Possible Iihiko Shishime upgrade?

[Kami95]

Warning: This thread contains spoilers about Medaka Box.

Looking at Iihiko Shishime's page, I noticed the first note, that says it's arguable if Iihiko is actual an higher dimensional being or not. So I thought: why don't argue about that?

Here Medaka says his strenght is of another dimension, so skills won't work against him. In fact, he resisted to Medaka's skills, including Book Maker (capable to seal Anshin'in).

He defeated Anshin'i more than a hundred million times, until he finally killed her, even if she's immortal (it's implied she could come back in the future, but only because Iihiko's destruction became reversible).

Personally, I don't think those things would be possible if Medaka's statement was just a figure of speech.

I think the main reason he's not considered an higher dimensional character may be the fact he was actually hit thrice.

1. From Medaka's Kurokami Final.

2. From his own punch.

3. Again from Medaka.

However, that only happened because Medaka can use the Style, and his own power is similar to that. Words can reach him because he understands them, and they're something that trascend dimensions. So, the fact he was hit doesn't necessarily means he can't be an higher dimensional being, since he was only hit by skills that can hit higher dimensional characters too.

tl;dr: Iihiko was stated to be an higher dimensional being, some feats (like resisting to "omnipotent level" skills) seem to suggest he actually is, and there's nothing that seems to suggest he isn't. Shouldn't we consider him a tier 1ish character?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Medaka Box is a metafictional parody manga, so beating Najimi was simply due to him being a "main character"/because the author wanted him to. He strictly appeared to be a physical 3-Dimensional being, so we should probably consider his abilities as unquantifiable hax, as the ACF wiki does.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

What the hell is this...

 

[Kami95]

Well, Medaka Box is a metafictional parody manga, so beating Najimi was simply due to him being a "main character"/because the author wanted him to. He strictly appeared to be a physical 3-Dimensional being, so we should probably consider his abilities as unquantifiable hax, as the ACF wiki does.

I understand that, but there's still Medaka's statement. Even if his physical body is only 3-dimensional, it was stated that only his strenght is of another dimension, couldn't it be possible even with a 3D body? Like when higher dimensional characters fight with lower dimensional characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, personally, I think that Iihiko is too hard to gauge to feature within this wiki. In addition, Medaka's statement is not proof of any kind, just an allegorical speculation.

 

[Kami95]

I see... I suppose powerscaling isn't applicable to him either?

 

[Antvasima]

Not to Najimi, no.

She is mostly a parody character of world-weary superego god-complexes, and a metafictional point about how ridiculously more powerful characters are consistently defeated because the author wants them to be, not because of anything resembling logic.

"NisioisiN" is a workaholic with a genius level IQ, from an intellectualised survivalist/Darwinian society, so much of what he (or she) does tends to be a sharp (and rather condescending) deconstruction of plot conveniences and psychological flaws.

 

[Kami95]

Of course, I was talking about Medaka. Since she's listed as "Probably Low 2-C", shouldn't Iihiko be "Probably at least low 2-C"?

 

[Antvasima]

Medaka is Low 2-C in terms of her most powerful skills, not physically.

 

[Kami95]

And I suppose being immune to level 2-C skills doesn't count?

Well, nvm then, I guess Iihiko's tier will remain "Unknown".

 

[Jucaslucas]

If his power is just to ignore any skill, how is it plot that he beat Ajimu? He just counters her pretty hard.

And I think she should be low 2c, since she has all the strongest skills Medaka has.

 

[Antvasima]

It is a plot point because the whole "main characters beat everybody" trope was repeatedly heavily underscored, because pretty much everything within this manga is heavy satire regarding plot conveniences and the psychological background for archetypal ideological conflicts within fiction, and since it doesn't make any sense for him to be immune to Najimi's most powerful higher-dimensional scale, given that his own is so much more down to Earth.

 

[Jucaslucas]

If his power is just to ignore anyything thrown at him, even if it's for plot, it should be valid. Her powers couldn't even scratch him, that's a feat. He one shoted her with an elastic gun, that's a feat.

It's not like Batman hurting Superman with his pucnhes, that's just plot power, Ihiko has an actual power that just makes him able to wreck her. How is that not valid?

 

[Antvasima]

Again, because it was stated outright that Najimi cannot beat main characters, and because almost everything in this manga is about commenting on and/or exaggerating plot conveniences such as this.

It is pure metafiction and psychological dissection. It does not make almost any sense whatsoever from a power-scaling angle.

In addition, we do not know exactly how powerful Najimi is/was, and Iihiko's abilities seem to be much more oriented towards hax than raw power. He is not portrayed as a higher-dimensional cosmic destroyer, just as a former earthbound hero who devolved into a monster when there were no good causes left to fight.

 

[Jucaslucas]

But he beat her using his powers that countered hers. She even said that she could negate all of Medaka's powers, even though she would lose anyway.

By feats, Ajimu casually destroyed a star, but couldn't hurt him. Wouldn't that put him at least in star level?

Medaka is listed as possibly low 2c with her strongest skills, and Ajimu has every single skill Medaka has, and more. Ihiko is stronger than both. Wouldn't that put at least Ajimu in low 2c?

 

[Antvasima]

Najimi might be 1-B for all that we know, but I agreed with A6colute to place her at "Unknown", due to the questionable nature of her displayed powers (in the form of brief sentences, without any visual illustrations). Iihiko is probably best placed at "Unknown" as well, or simply to have his profile deleted, as it is impossible to quantify.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Shouldn't Ajimu tier be like:

Tier: At the very least 4c(destroyed a star); Possibly low 2c (has literally every single skill Medaka has, and Medaka is at low 2c); Unknown.

4c since her strongest dc feat is the star one, the low 2c by powerscaling to Medaka, and the unknown, because we don't know how strong she is at full power.

 

[Antvasima]

She had a "transcend dimensions" skill, so possibly 1-B, but as I mentioned, I agreed with A6colute to place her at "Unknown".

It might be a bad idea to allow the Medaka Box profiles to exist here however. There is constant trouble in forum threads regarding them, due to the extremely unconventional nature of the story, and I don't really have the energy to argue any more about this.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, she destroyed the star in a dream, so it is not a valid feat.

 

[KamiYasha]

has literally every single skill Medaka has, and Medaka is at low 2c)

Yeah...Medaka just copied a little portion of her skills (around 100)

 

[Kami95]

Should we at least add Nigh Invulnerability to his page, since he seems immune to everything except Style (and probably other word related powers)? Since he has Invulnerability in ACF wiki.

 

[A6colute]

Should we at least add Nigh Invulnerability to his page, since he seems immune to everything except Style (and probably other word related powers)?

No.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

and speaking of higher dimensional nonsense:

http://i4.**********.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399507.jpg

by that scans alone even ichigo is at least 5D being xD, so no.

 

[KamiYasha]

About the "Higher Dimensional" statement, It's clearly an expression.

 

[Kami95]

and speaking of higher dimensional nonsense:
http://i4.**********.com/bleach/420/bleach-2399507.jpg

by that scans alone even ichigo is at least 5D being xD, so no.

That's not exactly the same thing.

The difference is that Iihiko has resisted to absurdely powerful skills (Book Maker is able to seal Anshinin, but Iihiko was immune to that as well, and also to Anshinin's boss skills), and the whole Iihiko arc is based on the fact only style could hurt him, that's why I tought he could be higher dimensional.

I wouldn't have created this thread just for the statement, I did it because I thought it was supported by feats.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

well at full power(aka if it never run out of power), nothing can hurt the fury...and yet it never show any higher dimensional ability..

 

[KamiYasha]

Book Maker is able to seal Anshinin

Actually...it was Book Maker + All Fiction.

But, was only successful on Ajimu because she herself wanted it to be held.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe we should just delete Iihiko's profile, since it is too hard to gauge?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Maybe we should just delete Iihiko's profile, since it is too hard to gauge?

How about create a rule to prevent him(and ajimu) to be upgraded just like yhwach that being claimed to be omnipotent and omniscience?

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe. Would something like the following be acceptable?

"Do not try to upgrade or set specific tiers to Ajimu Najimi or Iihiko Shishime from Medaka Box. Given that they come from a metafictional parody manga, that mostly revolves around deconstructing, circumventing, dissecting, and exaggerating plot conveniences, and does not remotely make sense from a power-scaling perspective, their statistics are too hard to gauge."

 

[Primaris_Brian]

yeah that seem reasonable to me, also I want to hear KamiYasha opinions about this, since he seems like very supportive toward the verse.

 

[KamiYasha]

Sounds good.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Ant Should we also note to not use them in a versus battle? (it should be obvious but it's probably best to spell it out for people)

 

[KamiYasha]

Well, Iihiko vs Fiamma looks fine for now...

 

[Antvasima]

@Aizen Probably, yes.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Kami if their entire statistics/powers are unknown, they probably shouldn't be used in a versus battle.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

well about Iihiko vs Fiamma depend of this thread result then I probably going to remove that match.

 

[Antvasima]

I have now added the rule.

 

[Kami95]

Book Maker is able to seal Anshinin

Actually...it was Book Maker + All Fiction.
But, was only successful on Ajimu because she herself wanted it to be held.

Can you remind me when they said that All Fiction is necessary? Because here Anshin'in says Book Maker was the only skill in history capable to affect her, and I don't really remember well.

Anyway, I think the new rule makes sense.

P.S. Should Namanie Nienami be banned from vs threads as well? Since her style was created to defeat Iihiko, and it's pretty hard to gauge too.

 

[KamiYasha]

I believe it was kumagawa himself that said that he combined them in order to "seal" her.