Possible Darth Vader upgrades

[BruceTheBatman]

1) 5-C+ to Low 5-B Vader Vader was stated to have 80% of Sidious' power. While this might sound like hyperbole, a few things support this

1) He was able to tank Sidious' lightning and throw the sith lord down several hundred miles into the reactor core. He actually would've survived this but the cybernetics keeping him alive, namely his respirator and organ supplements, were overloaded and destroyed, and he eventually either suffocated or went into organ failure, or both. He wasn't actually killed by the lightning itself. At the very least this warrants Moon Level+ durability as Mace Windu did the same feat and took more damage organically than Vader did as Vader would've survived it with little long-term injury if not for his reliance on cybernetics.

2) He is vastly superior to Dooku and Maul, who were on par with Anakin, who Vader is also vastly superior to. Dooku and by extension Revan (High 6-A version anyway) are all vastly below him, so it isn't a stretch to say he's 5-C given the feat above, maybe low 5-b at the most.

3) He is in the same league as Emperor Vitiate per the tenants of the Rule of 2, which encompassed teachings from all sith lords, including the like of Vitiate, Exar Kun, and other luminaries and kept the line filled with powerful and versatile sith lords. While I don't think he could beat Vitiate due to his lightning weakness, he is in Vitiate's league via powerscaling.


2) Possibly Class TJ Striking Power

The reasoning behing this is pretty simple. He's far stronger than Anakin who was far stronger than Kenobi who was roughly comparable to Maul who was physically stronger than Windu who was capable of punching through Durasteel, which was multi-city block+ in dura

 

[The_Everlasting]

>tank

Sidious' Force Lightning ended up killing Vader, saying he tanked it is just plain wrong.

Not to mention it's already been agreed upon that the statement is inconsistent as it would make a lot of characters 80% of Sidious when logically they shouldn't be.

Also, the Rule of Two only began with Darth Bane, it has nothing to do with Vitiate or Exar Kun and does not incorporate their teachings.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

The lightning itself didn't kill him. It was the damage to his cybernetics and respirator.

Not really since Vader's far stronger than many of them.

I thought it took teachings from Korriban that included their knowledge to an extent?

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

No, he is no where near the same league as Vitiate, that 80% Sidious statement should not be taken literally, unless you want to assume that several Sith rival 80% of Sidious or more. He isn't far stronger than Anakin at all, Anakin has comparable force feats, and to be quite honest, better dueling feats. He isn't far superior to Dooku at all, and Revan? Nihilus has better force feats than Vader...

I'm in agreement with Ever, anyway his place on the Banite order is questionable to, as his feats are fairly comparable to Darth Bane.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

You guys are aware Vader was not only alive several minutes after being struck for at least 10 seconds by Force lightning, but also because he got his arm cut off, right?

That, and he even survived a minute without his helmet on. Which is mainly what killed him, Sidious damaged the thing that supports Vader's life, not just the attack. In fact, Sidious could have one shot him, but he was lowering his attack to torture Luke.

 

[Lina_Shields]

While Vader isn't really comparable to Sidious, his power was eventually started to grow to the point where Sidious started to fear Vader's powers.

Vader was also known for hunting Jedi like they are nothing, so his Force powers should be much higher than regular Jedi as well as council members other than Yoda, Palpatine, and possibly Mace Windu (whose powers likely increased to due being amped by Vaapad upon knowledge of Sidious being chancellor).

Also, Vader's suit was specifically designed by Palpatine to be susceptible to Force lightning. Even if Vader managed to install various insulators and protection into his suit, surviving a Force Lightning of that caliber (much stronger than Starkiller's Force Lightning against Vader, and Vader actually survived that without problems) does speak much of his durability. Just want to add in that Vader had one of his arms cut off, so he would be even more susceptible to it.

Suggestions:

• At least Multi-Continent level, likely higher (Vader eventually started to approach Palpatine's power; should be much stronger than the regular Jedi/Sith)
• At least Multi-Continent level, possibly Small Planet level (Should be much stronger than the regular Jedi/Sith; Word of God states that Vader approaches Sidious' power)

Now, there was a rumour back regarding the Bane novels where Bane actually moved some sort of beast Moon with the force so Bane could fly to it, apparently. If this is true, this likely places Bane at Moon level, or higher. Someone needs to verify this however.

Long ago, Dxun had grazed the planet Onderon, close enough that it was possible for creatures to pass across the conjoined atmosphere. Perhaps Bane could nudge the beast moo close enough so that he could travel to the nearby planet that filled the sky. In bloodshed and chaos, Darth Bane would go to Onderon... and there he would find his apprentice.

EDIT: I have asked ChaosTheory on Narutoforums about this particular topic. Depending on his response, this comment may be considered invalid.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

i agree with comment above

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Imo Mace ans Vader are comparable without Vaapad amp in ROTSs thats kind of an outlier if one thinks about it

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

Bane did not telekinetically move a moon, I get pretty aggravated whenever someone brings that up, no offense to you of course Lina, but I've heard it far too often. The Rule of Two novel actually describes what happened; Bane simply rode a drexyl across a few hundred kilometers of vacuum, and protected himself through the Force. It's still impressive, albeit on a nexus, but certainly not moon tugging. It would have been a tremendous outlier regardless, considering that Bane's most prodigious telekinetic feat is crumbling the temple on Lehon, which stood at its apex at about twenty meters or so.

My stance on Vader still stands, as he never demonstrated a force feat that surpassed Anakins showings, they are still comparable so Vader simply grew in wisdom, durability and learned more force powers in comparison to his past self. He was not reaching Sidious in power, as he essentially reached his prime during ROTJ, it is a major reason as to why he sought the help of a powerful force practitioner. He didn't really tank that lightning very well, if at all. He was essentially fried after that attack, which didn't last a large amount of time and was dying afterwards, Luke taking his helmet off simply accelerated the process ever so slightly, he was dead regardless.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I would just like to point out a few things:

1. Palpatine did not fall "hundreds of miles" down that reactor shaft. The Death Star II had a diameter of 160 km. Palpatine would have fallen only a few dozen kilometers.

2. Vader is not "vastly superior" to Dooku. It has been well established that Dooku is far superior to all Councillor level Jedi except for Windu and Yoda. Dooku is likely close to Windu's level really (Windu without Vaapad amp of course). If Dooku and cybernetic Vader had a duel, Vader would win but his victory would be hard earned. Maul is a different matter altogether for reasons I wish not to get into right now since it would lead to a wall of text. I'll just leave it at saying that Dooku is superior to Maul with Maul being comparable to Dooku only in raw power (which was mostly unpolished due to his particular training).

3. Vader is absolutely not in the same league as Vitiate (post ritual of Nathema Vitiate at least) or Exar Kun (though he may be comparable to Exar Kun before his fall). Vitiate and Exar Kun do not belong to the Rule of Two line and Vader cannot be scaled from them. Furthermore, I would argue that Vitiate (post ritual of Nathema) is closer to the level of Plagueis and Sidious (in terms of power in the Force but not combative viability).

4. The droids which Windu was demolishing with his fists can be destroyed by thermal detonators which ChaosTheory123 on NF pegged at 7+ tonnes of TNT. That is large building level. So GJ+ striking power. Also, that ABCD logic in your last point makes no sense at all. Kenobi & Maul are not physically superior to Windu. And Maul is physically superior to Kenobi.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Imo Mace ans Vader are comparable without Vaapad amp in ROTSs thats kind of an outlier if one thinks about it

I agree. Windu without Vaapad amp is in the same tier as Vader and Dooku. In fact, in Legends continuity, Dooku and Windu did fight once in some comic. I don't recall the exact details but they mostly fought evenly. In Yoda: Dark Renezvous, it was flat out stated that Windu and Dooku were equals. And take a look at this video .

 

[Legion350]

I found this Count Dooku respect thread and he's really powerful.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I found this Count Dooku respect thread and he's really powerful.

Ah yes. ShootingNova's Dooku respect thread. A work of art.

And yeah, Dooku was a Badass Motherf***er (Samuel L Jackson himself said this about Dooku). At the start of the Clone Wars and in the novel Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Yoda and Windu were stated to be the only members of the Jedi order considered capable of contending with him. In another novel, Sidious flat out declares that Dooku is roughly comparable to Vader. As far as his lightsaber skills are concerned, he has been declared an equal of Windu with only Yoda being his superior.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Are we going to implement Possibly Low 5-B Vader or no?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I don't think it's being accepted. Even I don't accept it and I'm a huge Vader fan.

Also, if we do upgrade Vader to 5-C or even Low 5-B, we would have to do so for Dooku as well since he's roughly comparable to Vader.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Possibly low 5-B would make sense IMO since Vader and Dooku are roughly comparable to No-Vaapad Windu.


TBH I think either would beat him in a duel.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Star Wars duelling comparisions are like Rock-Paper-Scissors. With Dooku-Windu-Vader, this is how it would go:

Dooku beats Windu

Windu beats Vader

Vader beats Dooku

Ditto with Dooku-Kenobi-Anakin:

Dooku beats Kenobi

Kenobi beats Anakin

Anakin beats Dooku

 

[BruceTheBatman]

How does Windu beat Vader, exactly?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Truth be told, I always thought it could go either way with those two. I'm leaning more towards Windu in a pure lightsaber duel. With Force powers included, I think it could go either way.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Fair enough. I personally would go with Vader in pure sabers tho, since his style is a bit more unorthodox than Windu's and he's a more intelligent fighter.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I think innovative is a more appropriate term for Vader's duelling style.

 

[Lina_Shields]

An AP upgrade for Vitiate, Palpatine, etc?

Probably relevant considering this could change power-scaling of the god tiers entirely.

Also, you can say Anakin and Dooku are comparable to Vader, but only. Vader has both of them beat in lightsaber dueling and force abilities.

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

Except in Anakin's case, he doesn't...

Dooku has also defeated more noteworthy duelists with their own respective feats to credit their skills, in comparison to Vader.

 

[Cropfist]

So, is Vader 80% of Sidious level? If he is it would be consistent with his "The power to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" quote.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I have made a blog post regarding this along with a bunch of other things. Perhaps it is worth taking a look.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

An AP upgrade for Vitiate, Palpatine, etc?
Probably relevant considering this could change power-scaling of the god tiers entirely.

Also, you can say Anakin and Dooku are comparable to Vader, but only. Vader has both of them beat in lightsaber dueling and force abilities.

Vader has Dooku beat in a duel due to a strength advantage and because Djem So is a nice counter to Makashi. In Force abilities, they're both pretty close. Both of them have the magnitude to ragdoll anyone up to the level of an average Councillor yet have shown great subtlety and precision in their applications.