Naruto TSB Soul Destruction/Kaguya's Regenerationn

[LordGriffin1000]

==Staff Members Only==

TSB Soul Destruction

I had to make this. This topic is always being brought up again and again and again. I'm tired of it so I created this staff discussion thread so we can end this once and for all.

In this thread https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1952686

Several members believe the TSB (Truth Seeking Ball) effects the soul. There evidence is when Minato was shown to still not have arms after the Sage of Six Paths release the Edo Tenshi. This means the TSB not only destroyed his arms but also his soul.

Now to my knowledge, this arm thing wasn't brought up before but I can't remember each and every discussion about this topic. Regardless, the arguments against this were always the same. The TSB nullfy ninjutsu so that's why the Edo could not regenerate after being hit with the ball, thus it's not really Soul Destruction or Regenerationn Negation.

However in the thread linked above, the User TheFinalOrder explained that the soul is not apart of the Edo Tenshi jutsu, just the binding. So all the TSB would be doing is stopping the Edo from regenerating. It was also stated that souls in Naruto have chakra. I don't care to list all the evidence to this but if you read the comments in the thread linked above you will see the times it's shown.

If the Edo Tenshi jutsu doesn't involve the soul I'm fine with the TSB having Soul Destruction. However I'm just going to make this clear. This doesn't apply to other verses as only in the Naruto verse does the soul have their energy type mixed with it. I'm not in favor of giving other verses chakra infused souls just so this can work.

Kaguya's Regenerationn

Another very irritating topic that continues to surface. So apparently it was decided that Kaguya would survive her ETSB via her Regenerationn and not tanking it. Now if the TSB is agreed upon to have Soul Destruction then Kaguya would get Low-Godly Regenerationn for planning on surviving the attack via Regenerationn.

My only problem with this is "How do we know she wouldn't just leave that dimension to not get hit was it ever stated that if she leaves it will disappear?." If someone could prove it would then I'm fine with the Regenerationn upgrade.

Note: TheFinalOrder can comment since he's the one that brought up the Minato thing.

==Staff Members Only==

If anyone else wishes to comment then message me on this wall otherwise their comment will be deleted. I want this done quickly once and for all. So no unnecessary comments.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm personally neutral on this, and Kepekley seems unable to comment ATM, but Matt seems pretty knowledgeable, so I'll wait for his input. Soul destruction seems reasonable, it's the Low-Godly regen is what I'm somewhat iffy on.

 

[Promestein]

The arm thing was brought up before and it always circled back to 'just nullifying Edo Tensei and not actually destroying the soul'.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The arm thing was brought up before and it always circled back to 'just nullifying Edo Tensei and not actually destroying the soul'.

Pretty much.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So we need the exact data book explanation of the Edo Tenshi to see if it involves the soul in the ninjutsu or not.

 

[Promestein]

I don't think it matters if it does or not if it negates the ninjutsu. The soul will just go back to the afterlife without the binding.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Since it negates ninjutsu that means it negates the binding on Minato's arms thus sending that part of his soul back to the afterlife. This would explain why he didn't have his arms when the jutsu was broken because their already back in the afterlife.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I have permission from LordGriffin1000 to comment.

I am in support of the notion that Souls in Naruto have Chakra. We see this numerous times for it to not be true:

From Minato sealing half of Kurama's soul and thus half of Kurama's Chakra.

With Dan sending his soul to Tsunade and then giving her Chakra with it.

Obito giving Kakashi his Chakra from his soul.

I agree with that notion; however, I don't agree that TSB have soul destruction through Minato's soul not having his arm.

Per Kabuto's own words, the Edo Tensei Jutsu works like a summoning Jutsu. It summons a soul via tissue/flesh of the body of the soul you wish to summon and then traps them into the vessel of another body. This is the whole jutsu, the foreign body and soul summoned.

The TSB physically interact with Edo Tensei and as we see, it stops the Edo Tensei Regenerationn of Minato's arms and later we see the arms from Minato's soul are also gone.

How this works is that TSB are explicitly stated to be able to nullify and erase Ninjutsu. As I explained above, the Edo Tensei is a Ninjutsu that works by trapping the soul into a vessel. The TSB, by nullifying part of the Ninjutsu that is holding part of the soul, technically releases the soul since it's nullified the vessel's containment of the soul. It's not actually destroying the soul, just nullifying what's holding it.

As per Kaguya's Low Godly, I entirely disagree. It should be a Discussion Rule at this point since we've had numerous threads about it and they all lead to disagreement since there is no actual feat nor evidence of it. There's too many ifs and buts with assumptions.

 

[Promestein]

Makes sense to me.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yep. Like Prom, I agree with IMade.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I agree with iMade.It'd be funny if Kushina is freaking out in the afterlife over seeing her husband finally return, only to see that it's just his arms.

 

[Antvasima]

If Prom and Cal are fine with it, I am as well, but somebody should preferably ask Burning Full Fingers to comment here.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Also agree with IMade.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

I was given permissio to post.

Personally I don't think the ETSB plays a part in her Regenerationn. I do agree, it is full of assumptions. Consider the following (and I could be wrong):

Dan used the ghost transformation jutsu as an edo tensei, and he specifically says "souls ascending after being released by the edo tensei can be controlled with that jutsu too". Choza directly states the caster of the jutsu becomes a living ghost, aka a soul.

He uses this jutsu to possess Tsunade's body to dodge Madara's susanoo attack. He did disappear since he was still being released by the edo tensei, but we see here than Dan gave her chakra, and not only that, but Mei refers to Madara's soul as chakra.

The databook states that Dan is indeed a soul while this jutsu is cast, and he can't be physically interacted with, because he has no substance.

We see the same thing after Obito died. His soul in the form of chakra, went into Kakashi, they talked, and Obito gave him chakra, letting Kakashi have a double MS.

Chiyo states the bijuu are spirits, and giant quantities of chakra. The juubi is described as the beginning of all chakra, and the combination of all the chakras of all 9 tailed beasts. This is further explained by Obito.

When Naruto destabilized Obito's chakra and began to extract it, all the bijuu are seen in pure chakra states, (just as we will see with Kaguya below), before being fully extracted and assuming physical forms.

Kaguya is the ten tails + the god tree, and without all bijuu chakra, she's simply the gedo statue.

Kaguya turns into a mass of tailed beast chakra after Naruto hits her with multiple rasenshuriken, and all that chakra turns back into her body. This allowed her to regenerate the arm Naruto tore off. Obviously, the effects that allowed her to regenerate an arm affect her whole body, as her whole body was chakra, not just her arm.

It is also important to understand that bijuu cannot die permanently, because they will just re-emerge after some time.

I also made an interesting discovery. With Sasuke unsealing Anko's curse mark, Orochimaru was able to be revived, even though he was sealed by Itachi's totsuka blade, who conveniently died right after.

This was possible, because Orochimaru put some senjutsu chakra in the curse mark, which he referred to as pieces of his consciousness, and Sasuke used a piece of Kabuto's body as a medium for Orochimaru's consciousness to regrow his body.

So the soul and the conscious are both composed of chakra. Orochimaru used a small piece of Kabuto's body to regrow his body through his consciousness/chakra, Kaguya did it with her chakra alone.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I just wanted to comment that I agree with IMade and that I'm not going to be online probably until late in the day so I'm not going to be able to reply if someone wanted to comment here.

However IMade seems to have explained it perfectly.

@Callsign

While she can reform her body from pure chakra, she can't do this naturally. What happened to her was not something she did but a side effect to Naruto's Raseshuriken. This means she can't do it normally, but considering she is like a Tailed Beast I'm fine with giving her Resurrection like the Biju.

Anyway that's it for me. We would need to come up with a rule about the TSB Soul Destruction thing and the Low-Godly Regenerationn when this thread is done.

I'm going to sleep since I need to undertake a task later that's harder then anything and that's... Watching my 1 year old niece.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

I do agree she can't do it normally, and its a recurring theme that affecting Bijuu chakra/Jinchuuriki with external bijuu chakra is what causes this to happen (Obito, Kaguya). But even if it wasn't by controlled means, it still happened.

Black Zetsu actually says "mother didn't transform into the ten tails of her own will, but its not humanoid", implying she can, and if memory serves, she has. Transforming into the ten tails would seem to have the same effect as turning into her rabbit chakra form.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Imade makes sense regarding Soul Situation. I wasn't 100% sure that separating parts of the Edo Tensei body would count towards nullifying the binding on those parts of the body, thus sending those parts of the soul back to the afterlife. It seemed to have more assumptions built in to that specific notion, but eh....I won't argue against it, so long as it is feasible without much going against it.

As far as Low-Godly Regen for Kaguya, I agree with it.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Why I agree with Low-Godly Regen for Kaguya.

So, this is what it says for "High" Regen and "Low-Godly" Regen:


There are Two Things to note here:

• It is Established in Naruto that Space-Time Ninjutsu allows you cross over between The World of the Living and the afterlife through Obito.

• Kaguya has a feat of Turning her Body into pure Chakra and reforming it.

Considering Souls Contain Chakra, Kaguya should be able to reform her body using her Chakra if she is a soul.

Though, there is a caviot to this....there has only been 2 instsnces of Souls Returning to the World of the living and both instances used a medium to do so.

• Hagoromo was only able to come back when Ashura+Indra+Kurama's Chakra touched.

• Obito, when he came back, did so through his ashes

Given this is the case, if Kaguya's body would be destroyed, the only logical way for her to Return would be through her ashes at least.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I disagree

TSB nullifies ninjutsu and that is it, which includes all the properties of ninjutsu which Edo Tensei is a part of.

this has been discusses thoroughly before so I'm surprised that it was brought up again

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

as for Kaguya's regen, low godly is a no no but im still somewhat convinved that her regen should be High or Mid High but i digress

 

[Callsign_Castle]

@TFO

Obito never went to the pure land before he body jumped Kakashi.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

And I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this but I believe low godly Naruto anything is wank, and many of the events that involve souls and chakra and what not are inconsistent and change depending on the events of the story. so we are trying to justify one inconsistent event that can be explained with far fewer assumptions with a bunch of other inconsistent events that are not connected in any other way.

 

[PaChi2]

Agreed about the Edo tensei thing.

Kaguya regenerating from the ETSB is simply speculation.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Jimboydejuan12

When a thread is highlighted, everyone gets a notification...

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Reminder, this thread is staff only and those with permission to comment from LordGriffin1000 if they will structurally support their view with evidence.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Low-Godly Regen is Supported. You guys are not considering all the Information.

• Your Soul can return to the world of the living through the use of a medium (Special Chakra meeting in the case of Hagoromo and Ashes in the cased of Obito)

• Kaguya has shown converting her body into pure Chakra and reforming it in Flesh and Blood.

You guys are not addressing this.

 

[PaChi2]

Its still speculation.

"Kaguya has a feat of Turning her Body into pure Chakra and reforming it. Considering Souls Contain Chakra, Kaguya should be able to reform her body using her Chakra if she is a soul."

^Speculation.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@TheFinalOrder

1. What does that half to do with Kaguya?. She has not shown the ability to come back from the afterlife as a soul. Just because the Hagomoro and Obito can do it doesn't mean she can, that's speculation.

Also, Hagomoro and Obito came back as only souls. Hagomoro couldn't even create a new body on his own. So I don't see how two characters coming back as Souls prove Low-Godly Regenerationn.

2. The problem with this is she can't do that naturally. It was because of Naruto's attack did she even turn into that thing. If I destroyed Kaguya's top half in an instant she would not turn into that creature and regenerate.

That only happened because she lost control, at least to my knowledge.

 

[PaChi2]

Inb4 Kaguya is a logia-like chakra creature.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Even then, she wouldn't get Low Godly. Also, I honestly with no hint of snark thought that's where people were going with it.

 

[PaChi2]

Even then, she wouldn't get Low Godly. Also, I honestly with no hint of snark thought that's where people were going with it.

yes because Chakra = Soul = Lowgodly

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The member Omimi asked me to bring this up.

He says "TSB nullifies Ninjutsu/Chakra so since the Soul = Chakra then the TSB should be able to effect the soul."

The problem I have with this is going by that logic anyone who can absorb chakra can basically absorb the soul as well. However we see that the Preta Path can only absorb chakra and the Human Path is the only one that can effect the soul. Also, IMade pretty much explained the TSB Edo Tenshi thing.

Anyway, I've allowed one more person to comment and we will see if he brings anything different, if not then we need to create a rule for this topic.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Its still speculation.
"Kaguya has a feat of Turning her Body into pure Chakra and reforming it. Considering Souls Contain Chakra, Kaguya should be able to reform her body using her Chakra if she is a soul."

^Speculation.

It's also speculation to say the TSB only nullified the Binding of those Specific parts of the Edo Tensei, which is why Minato has no armsas a soul is it not?

If I ask you "how is that the binding of only the arms were affected and not the entire binding aspect of the Edo Tensei jutsu" would your response not be considered speculation?

• TSB nullifies Ninjutsu

• Madara and Obito hit both of Minato's arms

• What proof is there thar the TSB affected the binding of the Edo Tensei Soul and not simply the Bodies Regen?

Fact is, we never see Minato's arms revert back to a Zetsu Arm after it's cut off which is proof that the "binding" of the soul to the host was undone.

Without that proof, saying the Binding of Minato's severed arms was affected is nothing but speculation.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

^That being the case, I can say that given the binding of Minato's Soul to the Host body wasn't Nullified, only Regenerationn of the Edo Tensei Body was in that specific area as that is the only proof we have.

And because destroying a Edo Tensei Body doesn't affect a soul normally, the fact that Minato's soul was damaged after the Binding was undone is proof that the TSB does infact attack the soul.

The only discent to this notion is based on speculation (No matter how possible it may be)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Its still speculation.
"Kaguya has a feat of Turning her Body into pure Chakra and reforming it. Considering Souls Contain Chakra, Kaguya should be able to reform her body using her Chakra if she is a soul."

^Speculation.

Was given permission to comment here by LordGriffin.

Anywho, im mostly neutral at the moment but I wanted to come here to address this reply by Pachi.

Should be able to isn't instantly speculation. Putting "Possibly" on a characters page is a thing we all know of and many characters here have abilities (not limited to just regen) that are acknolwedged as a possible ability for a character and this is not different for Kaguya. If its the matter of "should be able to", then simply put possibly and leave it at that.

Besides, we had a massively big thread about whether or not Kaguya would regen from ETSB and majority agreed she would .

 

[PaChi2]

I wont discuss this any further.

Sorry but Im not interested enough to keep arguing against this. Based on the current "evidence", Im against Low godly regen on anyone (excluding Edo Tenseis) in Naruto, period.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@LG1000

1.) Obito came back via Kamui, I.E., Space-Time Ninjutsu, Which Kaguya has. On Top of this, before doing so, Rin asked him how he planned to go back to which he stated Chakra connects the two worlds and used Kamui.


Kaguya also has Space Time Ninjutsu Teleportation like Obito. This scans implies anyone who can teleport between dimensions has the ability to return to the World of the living as a Soul Granted they have a medium. This isn't an Associative Fallacy, which you are arguing.
Also, Nobody except for Kaguya has shown to reform a body from Chakra. It is an associative fallacy to say Hagoromo could do the same, to which, unlike the Obito situation which has statements, implications and context supporting Kaguya being able to do the same, Hagoromo has nothing.

2.)She lost control of the Biju and transformed into that entity, but her transforming Chakra and reforming her body has nothing to do with that form. Unless you think Kaguya can only absorb Chakra from IT and create a ETSB while in that form. Those were concious decisions on her part. It is something she can do Naturally. As she did all three simultaniously.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Cal

If possibly being able to Regen from being a soul wouldn't give Low-Godly Regen, shouldn't that be taken off of the description for Low-Godly Regen?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@TheFinalOrder

Can you please post scans of Kaguya turning herself into chakra and reforming?.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Also, this is sounding like Demigra. He was stated to be able to come back from his hatred alone but we rate that as Resurrection.

If you're arguing Kaguya dies, teleports back to the living then reforms a new body. Then that's Resurrection since it's basically the same as Demigra