

[Solacis]

Regarding Henir's realm, iirc it stated that Henir's realm has it's "own rules of time and space" separate from the rest of the world (it think it was mentioned in a tooltip back when Henir's dungeon was released, not entirely sure), which means that Henir's "Space and Time" is something separate from the Multiverse's spacetime. Glave also mentions that the "Henir's Time and Space" dungeon which he administers is merely a fraction of the inner part of Henir's realm.

The description of the current Henir's Space and Time dungeon also mentions it "having no limitations/not being limited by time and space", which would further show the fact that the kind of "Space and Time" it has is something completely different than the normal space-time the realms adhere to.

Not being limited by time and space does not mean it's separate from time and space. It just means it has different rules, which still works with many worlds theory. It would have to be explicitly said that Henir transcends time and space entirely for it to be considered separate.

Henir's realm being "Omnipresent" is not really something "dificult to argue" at all? Elria used it in order to create the Material World (and by extention the Demon World), and Glave even mentions how it directly influences them, so by logic Henir's realm still somehow exists within them anyway, like i mentioned it would both encompasses them while simulteaneosly being outside of them.

I also mentioned the "Henir having it's own kind of time and space" above yeah.

Elria only used Chaos to create Elrios. Nothing says otherwise. Not to mention that the one who said it, Glave, specified "this world", where he considers the Demon World as separate from Elrios based on other dialogue where he called the ESP foolish for attempting to go to the Demon World, which he considered more dangerous than Henir's realm.

In addition to that, Elria only used Chaos a power from Henir to do create. She didn't extend the reach of Henir's realm to create Elrios, she used Henir's power, which originates from Henir's realm. Influence also does not imply location. It just means the power from Henir can affect Elrios, which we already know. It doesn't say that Henir is encompassing Elrios and the Demon World, whereas we're told flat-out that Henir exists between Elrios and the Demon World.

 

[Tsubasa16]

"Not being limited by time and space does not mean it's separate from time and space. It just means it has different rules"

That's kinda what i am saying, the "Henir's Time and Space" Glave manages is something different that has it's own rules, it's not the same kind of space-time the worlds have and adhere to. Also, i don't see how "not being limited by/having no limitations of space and time" would only mean it has different rules? it not being limited by time and space should mean that it, at very least, is not limited to a single timeline, since being limited to a single timeline would mean it is somehow limited by time and space, and that is something which is even implied and i will mention later on.

And more important than that even, as i stated before but i think you did not notice, "Henir's Time and Space" is in actuality a small fraction of Henir's Realm that Glave administers (as Glave points out himself when asked by Raven), it is not even actually refering to something that permeates the enterity of Henir's Realm and is specifically stated as just being merely a fraction of it, which means that even this weird kind of "Space-Time" is merely only a part of this fraction of Henir's Realm.

One thing to point out as well is that in this small fraction called "Henir's Time and Space", past, present and future are meaningless and interchangeable. One of the points of the portion Glave administers is the fact you can face enemies you faced in the past as well as enemies you will still face in the future, meaning they all converge on it.

"She didn't extend the reach of Henir's realm to create Elrios, she used Henir's power, which originates from Henir's realm. Influence also does not imply location."

Again, because of being reborn as the "Master of Void", Herrscher is outright stated to exist "everywhere and nowhere simultaenously", which just flat out confirms that, in one way or the other, Henir's Realm or at very least, Henir's power, is present across both all of creation as well as outside of it, whether you agree to that or not.

"whereas we're told flat-out that Henir exists between Elrios and the Demon World."

That is not stated at all, i guess you're getting that from the Labyrinth of Ruin's description since you said earlier: "especially in Labyrinth of Ruin which explicitly says it exists between Elrios and the Demon World." However, that is not what the description of the stage says at all. It says that "The El Search Party steps foot into Henir's Labyrinth (specifying it being a specific "location" within Henir's Realm instead of the realm as a whole), that connects between Elrios and the Demon Realm" and "The El Search party steps foot into the Labyrinth of Ruin to head towards the Demon Realm". What it is saying is that this specific part of Henir's Realm, which is called "Labyrinth of Ruin", connects Elrios with the Demon World, nothing more than that. Nowhere is it saying that "the entirety of Henir's Realm only exists between Elrios and the Demon World", it is saying that this very specific portion of Henir's Realm allows you to travel from one to the other, that's all.

Also regarding the "Furthermore, Add's Mad Paradox path shows signs of Henir's corruption (the dark-colored sclera) which can also be found on Hennon, who we also know is corrupted by Henir." thing you mentioned, i don't really understand what that was supposed to mean? I mean, if Mad Paradox Path was really affected by Henir corruption due to his space-time stuff, wouldn't that only show that Henir is able to reach across multiple timelines? MP Path Add never directly comes in contact with Henir's Realm and he only directly comes in contact with Henir stuff when he already has the the dark-colored sclera and is constantly traveling across timelines, yet he was still somehow affected and corrupted by it? If that is indeed the case it would only show Henir affects and is present even in the very essence of space-time itself, which would mean it is not restrained to a single timeline.

One thing to point out as well, is that on Mad Paradox's Story Quest, the moment Add reaches a specific timeline and goes to the Elrianode Cave, Glave appears to warn him that there is no going back if he goes on, showing that this Glave somehow knows exactly who this specific version of Add is and knows exactly what is going to happen to him when he enters the cave and does the experiment to become Mad Paradox (which Add himself points out later as he does the experiment), which implies that Glave himself, due to his role as Administrator of Henir's "Space and Time" (And as i mentioned before, it is stated that "Henir's Time and Space" is merely a fraction of Henir's inner realm), would be a singular entity that exists across space and time/the timelines and has knowledge of them, since if there was a single Glave limited for each timeline it should be impossible for him to know all about this Add since Diabolic Esper had just arrived at that timeline.

Regarding this as well:

• "Turning things into nothing" and "returning things to their original state of nothingness" are much more blatant about it, but unless this "nothingness" is specified to also include a lack of mind and soul, then it'd be nothing more than the most baseline of EE, which is purely physical destruction.

As i showed before, it is stated that Henir has the power to "turn everything into nothing", and "return everything to nothing", which obviously shows that it isn't only physical, and also as i pointed out, Henir is also called "the destination all existence must turn to". Also as i mentioned before, it is stated that the Henir creatures are Abstract life forms, and Ain is still able to, as he points in Herrscher Story Quest, "turn them into nothing and return them back to their Maker", which means he is able to erase even abstract stuff.

Also, honestly i really don't see how one could think of Henir's Realm being just "a rift that exists between different parallel worlds", both because of what i said above, and because there is way too many stuff talking about Henir's nature that show it is much more than just something like that, it is literally stated that "All of creation is bound to return to nothing/Henir", that Herrscher starts to "exist everywhere and nowhere simultaneosly" because of it, that it is the "Beginning and end of all things" as well as the "Destination all existence must turn to", which means that eventually all of existence (meaning much more than just a single timeline of Elrios and Demon World) is bound to return to Henir.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!