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Scrlk666777

Okay then here is the very first time you were rude.

First, it's not hard to scale to Accel at all, if you think it is that's because you see him in some kind of inaccessible level when the novel makes it clear when he is above, equal or below someone, Kakine while somewhat inferior still puts enough resistance to be in the same level.

Here you are accusing me of thinking that Accelerator has some kind of inaccessible level of power without even asking what I mean by nobody should scale to Accelerator. And Kakine's resistances are basically his high regeneration.

We aren't stupid

Accusing me of calling you stupid when I did no such thing.

so shut up, for real

And this was you just being rude in general.

Look I don't know why you decided to be so rude really only you can answer that.

XDragnoir

Here you are accusing me of thinking that Accelerator has some kind of inaccessible level of power without even asking what I mean by nobody should scale to Accelerator.

Yes, you said no one should scale to Accel, which is literally putting him in an inaccessible level (i.e a level only Accelerator should be in), but i wasn't rude and didn't imply anything, you said "no one should" and i explained why that's a wrong line of thought right afterwards.

And Kakine's resistances are basically his high regeneration.

No, i didn't mean resistance in that sense, we literally see that Kakine was able to block Accel's attacks multiple times and Kakine has no regen at that point anyway. I meant physical resistance.

Accusing me of calling you stupid when I did no such thing.

Yeah, after you accused me of pushing an agenda and then you implied i had said that you couldn't have an opinion.

Even then, i never said "you called me stupid", i said "we aren't stupid", so i didn't accuse you of anything, it was meant to be a "we know what we are doing". It may have been rude, but i don't think i was in the wrong given the context.

Look I don't know why you decided to be so rude really only you can answer that.

Yeah, i told you to shut up after YOU accused me of calling you a dictator or something, like you literally said i was accusing you of 4 different things that i didn't do at all.

I am not Buddha, if i get upset it will show, you literally didn't address any of the points i made and just entered an "you're accusing me"/"i can have my own opinion and you can't tell what other people should do" mode like if i was trying to brainwash you or something.

Scrlk666777

No it doesn't at all. Me saying no one should scale to Accelerator is not me putting in at an inaccessible level that only Accelerator should be put in. I even gave a good reason why it shouldn't be the case and it's not like I haven't got more reasons either. No you didn't though you basically just went on about how Gabriel is the one everyone should talk about and didn't give any valued points or rather counter arguments to anything I said.

Accelerator was holding back during his fight with Kakine, at least the first one. So it's not really known how much force was being put on attacks but when Accelerator did get serious kakine was easily defeated. So again it's not a very good scale and I will point to Elizard for this, no one is saying her stats should change because she fought a clearly holding back Accelerator. I mean then again like I said before I have been away for quite some time because I've been extremely busy so maybe that has been in discussion but as far as I can tell it hasn't. As for Kakine's fight even then when Accelerator was going all out his clones and his body was easily getting destroyed but because of his regeneration he was able to survive.

Also even if let's say Kakine did tank 7-B attacks or High 6-C attacks that still would not give him an AP stat of those numbers but a durability stat of those numbers. I suppose if that is the case then that's different and I suppose it is easier to scale a person's own durability to Accelerator's attacks but then again like I also said Accelerator was holding back during their first fight so even then it's hard to measure.

But AP itself is definitely hard to scale with Accelerator mostly because those that can defeat Accelerator is because they have some kind of Hax or power that bypasses his vector shield. So one can't really get a good measure of AP when against Accelerator.

You accused me first and you even admitted as such and it's not like this is the first time where you've tried to get a better stat for Kakine is it? You were forever arguing for it back when everyone commented on the wikia before moving to here.

Maybe you didn't mean to sound all dictator like but that's how you came across. Now I will admit I shouldn't have said you had an agenda either so we were both in the wrong for that.

But I do stand by my opinion and what gets me is that Accelerator was no back scaled solely on the basis that it was hard to scale anyone against Accelerator and the funny thing is that's just a problem in general.

XDragnoir

No you didn't though you basically just went on about how Gabriel is the one everyone should talk about and didn't give any valued points or rather counter arguments to anything I said.

I literally said "when the novel makes it clear when he is above, equal or below someone, Kakine while somewhat inferior still puts enough resistance to be in the same level."

I didn't talk about Gabriel at all there, so i have no idea what you're talking about.

Accelerator was holding back during his fight with Kakine, at least the first one. So it's not really known how much force was being put on attacks but when Accelerator did get serious kakine was easily defeated.

Accelerator is only ever stated to hold back a single time, that's when he appeared and saved Uiharu from Kakine, otherwise it's never implied he was holding back at all.

Accel was trying to kill Kakine, we know that much, so his attacks would be at max potency.

No, Kakine wasn't defeated when Accel got serious, Kakine was defeated after Accelerator analyzed Kakine's Dark Matter and used it against him, nothing about "getting serious" or even "going all out" happened.

So again it's not a very good scale and I will point to Elizard for this, no one is saying her stats should change because she fought a clearly holding back Accelerator.

Because she gets her current tier (High 6C) from other characters while the version of Accel she fought was a 4B one. Completely different situations, Accel never even attacked her with his own power iirc.

As for Kakine's fight even then when Accelerator was going all out his clones and his body was easily getting destroyed but because of his regeneration he was able to survive.

That's another debate entirely, NT7 Kakine and Accelerator are completely different from their OT15 versions which were the only ones i was arguing with you.

Also even if let's say Kakine did tank 7-B attacks or High 6-C attacks that still would not give him an AP stat of those numbers but a durability stat of those numbers.

They clashed multiple times, that would scale to both AP and Dura.

But AP itself is definitely hard to scale with Accelerator mostly because those that can defeat Accelerator is because they have some kind of Hax or power that bypasses his vector shield. So one can't really get a good measure of AP when against Accelerator.

Yes, that's right. The only thing wrong here is that defeating someone isn't needed to scale one character to the other, which you seem to have connected.

To scale to a character you can either block their attacks without serious injures or to damage them or in Kakine's case clash against an attack from your opponent with your own.

You accused me first and you even admitted as such and it's not like this is the first time where you've tried to get a better stat for Kakine is it? You were forever arguing for it back when everyone commented on the wikia before moving to here.

I didn't accuse you, you straight up said that no one should scale to him and i was explaining why that wasn't the case, but yeah, my bad for that.

As for getting a better stat... Meh, i am pretty sure i have since always been on the side that he and Accel are mostly equals, i don't remember ever trying to push him beyond it and i even disagreed with at least two upgrades that he got.

Accelerator was no back scaled solely on the basis that it was hard to scale anyone against Accelerator and the funny thing is that's just a problem in general.

More or less, the original idea by DT was to scale Kakine and Rensa to 5B and keep the backscaling as you saw in the OP, the problem as i said before was that both Gabriel and Kazakiri have fought and tanked attacks from Accel with killing intent that would in no way be Accel holding back, their case was much clearer than Kakine.

But as you know, if Gabriel is in one tier then Kanzaki, Acqua, Carissa and others will be there too.

Scrlk666777

Except for like I said resistances doesn't count for anything when judging AP and as I said Accelerator was holding back so it's unknown how force he was putting behind the attacks. It would be different if we had an exact force and we can judge on that but we just don't espeically in the first fight. Accelerator's most powerful attack is the plasma bomb which is where the 7-B rating came for his first key in the first place. The rest of his attacks should be lesser but we don't have a good measure of them to really know.

That's wrong because he held back throughout the whole fight because there was citizens there. If he had went all out it would mean possible casualties and he was also holding Kakine off long enough to analyse his dark matter and add it into his reflection white list. By the way Accelerator can still hold back and still go for the kill at the same time but he wasn't going to put other lives in danger to do it. If you believe Accelerator wasn't holding back you need to re-read OT 15 again because everyone who has read it knows Accelerator wasn't fighting with everything he had until after he felt he could. Accelerator also analysing Kakine's dark matter should not change anything except that he can reflect and manipulate the dark matter. It doesn't change the ferocity of Accelerator's attacks before or after just that Kakine has a lot less opportunity to bypass his vector shield. I'll leave the NT part because as you said that's another discussion.

There are others who gets their tier from another character but it's usually upgraded when they fight a character of a higher stat and win or at least fight on par with them. That's how it usually works. So why wouldn't the same work for Elizard?

it's not about the amount of times they clashes but making an argument that Accelerator was using attacks on that level in the first place against Kakine which is easily to argue against.

I'm not saying that at all nor have I connected as such but this again is where you are kind of missing the point entirely. Accelerator attacks for one varies and to be quite honest with you his profile should really say varies for all keys but I can also understand that leads to problems since it means too many high tier battles against Accelerator. I remember that we did do that once if I remember and we then had three tier 1 battles against Accelerator all which was a stomp in their favour due to tier 1's usually having a lot of hax power. To be honest I think I might bring up one day the possibility of doing Accelerator's profile more like Mikoto's where each attack has it's own tier in each keys. I don't know whether to bring it up soon or later because I know a lot of work is already needs to be done with the Index profiles. Accelerator's profile imo always needed the most work though.

It doesn't matter if you accused me straight out or not you still did and the tone and the wording still made that extremely clear. Just admit it and move on like I have it will be easier for us both.

Kakine and Accelerator aren't equals though and has never been shown to be. The only case you can argue is NT6 but that is more because Kakine has a psychological foothold over Accelerator during that fight. But every other fight Accelerator has always proven to be the more superior out of the two whether it was Accelerator fighting or Rensa using Accelerator's powers. Don't get me wrong I think Kakine has an awesome ability and he's definitely strong and who knows maybe one day he will truly be Accelerator's equal but Kakine has never beaten Accelerator in a fair one on one battle and came out on top or nearly beating Accelerator in anyway and he has never stood a chance against Accelerator's wing forms. He got easily taken down both times with black wings first by Accelerator and then by Rensa so shouldn't stand a chance against white or platinum wings which are stronger than the black ones. There is just nothing to suggest the two are equals at the moment but I wouldn't rule it out one day if Kakine does indeed make another appearance. I mean it's been so long.

See again this is why Accelerator shouldn't be scaled against or his whole profile needs to be fixed so that it factors in weaker attacks not on the level of his plasma bomb in his first key.

XDragnoir

Except for like I said resistances doesn't count for anything when judging AP

I already explained this, I was talking about physical resistance, not resistance to hax, literally just another word for durability.

Accelerator's most powerful attack is the plasma bomb which is where the 7-B rating came for his first key in the first place. The rest of his attacks should be lesser but we don't have a good measure of them to really know.

That's a problem on how we index his stats, if you want to you could create a CRT about that to change Accel's stats to something akin to "X tier with most attacks, 7B with Plasma Bomb", i could actually agree with that.

That's wrong because he held back throughout the whole fight because there was citizens there.

Never stated, he was paying attention to his surroundings so that no one would die, that's true, but it's never stated or even implied that doing this diminished his power or was causing him to hold back after the first attack against Kakine.

Thinking back, the first sneak attack could have been much more powerful. But if that was the case, Last Order’s companion at that time would also have been hurt.
This was his way of doing things.
Even in a death match between the #1 and #2 Level 5s, even on a battlefield where a slight mistake could get you killed, Accelerator protected the normal people who he had never met before.

It explicitly only talks about the first attack, not their entire fight.

holding Kakine off long enough to analyse his dark matter and add it into his reflection white list.

Question, are you saying that Accel was intentionally holding back to analyse Dark Matter? Cause i don't see that being the case at all, he had no interest in extending that fight and quite literally nearly killed Kakine at some points.

If you believe Accelerator wasn't holding back you need to re-read OT 15 again because everyone who has read it knows Accelerator wasn't fighting with everything he had until after he felt he could.

Or you can give me any quote that supports your claims, cause after reading it it's clear that Accel wasn't holding back, he was paying attention to his surroundings which is very different from holding back.

Accelerator also analysing Kakine's dark matter should not change anything except that he can reflect and manipulate the dark matter. It doesn't change the ferocity of Accelerator's attacks before or after just that Kakine has a lot less opportunity to bypass his vector shield.

You read the fight, you know Accelerator literally used Kakine's wings to stab him, right? And that all other attacks he used were mostly blocked.

The fight was literally being like: "shit, he is blocking all of my attacks and is bypassing my reflection" > Accel analyses Dark Matter > "Now i can perfectly reflect your attacks"

There are others who gets their tier from another character but it's usually upgraded when they fight a character of a higher stat and win or at least fight on par with them. That's how it usually works. So why wouldn't the same work for Elizard?

Cause Elizard didn't fight with Accel directly. Accel was standing there the whole fight and didn't attack a single time by himself iirc, while Elizard herself only attacked using spatial hax.

it's not about the amount of times they clashes but making an argument that Accelerator was using attacks on that level in the first place against Kakine which is easily to argue against.

I mean, that connects with what i said above about doing a CRT to change his stats. Like, Kakine scales to the attacks Accel used against him, if you can downgrade Accel's attacks then you will also downgrade Kakine.

I'm not saying that at all nor have I connected as such but this again is where you are kind of missing the point entirely. Accelerator attacks for one varies and to be quite honest with you his profile should really say varies for all keys but I can also understand that leads to problems since it means too many high tier battles against Accelerator. I remember that we did do that once if I remember and we then had three tier 1 battles against Accelerator all which was a stomp in their favour due to tier 1's usually having a lot of hax power. To be honest I think I might bring up one day the possibility of doing Accelerator's profile more like Mikoto's where each attack has it's own tier in each keys. I don't know whether to bring it up soon or later because I know a lot of work is already needs to be done with the Index profiles. Accelerator's profile imo always needed the most work though.

I think i have already told DT i wanted to change Accel to something like that and he didn't agree with it iirc.

It doesn't matter if you accused me straight out or not you still did and the tone and the wording still made that extremely clear. Just admit it and move on like I have it will be easier for us both.

Yeah, my bad.

Kakine and Accelerator aren't equals though and has never been shown to be. The only case you can argue is NT6 but that is more because Kakine has a psychological foothold over Accelerator during that fight. But every other fight Accelerator has always proven to be the more superior out of the two.

Like, i think i could have made it clearer but i was only talking about their base forms from OT15, i am well aware that Kakine isn't as strong as Platinum Wings.

See again this is why Accelerator shouldn't be scaled against or his whole profile needs to be fixed so that it factors in weaker attacks not on the level of his plasma bomb in his first key.

Yeah, i agree.

Scrlk666777

What physical resistance? Can you elaborate?

I might do just that. I think it's needed.

No I'm saying Accelerator was holding back because of the people around them and because he had to be more careful due to Kakine's DM being able to bypass his vector shield at the time so he had to fight while both protecting other people and as he figured out Kakine's DM.
It doesn't need to, just from that alone it should be obvious that Accelerator won't go all out when other people could be put in danger. Accelerator could have done a lot more damage if he had chosen to and could have likely beaten Kakine a lot quicker and sooner if he hadn't cared about anyone around him besides from Last Order. Things don't always need to be said out right, the scene and the personality of the character should fill in the blanks.

So are you really trying to argue here that Kakine of all people has 5-B durability because he managed to block a couple of Accelerator attacks which wasn't even anywhere near his strongest? Come on? And then you're trying to argue that Kakine's DM was stronger?

Well it's not really downgrading Accelerator, just giving him some attacks that are more weaker at times. That sucks but I suppose it is easier to do so with Mikoto as she actually has signature moves like her railgun etc. Accelerator on the other hand has no such thing so I can understand why maybe DT was against it although I don't know what reason they gave. I was thinking about proposing Varies up to (enter the tier here). But I don't think DT likes the varies idea either and has denied all suggestions of it so far with others but I think they usually want the Varies with whatever vectors are available but I think maybe if we have varies but with a limit then it might be different. Doubt it but I guess I can try. Why is Accelerator's power such a headache?

I suppose though thinking about it you can have two characters on the same tier and one can still be much stronger. So maybe at the end of it I'm sweating the smaller details too much. I still don't believe Kakine is on Accelerator's level and still believe that his profile needs a more lengthy discussion.

XDragnoir

Physical resistance such as blocking the shockwave with his wings, or countering an attack by that tornado wings with his own wing attacks

So are you really trying to argue here that Kakine of all people has 5-B durability because he managed to block a couple of Accelerator attacks which wasn't even anywhere near his strongest? Come on? And then you're trying to argue that Kakine's DM was stronger?

First, 5B attack potency is being removed from Accel's earlier keys.

Second, he is as strong as the attacks he countered (as i explained above), that's what i agree with, the AP of those attacks is what needs revision as we have been agreeing.

When did i say DM was stronger? Like, when? DM was a nuisance with the right things to fight against Accel, i NEVER SAID it was straight up stronger.

Scrlk666777

Which is stupid because the 5-B is only being removed because of the likes of Kakine. Though I don't think I'm against it in general as I think I was one of those who wasn't sold on the back scaling thing but I can't really remember so it could be that I was but I do remember not really agreeing with the arguments.

I do understand where you're coming from now though I still think even though he was able to resist attacks at first he still was easily defeated in the end when Accelerator was able to go all out so either their needs to be a discussion on whether Kakine should get the same tier as Accelerator or figure out his own tier from what information we have or change Accelerator's stat from just 7-B to 7-B, likely higher (defeated Kakine), High 6-C with black wings.

XDragnoir

Kakine is one of the most ridiculous to have scaling at 5B yes, but we would also have 5B Kanzaki, Acqua, Knight Leader, Elizard, etc.

Again, being easily defeated isn't really an important point in this case as his defeat didn't happen after Accel threw a stronger attack, it had way more context to it.

Also, just to explain, "7B, likely higher" wouldn't be the right thing to index as Accel is the base for 7B, so him defeating Kakine wouldn't grant him "likely higher"

Scrlk666777

That's your opinion not fact. Accelerator did defeat Kakine because he used a stronger attack and then Kakine shouldn't have the 7-B rating at all if that is the case. He needs to have his own stats that are comparable to what he has shown not he has definitely not shown any feats on level of being 7-B.

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