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  1. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    I have, but whatever the case, a "permanent opinion" is the same as "I'm not willing to change my mind on this regardless of what is said or how incorrect it is", and guess what the definition for "stubborn" is? stub┬Àbor= (st┼¡bÔÇ▓ərn)= adj. stub┬Àborn┬Àer, stub┬Àborn┬Àest'1.'a. Refusing to...
  2. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    You... literally just admitted you're stubborn in fancy words in this small paragraph. Ok, and what's your reason for his planet level durability that wasn't already addressed? If I'm missing something here, I'd like to know what it is. I think you're misunderstanding me here, all I said about...
  3. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    I'm not making an extension, I'm using the fact that he could be referring to an imperfect copy, and copies aren't necessarily the same as the original, not even sure where you got that from, the word you're looking for is "replica", a copy is an attempt to mimick/imitate something, it isn't...
  4. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Also, to solidify the Archer point "As for the human he once was, no traces of that person exist. Instead, he is now the personification of what most people would imagine one who holds the title of "Ally of Justice" to be." So yeah. Edit: Also, since you agreed with the MFTL thing, shouldn't...
  5. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    All of this is correct, but the information from which the Servants are summoned is basically a perfect copy of the Throne of Heroes, so it's basically the same thing.
  6. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Copies are very often inferior, which is the case in the Nasuverse (projections are inferior to original Noble Phantasms for example), so that could be what it's referring to, since a copy is whatever attempts to perfectly replicate the original, which doesn't necessarily succeed. Either way, by...
  7. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Connected =/= exact, sure, but " but that history is the exact same as the throne of heroes," ^this is exact, so... your point? Can't be called copies because they are exactly the same thing, it's the only interpretation that makes sense context-wise, there's no way this " However, that...
  8. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    I apologise, I only did it because it's easier to know what I'm addressing, considering multiple posts of his were posted in succession.
  9. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    2) And yet you haven't given a good reason as to why his durability would scale to her most powerful attack's DC, even though nothing indicates that she got to use it on him before getting defeated. 3) a) Idk what you mean with fragments of the soul, if that is how much of the HS can be...
  10. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    I don't care if you care or not, he is an exception, and it isn't Gilgamesh's case, Archer in Extra isn't called Emiya for a reason, he isn't the same guy, Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh, everything about him is the same. The Alters also have nothing to do with this, Gilgamesh has zero traits of an...
  11. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    2) Never called it an outlier, I said the feat relies heavily on gameplay mechanics, there's no proof that he took a hit from her, let alone from her most powerful attack. 3) a) What does that have to do with... well, anything I said? The Grail is just a catalyst, a container, what determines...
  12. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Anyway, I gotta go off now. Will reply to anything posted after I wake up. Edit: you forced my hand.
  13. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Archer is an exception, he isn't the same guy, I have already addressed that, he isn't an alternate version, he's just not the same guy; you're just taking an exception and trying to pass it off as the rule. The quote does, in fact, literally state that the "human history records" from which...
  14. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    2) She has one planet level attack, an attack we don't even know if she used on him outside of gameplay mechanics, and he has planet level attacks too, so why would she demolish him? You know, you can defeat someone without being hit. 3) a) Never have I said they were the same, only that the...
  15. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Sure, but that applies to Archer, the same can't be said for Gil since, unlike Archer, he is a legitimate HS from the Throne of Heroes in both settings, and Moon Cell copies literally everything from the Throne of Heroes as evidenced in the quote I provided. Tamamo isn't a Divine Spirit in...
  16. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    It literally states that the Moon Cell's history is both connected to the Throne of Heroes, and that it's exactly the same as the Throne of Heroes, so Gil is still exactly the same. "...However, that human history is connected to the throne of heroes in multiple ways, so they can't be called...
  17. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    I said retconned because he made it first, but sure, call it whatever you wish.
  18. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    1) Alright, glad you agree. 2) Ehh, we all know Gil is above her, but as evidenced multiple times, in the Nasuverse, being stronger than someone doesn't give you the scaling for all their stats, for example, it's painfully obvious that Gilgamesh is above the likes of Heracles, as evidenced from...
  19. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Proof that Fate/Extra's Servants also come from the Throne of Heroes: "Taiga: Is it correct to say that Moon Cell Servants aren't summoned from the counter force, but are instead reproduced copies like NPCs? Sakura: Yes, that's right. To be more precise, they are perfectly reproduced from the...
  20. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    You didn't explain anything, all you said was "different HGW, different stat rank values", even though I explained to you why that assertion was wrong in the first place, and you still haven't countered my argument in the slightest, in fact, you didn't even address it, just outright ignored it...
  21. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Actually, F/SN, F/P and F/E (the story, that is, he had nothing to do with the gameplay, or its mechanics) are all written by Nasu. But there is zero proven difference with the stats from different Grail Wars, in fact, the fact that they all have the same source for summoning the Servants is...
  22. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    You're still on about Fate/Prototype even though it's retconned? I assume you also believe that (Nasuverse) King Arthur is a man, Gil doesn't have Ea, instead has a golden bow named Enki, the HGW can take place in Tokyo even though it was stated over and over again Fuyuki is the only place in...
  23. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Actually, F/SN, F/P and F/E (the story, that is, he had nothing to do with the gameplay, or its mechanics) are all written by Nasu. But there is zero proven difference with the stats from different Grail Wars, in fact, the fact that they all have the same source for summoning the Servants is...
  24. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    ...They all summon Servants directly from the Throne of Heroes, which is where both the Heroic Spirits (which are summoned as Servants) and their stats are recorded, therefore A = A, B = B, etc. no matter the HGW. "It's not like that" isn't a counter argument.
  25. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    That quote was expanded upon later in the post (just look at the biggest paragraph), annd yet you completely ignored it. Literally all of this has already been addressed and you ignored it.
  26. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Doesn't matter. Never said they can...? Ehh what? The stats are how the Throne of Heroes recorded them, the Grail/Moon Cell only summons the Heroic Spirits from the Throne of Heroes, so the values of the ranks are the same. What can happen is the stat's ranks to be decreased if the Grail isn't...
  27. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    1)Ok, so what? 2) Whether he can beat someone stronger/equal (I'm still waiting for the source that states that Saver > or = Kiara, btw) or not is irrelevant to his durability. DC? Perhaps. Durability? Not unless there's any evidence he took any of the strongest hits.
  28. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Why exactly would the stats be measured differently? Moon Cell isn't an excuse. That's the point, he doesn't have MFTL+ speed, not via his own footspeed, at least.
  29. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    What's in the same calc? Relevant to game mechanics? Of course not. To canon? Yes, it is. Luck varies depending on the compatibility of the personalities of both Servant and Master, not how much Mana they provide, there's a reason why Shirou's Saber has a much higher stat than Kiritsugu's or...
  30. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    1) What's that supposed to prove? 2) Divine Spirits can't be summoned as Servants, he's clearly not at his peak as a Divine Spirit. I never questioned him being able to manage on the scale of a whole Solar System. What are you trying to prove here?
  31. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    or something like that. F/SN Gil =/= Mythical Formal Wear Gil. About the durability, i already specify above why is like that. Source for Nero and Archer doing it? I'm assuming you're referring to him getting one shotted by Excalibur? Doesn't matter if it's F/SN or Mythical Formal Wear Gil...
  32. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    1)that wiki is open for anyone to edit, so I'll ask you for the source that backs the statement up. 2) That's not how the burden of proof works. Karna had no reason to hold back either, especially when he wasn't in a position to choose to do so, considering he was facing someone stronger than...
  33. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    1) I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing anymore. All he did was use the ship to reach the battlefield, which he states in the quote. 2) The whole gameplay mechanics idea comes from the fact that him tanking her NP, even though it's unknown if she used it or not, is pure...
  34. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    He gifted Kavacha & Kundala (his armour) to his Master in order to protect her. But that's not the issue, the thing is, during the fight against Karna, he can use Vasavi Shakti in-game, which we know that he didn't in the story for reasons already pointed out. Kiara's NP is under the same...
  35. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    True, but the thing is, he didn't even do anything while using it. Kiara threw him to the other edge of the galaxy, he used the ship NP to cross the distance, and then he is suddenly back in the battlefield, and the dialogue I posted here happens. Here's the scene (untranslated though)...
  36. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    1) Except he is also able to aim and fire his Gate of Babylon while in flight. 2) He explicitly saves Hakuno from deletion after fighting through the Grail War with them in his ending, leading to the deletion scene after beating Saver before saving them and flying away to another planet. 3) It...
  37. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    Being above her doesn't make him necessarily more durable, otherwise we'd be putting FSN Gil above Heracles in durability, which clearly contradicts the fact that Heracles has a higher endurance rank than Gil. What exactly are you pulling here? Vasavi Shakti kills divinity, if anything, more...
  38. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    1) He simply brought out a ship that counters being flung to the edge of the galaxy (which is what Kiara did to him), which he literally states in the translated quote. 2) Saver is the final boss of Fate/Extra (in which Gil isn't even playable), not CCC. Also, I'm not disputing his Large Planet...
  39. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBiG4xwNWdk http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21245 It's a special move, that may or may not be used during the fight, and it's pure speculation to say that she used it, when other Noble Phantasms that we know for a fact would kill Gil if used(Vasavi Shakti...
  40. AkatsukiChurch

    Gilgamesh downgrade

    MFTL travel speed via GoB, the rest (movement, reaction, etc.) should be the same as his Fate/Stay Night counterpart, I assume. Durability should also be the same as in Fate/Stay Night by feats. Edit: Hypersonic+ with High Hypersonic reactions for speed, and Building level, City level with his...
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