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  1. MattadorProne

    Persona - Empowerment

    Lol sounds good
  2. MattadorProne

    Persona - Empowerment

    1/ Its not nullification I'm arguing for. We can justify it as high resistance alongside reactive evolution (he developed a resistance through the fight; possibly to immunity the highest form of resistance). An increasing resistance over time is one of the applications listed on the reactive...
  3. MattadorProne

    Persona - Empowerment

    @Dragonmasterxyz 1/ I'm still not convinced that Makoto's durability itself was increased. He has only one feat, vs one attack, to support this and therefore it should not apply to literally every other attack on the wiki. That is about the definition of NLF imo. Whatever we classify Death as...
  4. MattadorProne

    Persona - Empowerment

    Sounds good.
  5. MattadorProne

    Persona - Empowerment

    HP is a game mechanic. The amount really isn't important since there is no decenable difference at 1HP or 2HP. The last chance hit pointis very common in fiction and videogames. I have looked through some other verses listed on the TV Tropes page on the Vs. Wiki and have not seen this...
  6. MattadorProne

    Persona - Empowerment

    Resistance and invunerability to what though? I am not in agreement for applying this to all cases. We have absolutly zero evidence to justify this. Makoto should probably be listed as having immunity to death manipulation or whatever we want to classify death as.
  7. MattadorProne

    Persona - Empowerment

    Would it not be best rationalized as high resistance through empowerment or whatever? Makoto and Yu only tanked a single type of move each (Death for Makoto for example). Hence they should resist these moves. We have to rationalize how these would work in vs battles. Like the rational here...
  8. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    1/ AP arguments: Ren and Makoto are around equal in AP and Durability. Stating that Death vastly surpasses Rays of Control (which Ren tanked like a champ) or vice versa is without any real evidence. Makoto also tanking Death does not mean he could tank Sinful Shell, the whole boost is...
  9. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    His gun works. There in no proof in game for nullification. What this argument is based on is one instance where an almighty move possibly is nullified (since it is the profile writer's interpertation). However even the profile refutes this statement since, without more evidence, we cannot...
  10. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    Agreed. Ren has more win conditions and versatility: -Makotos weakness to curse element, which Sataneal carries. Would effectivly allow for Ren to "move twice per turn", temporarily stun Makoto, or a relative equivalent. -Ren's nuclear (and Psy moves) are effectivly almighty moves with...
  11. MattadorProne

    The Velvet Room Discussion Thread

    This isn't targeted at anyone, just dropping in my two cents. Why Akechi is an Awesome Character: Ren, or many of the other Phantom Thieves, could have easily become just like Akechi. Why didn't Ann kill Kamoshida? Why didn't Yusuke seek revenge on Madarame? Why didn't Haru or Joker murder...
  12. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    I agree. This is the point I was attempting to convey (although I probably did a poor job at it). Both abilities should work. The burden of proof lies on disproving them in this case rathar than proving them. Simply put, immunity to energy Projection provides the nullification, and resistance...
  13. MattadorProne

    The Velvet Room Discussion Thread

    My guess is that he's still dead, at least in the real world. Likely temporarly alive (until the "fake world" collapses) like Wakaba and Haru's dad. That being said I do think it is actually him, not some copy (which would be a cop out on the part of Atlas).
  14. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    Seems good. I actually still agree about your rational of equating Makoto with his teammates, since AP wise he is no stronger (I was never disagreeing with that, only using it as a point of evidence for the discrepancy in P5). That being said I won't complain if you feel it needs to be altered...
  15. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    A clearer replacement for the first image
  16. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    I apologize for the potato quality of the images.
  17. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    @DarkGrath This is all based on the fact that Sinful shell has an almighty icon next to it? Because the Great Seal does too (The small nuclear symbol). And since sealing only bypasses conventional durability it would not bypass resistances (which Ren has the same feats and abilities listed to...
  18. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    @JesterofGames there is nothing to back your statement of gun attacks being equivilant to pierce. -The guns Aigis uses are real while the P5 squads are not; they are based off cognition and magical in nature. -Double fangs, a piece skill in P3, is equated as a physical skill in P4 and P5. Twin...
  19. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    Take all the time you need to feel better; there is no rush.
  20. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    @JesterofGames Lol I had actaully forgotton Messiah is weak to curse attacks: weak to Darkness Manipulation and Curse Manipulation (P5 first made non-instakill light and dark attacks, before these would all be the same thing as death manip.). I don't know if we are considering Nyx's Death as...
  21. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    No I don't mean directly scaling. I worded it poorly, I'll just show you. Is this: (The scaling at the moment) Ren Amamiya (Satanael) >>>>> God of Control >> (All) Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >> (Single) Velvet Room Attendant > (Single) Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves = Caroline &...
  22. MattadorProne

    The Velvet Room Discussion Thread

    @Naeblis Yeah some new trailers dropped recently. Ryuji's is old news. Futabas ( Unnamed ) and Morganas ( Diego [de la Vega] )
  23. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    You are completly incorrect about the nature of resistance to resistance negation, allow me to explain. "Resistance Negation (actively with Break skills, passively with [Gun attacks and Almighty spells, which bypass Elemental Resistances" Note the distinction between active and passive. An...
  24. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    Then should not all (Solo) Post Q Phantom Thieves scale to the God of Control? That is my point of contention/confusion. I have no problem with your method so long as it is consistant.
  25. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    I'll address this tomorrow need to sleep. Don't worry though, I'm not offended and I never really assume someone is offended by my comments. Its more so that I feel embarrased when I break proper conduct. My Canadian-ness won't allow it (seriously its a thing; genuinely feel terrible if I don't...
  26. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    That was still them fighting as an organized group. The three of them combined can reach that AP rating, but alone? I have doubts. It really isn't different from when their AP goes up due to all fighting together (like in the case of all post Q PTs). I'm just confused by the inconsistency. If...
  27. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    Summary: However the BFR resistance does still remain if we have agreed on the method of sealing (Erebus had reached Nyx to call about the fall; makoto banished it to the shadow relm). Ren also carries a resistance to resistance negation so the seal will not bypass this (only ignores...
  28. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    Erebus: Whatever the means is, there is nothing pointing towards a power corrolation in the two. It is entirly possible to control someone stronger than you. Even then it was not direct control or puppetry of some sort. There is nothing concrete to suggest an AP corrolation. Solacis: When I...
  29. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    Erebus was not controlling Nyx. Nyx was genuinly convinced by Erebus that humanity desired death. Thats it. It did not affect Nyx directly. Also we have not come to a decision on your scaling chain so at the moment we are using what Solacis has provided. We can assume Joker and Makoto are equal...
  30. MattadorProne

    Persona 3 Protagonist vs Persona 5 Protagonist

    @DarkGrath Gonna have to politely disagree with you here: The idea that the great seal is a unfalable win condition is baseless. Let lay out the facts: - It was used to seal erebus not true nyx, whom is far weaker than true nyx, joker, and even the nyx avatar (you yourself have argued nyx...
  31. MattadorProne

    Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2

    Ok, gotcha. Was another thing I had lifted off the Shido profile but probably shouldn't have. I'll have that changed.
  32. MattadorProne

    Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2

    Sae is definitely a genius. Passing the Japanese bar (lawyer) exam at 17 (in highschool) is an absolutely ridiculous feat and would make her a genius by real life standards (which is what the tiering is based by). Her detective feats are easily at least comparable to Naoto (who notably has done...
  33. MattadorProne

    Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2

    Also verifying if Sae's cheating would be considered Probability Manipulation. I mean technically she is only using a glass lid to do so, but since everthing in a place is rendered real, her methodology for it is less important than the outcome. It would also explain the rigging of the various...
  34. MattadorProne

    Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions PART 2

    If anyone is curious here is the progress on the Sae Niijima Profile. Its still a WIP, but do tell me if anything is incorrect or inproper: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:MattadorProne/Sae_Niijima_Profile_(WIP) Had to edit the images for Shadow Sae and Levithian to make them...
  35. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    It is not equatable. I'm not saying the characters are weak or anything in Q1 and 2. I'm not making any statement about tiering. What I'm saying is that scaling cannot be done from the main game ultimates to Q ultimates becuase the circumstances are so different. As you've stated sub-personas...
  36. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    It is notable that in PQ protagonists are no more special than any other character, at least not to the extent as in the main games. No wild card. None of the protagonists have their empowerment either (no world, universe whatever). Therefore there is no reason to scale them in this way.
  37. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    He was empowered by the will of the people. It was demonstrated in game though the cutscenes. Joker not getting toyed with one reason why he is being rated higher than the other protagonists.
  38. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    IDK why a single endgame SEES is ranked higher than Elizabeth; they would have no chance in hell against her alone. Makoto is also far stronger than his teammates. It would lower the massive upgrade needed for Elizabeth in P4A as well. Should be End Game Makoto > All Endgame SEES teammates >...
  39. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    No arcana is stronger than another, proven by P1 and P2. Its all symbolic. Its the same problem as when people pull the universe arcana as to why Makoto is obviously the strongest with no basis. Universe is not > to the world for example. We could change the name of the key to Ren (Unchained) or...
  40. MattadorProne

    Persona Scaling Chain

    Having the ultimate persona does not equate to the endgame key. Heavy amounts of empowerment is involved, the best example is Makoto recieving the universe arcana. It just so happens the protagonist often gets the ultimates during these events.
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