Ace Attorney Speed Stuff

[Buttersamuri]

So quick little thing on speed. This should at least add some consistency.

Feat 1: The witness reacts when Missiles were shot at him by a military drone. Which even slower missiles can hit around 200 to 300 MPH. And Drone missiles can often exceed Sound speed. Here too. So at least sub sonic. And Likely Supersonic since it comes from a military drone.

Feat 2: Phoenix reacting to Von Karmas whip at some points like the Anime. He reacts much closer to the end of it. This is at least Transonic due to a whips Speed like we have on her page. And possibly Supersonic due to Phoenix being at the end of the Whip when reacting. As the whip doubles in speed near the tip

So some consistency at the bare minimum. And a Transonic to Supersonic upgrade via reacting to Vons Whip (which we have at trans to Super) and drone missiles. Supersonic seems more fair for the drone since it is military drone tech. So I say a Boost to Supersonic.

Thoughts?

 

[Buttersamuri]

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[Buttersamuri]

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[Buttersamuri]

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[Buttersamuri]

Bumpy

 

[Jackythejack]

I...guess this is alright.

 

[Buttersamuri]

There sub sonic feat is very casual and comes from a literal blitz feat. So it would make sense they are faster. Phoenix does react to that whip a lot. Missile feat supports it too. Just need a Discussion admin or higher up to give this a yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Reacting to missiles isn't exactly the same thing as dodging them. The Whip feat might seem legit, but I'll need to see scenes of it.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Reacting to missiles isn't exactly the same thing as dodging them. The Whip feat might seem legit, but I'll need to see scenes of it.

In the scene he doesn't dodge them fully yea. But he does make movement. It shows him jumping back with his arms and one of his legs raised and cries out before they strike. which is a form of reacting to them. He just didn't react in a good way. Sort of like how a lot of people would react. Plus. He was on the witness stand which would make it hard for him to dodge in a proper way anyway

Whip scenes I'll get back to you with the anime. I am still trying to dig up that scene as it would be best to have for the link. From what everyone says. Phoenix straight up dodges it in the anime. I'll also grab game scenes too as proof tho too

 

[Buttersamuri]

Reacting to missiles isn't exactly the same thing as dodging them. The Whip feat might seem legit, but I'll need to see scenes of it.

Here's a scene on the game. Watching it frame by frame. Phoenix does give reaction when the whip is on screen. During the sound being broken. Meaning he gave reaction. As well as does the judge and the witness. Which they are at the end of the whip (else it wouldn't be hitting them at the crack sound) shown here

and here

And then here

here

At 4:07, Debeste and Gumshoe both show reaction

4:26 Debeste does it again

14:55 and again (this game has a lot of whipping)

Plenty of more but I think you get the point with games. They react and move a bit to the end of her whip a lot.

If this doesn't work. I'll get back to you in the anime. I'm speaking with someone who watch it a lot and should be able to tell me the scene

Next with the missiles

Before


After


Shows him Making reaction, movement, and speaking. And likely couldn't dodge them completely due to being on the stand which limited where he could even move. So it should qualify


And a bonus thing I need to bring up. This is pretty consistent in the show. But Phoenix has outright cause people to blow up

shown here at 12:01

And the jewel seems to also let people read minds as well. Shown with like here when Maya responds to what Phoenix is saying in his head

So explosion manipulation and Mind reading

 

[Metalthegear12]

Bump

 

[GyroNutz]

In the first clip, he reacted to the whip because he was hit by it. Hence why he said 'Yeow'.

The second clip is just a HD remake of the first.

Third clip is the same thing. Should go without saying that being hit by a whip and reacting out of pain isn't a feat for speed. If they could react to the whip, they'd make more of an effort to dodge it.

 

[Jinsye]

Tbf both Tyrell Badd and Shi-Long Lang are capable of dodging and catching the whip respectively.

However I'm fairly sure those two are out of Wright's league

 

[GyroNutz]

Yeah, if we ever make profiles for them they'd scale to the whip's speed

 

[Buttersamuri]

In the first clip, he reacted to the whip because he was hit by it. Hence why he said 'Yeow'.

The second clip is just a HD remake of the first.

Third clip is the same thing. Should go without saying that being hit by a whip and reacting out of pain isn't a feat for speed. If they could react to the whip, they'd make more of an effort to dodge it.

The frame by frame showed him react to it first is what I'm saying. He was standing in his confident pose. But when the whip was coming. From by frame shows him move as seeing it coming before it hits him


That slash is the whip. He gave a reaction to it before it struck. Yes they don't dodge it. But it always shows them making a reaction before it hits them. Meaning they see it coming. It just often catches them off guard considering how sudden she is about doing it.

And Miles and Gumshoe would scale to those people iirc. Which then scales to Phoenix.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Ok yea. I'm pretty sure that Miles scales. De Killer, or John, was able to evade Shin after the events of the assassination attempt President Huang. And Dogen as well managed to stop De Killer from killing keyes. And even shows them potentially having directly fought. Meaning scaling is a major yes. And Miles as well prosecutes and scaled to him. As well his dog, who consistently catches him off guard when jumping on Dogen. And Miles has reacted to the dog attempting to pounce on him. On top of all that. There is Jay Elbird. Someone who worked with Dogen and should be on par if not superior. (As literally shown to be one of the best fit ones due to his consistent work outs even after being put in jail and being a boxer) Which says here that Edgworth knocked him out. (I'm not entirely certain of the context on this one tho. But regardless. Seems there should be some scaling, as even when they prosecute each other. They tend to react to each other's actions)



And I believe even Phoenix could scale to De Killer himself (as appearing in the courtroom)

And there should be more considering how much he showed up in the games. And that's just one of the two guys. Shi also reacted to Badd before which means they would be closer to even footing. As well Miles reacted to him in a darkened room


(That's Badd. This is the case Turnabout Visitor) He does shoot at him tho, Granted Badd did escape. Miles did show reaction to him. So even tho he escaped, that's still some supporting evidence. So scaling should work. Seems scaling goes around to Those two, Miles, and Dogen at least directly. And indirectly through the rest of the cast.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Also the missile feat is valid too. Since we downright see him move most of his body in a dodging way as well as speaking with a reaction.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I didn't really see any speed feats, perception isn't the same thing as reaction speed. Everyone was getting wrecked and no one actually dodged the whip based on the clips given. Though, Tyrell Badd and Shi-Long Lang catching whips might sound like good feats, but not sure if they'd scale to Phoenix. And I'm unsure if Miles actually dodged the bullet, but I guess the missile reaction feat is fine but prefer to here more input from other staff.

 

[Buttersamuri]

I didn't really see any speed feats, perception isn't the same thing as reaction speed. Everyone was getting wrecked and no one actually dodged the whip based on the clips given. Though, Tyrell Badd and Shi-Long Lang catching whips might sound like good feats, but not sure if they'd scale to Phoenix. And I'm unsure if Miles actually dodged the bullet, but I guess the missile reaction feat is fine but prefer to here more input from other staff.

It wasn't Miles dodging the bullet. It was him being able to react and dodge Badd in the dark. So Miles reacting to Badd himself and evading before he pulled the trigger. And Dogen quite literally fights with someone who manages to evade Shi. Who Miles does scale too. As well. Phoenix scales possibly to De Killer. But I'll ask other staff opinion on it

 

[Buttersamuri]

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[Buttersamuri]

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[Buttersamuri]

BUMPING

 

[Buttersamuri]

FOUND IT

At 10:35. She whips and he moves to the side. Not just seeing it. But avoiding it too. (Or at least moving more away from it). And the judge gives reaction at 10:46. (He doesn't completely move his body cause being stuck on the stand which limits any movement. But he clearly raises his arms above his head and moves back some during the whip slash. Which is enough to give reaction considering where he was).

And again at 12:11 he quite literally moves and avoids the whip entirely.

This plus the missile feat, plus the other characters reacting to the whip which Miles should scale too.

I say a Supersonic upgrade is in order

 

[TriforcePower1]

You weren't supposed to change it yet when no staff member agreed with you.

 

[Buttersamuri]

You weren't supposed to change it yet when no staff member agreed with you.

I spoke with Dark in Message wall.

 

[Greg4581]

Okay this is just silly. There are no feats that should put them at supersonic. Reacting to a whip is something literally anyone can do because you can see the person with the whip preparing to attack with it and react before the whip actually reaches.

Take the anime Trigun for example. Vash seems to be able to dodge bullets but he laters states he's actually not faster than a bullet, he just reacts to the enemy's movements before they actually fire. It's the same concept here.

As for the missiles, they are just an emote, not the real deal.

All Ace Attorny characters should be subsonic as normal humans.

 

[Buttersamuri]

"Reacting to a whip is something literally anyone can do because you can see the person with the whip preparing to attack with it and react before the whip actually reaches."

They aren't reacting to the person before they whip. They are reacting to the whip. Phoenix literally dodges it in the anime. As in it comes at him and he moves away from it. even linked on his page. And other characters like the ones brought up have dodged it and apparently caught it. That's definitely supersonic

"As for the missiles, they are just an emote, not the real deal."

Baselesss. Comes from a legitimate Military drone.

 

[Greg4581]

Again, my original point stands. He sees Franny readying the whip and reacts before the whip actually hits where he was. A whip still starts out subsonic and its wielder is subsonic, meaning you can still react to it and dodge it as long as you can see the person using it. It's like if you're about to shoot someone but they see you right before you pull the trigger so they dodge and you miss. They aren't faster than a bullet, they just saw you preparing to attack and reacted in time.

And keep in mind only the very tip of the whip ever reaches supersonic speed. The rest of it is still subsonic.

Here's a 10 minute video on whips you should watch (skip to 5 minutes if you just want the physics)

And correct me if I'm wrong but is the anime even canon? The game came first so the game is the real canon.

"Baselesss. Comes from a legitimate Military drone."

I realize this is fiction but come on--you really think they'd allow a legit military drone in a courtroom? The missiles did no damage to people or sourroundings, which is my basis for my claim that they weren't real missiles but just for show.

 

[Buttersamuri]

1. Wrong. It's Transonic closer to the start of the whip. Check it Franziska von Karmas Page. It has the article about it.


2. He literally doesn't move until the end is at him. He isn't dodging it based on movement of Franziska else he would already have to be out of the way when we see him. He dodges it as it comes at him. And does dodge it at the end. We literally see him only move when the whip is about to make contact. Meaning he moved faster than the whip. And the end of the whip cause we even hear the whip breaking sound speed with its crack


3. Saying "come on" doesn't help your case to the slightest, this is fiction. Using real world laws always work in a place that lets Franziska use a whip on people in courtroom, black mail the judge, get away with forged evidence. Ect Ect. So not a valid reason. It's a literal drone that comes from literal military. Equipped with actual weapons like the machine gun and missiles. The fact the courtroom wasn't effected is the same reason Phoenix slams his desk yet the desk isn't broken even though it just caused the literal building to shake. Or Another guy hits he desk so hard his shackles break apart, yet the desk isn't even scratched.

 

[Greg4581]

In the video you linked to the anime, he seems to dodge AFTER the cracking sound and he dodges the thick part of the whip, the subsonic part. If you really wanna go through with this then you need something better than YouTube because it doesn't handle frame-by-frame analysis very well.

"Using real world laws always work in a place that lets Franziska use a whip on people in courtroom, black mail the judge, get away with forged evidence."

That's a bit of a fallacy there as you're conflating the laws of physics in this fiction with the laws of society. Many fictional worlds are assumed to follow real world physics so that we can assign them attack potencies, durability, etc.

"The fact the courtroom wasn't effected is the same reason Phoenix slams his desk yet the desk isn't broken even though it just caused the literal building to shake."

So the desk and courtroom are magically indestructable when they need to be? Does Occam's razor mean nothing to you?

Look, almost every work of fiction has little gags that shouldn't be taken as canon because they're just added for fun for the audience. If you ever played the Ace Attorney games, you'd know each character has their own little emote they do to express what they're feeling. They're just little gags, nothing more. This is what the anime tries to recreate when Phoenix does stuff like slam his desk and cause a mini earthquake, which never happened in the game. And since the game came first, it takes priority over the anime.

 

[Buttersamuri]

"In the video you linked to the anime, he seems to dodge AFTER the cracking sound and he dodges the thick part of the whip, the subsonic part. If you really wanna go through with this then you need something better than YouTube because it doesn't handle frame-by-frame analysis very well."

No. He couldn't have dodged the thick part of it because he is literally at where he end of the rope is. Her whip isn't insanely long. Where Phoenix stands is where the end of the whip reaches. We also see this in other videos where the whip can really only get as far as touching him. Which he also reacted to and moved his arm. The whip would have to be much much longer to actually be able to prove your point right. But it isn't. It barely can hit Phoenix. The end is capable of reaching that far. And even the judge has pulled off dodging it. And even frame by frame he has moved some distance during the crack sound. And the fact it didn't hit him, and She intended to hit him. Further proves it.


"That's a bit of a fallacy there as you're conflating the laws of physics in this fiction with the laws of society. Many fictional worlds are assumed to follow real world physics so that we can assign them attack potencies, durability, etc."

No it isn't. The laws in this world obviously work differently to real world laws. You can't use a law in the real world that obviously hasn't been enforced and people have on a normal basis gotten away with.

"So the desk and courtroom are magically indestructable when they need to be? Does Occam's razor mean nothing to you?"

When it's essential for the court to actually take damage it does. But their feats that easily would damage the room doesn't take In account. Because it's simply game mechanic.


"Look, almost every work of fiction has little gags that shouldn't be taken as canon because they're just added for fun for the audience. If you ever played the Ace Attorney games, you'd know each character has their own little emote they do to express what they're feeling. They're just little gags, nothing more. This is what the anime tries to recreate when Phoenix does stuff like slam his desk and cause a mini earthquake, which never happened in the game. And since the game came first, it takes priority over the anime."

That doesn't make it any less usable. They do these feats on a normal basis. Hell. The missile feat isn't even an emote. It happens only once. Thus further disproving your point. Much like blackquil breaking his shackles.we have the facts that it's a legitimate drone with legitimate weapons. Which is why it should be such speeds

 

[Greg4581]

I can see you're never going to accept the arguements I've laid out so far, so how about a new one:

You claim these are actual feats as opposed to emotes, so then why do they only ever occur in the courtroom as opposed to where they would actually come in handy?

Why does Phoenix ride a bike to work if he can run at supersonic speeds?

Why did he lose to an old man with a taser?

Why couldn't he bust open the locks/door when Maya was trapped in the spiritual cave?

Why doesn't he ever show these feats during his investigations where they would actually make a difference? And this applies not just to Phoenix but ALL the characters.

The answer:

They are not real feats, they are just emotes for the sake of making the courtroom debates more interesting.

 

[Jackythejack]

That could be used to apply to literally any character, I hope you realize. Link wouldn't have to worry about any obstacles if he could destroy mountains, Phoenix got beat by an old man with a taser because the old man is I believe in equal footing to Phoenix and also the plot demands it to happen. Phoenix takes a bike to work because...he just doesn't know how to drive.

Asking why he doesn't do these things outside of the courtroom is moot. He still does them.

 

[Buttersamuri]

^^^^^^

That's Plot being Plot. And the old guy definitely scales to Phoenix. Phoenix funny enough is bottom tier in his verse. Even a child knocked him flat. Everyone just is stronger than him typically.

 

[Greg4581]

So basically your ultimate rebuttal to this is "because plot."

Even if you accept this, AA characters are still pretty much featless in terms of combat so it's irrelevent. It's a game about playing lawyer for Pete's sake, not a fighting game...

 

[Jackythejack]

They still have superhuman feats. Whether or not they fight is irrelevant.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Phoenix is undoubtedly Wall level; however, there are some misconceptions here. Phoenix isn't bottom tier persay, but rather he often lets people knock him down; and he has demonstrated being quite strong when a bunch of security guards couldn't stop him. That being said, other lawyers such as Edgeworth, and the Von Karma family are definitely stronger than him; but I wouldn't call him bottom tier. Plus the blatant superhuman feats are undeniable.

 

[Greg4581]

Fine, he's wall level. However I still don't accept the supersonic speed. The video with the whip is inconclusive at best.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Being a fighting game is Completely irrelevant. I could be dodging light speed every day of my life but never raise a fist to fight. That doesn't esxcyse the feats.


Also @DarkDragonMedeus. valid point. Hadn't thought about the security guards.

 

[GyroNutz]

The speed would be combat speed anyway, no?