VS Battles Wiki Forum

Uh...Ok? Happy to help however I can.

Hey, uh, did you need anything from me? Still happy to answer anything I can if you still want me to.

Pardon my ingles what's the reason for Outer Extension being equal to the Mystery?

I assume you're referring to a comment I made on the Lovecraft CRT a little while back?

Well, it's pretty simple in terms of this wiki, more involved when it comes to lore. The wiki part is that all of the explanations for "The Ultimate Mystery" are at least partly based on the revelations Randolph Carter has in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, about archetypes, intersecting angles of reality, and the illusion of reality. However, there is a passage among the ones on the wiki that is not quoted on the explanation page, and it reveals that much of the revelation Carter has would have happened in the Outer Extension except that 'Umr At-Tawil was using its magic to keep this from happening so that he'd be stable enough to perform the rituals of the Silver Key. Because of what other passages tell us about Archetypes, we have to assume that the division of Archetypes via "angles of intersection" happens outside of the Ultimate Void, and is a much earlier part of reality than currently assumed. Given how much of the section on The Ultimate Mystery uses multiplicity and the division of individuality on the current wiki, I don't think it's a huge logical leap to simply apply the tiering earlier, if a lower division of the tier, when so much of the stuff actually happens much earlier in the Mythos' reality hierarchy.

I actually did make a small blog post about this on the main wiki, if you care to read it. Though it doesn't say a whole lot of info, it's a bit short.

I am paraphrasing slightly, due to a lack of evidence or scans, but here's the thing.

Universe (High 1-B) < Greater Multiverse (Low 1-A) < Outer Extension (Low 1-A) < Limitless Vacua / Gates (1-A+) < Ultimate Void (High 1-A) < Ultimate Mystery (0) < The Supreme Archetype (0)

Um, I have no idea what you're talking about. And if you actually read what I typed, I didn't argue the Outer Extension to be Tier-0 (I thought I did when you brought it up because you said I did, but I'm not sure where I'm supposed to have said it. Pretty sure I also would have qualified it with statements like "my opinion" and "not seen this way on this wiki"). In my blog, which represents my current opinion on the subject, said it was High Tier-1A and that because of that, the Ultimate Void/Ultimate Gate should be Tier-0 due to transcending the Extension by an indefinably amount, and the "Ultimate Mytery"/Supreme Gods should be above baseline 0 for similar reasons.

Now...what went "well"? Seriously, what are you talking about? Gonna suggest a CRT or something?

You don't have any idea why?

So, unless I'm wrong, that should put the Extension beyond the First Gate at Tier 0, with the Ultimate Void, Ultimate Gods, and Supreme Archetype/Yog-Sothoth many levels above baseline Tier 0 due to how far they transcend the First Gate. Also, not as a change of tier or anything, but when the story mentions that Yog-Sothoth, The Beyond One, and the Untranslateable Sign are merely fragments of the true being, they're not saying that the being known as Yog-Sothoth is a fragment of a greater being, they're saying that the descriptions and titles of the being cannot hope to describe it accurately as it is beyond the concepts language is able to describe. Plus, the archetypal existence would clearly be the First Gate-level of reality and not the ultimate level of totality, that being the existence of the Ultimate Gods.

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Ok, yeah, I kind of forgot about that. Mostly because after talking to Ultima, I decided that I didn't need to pursue anything because revisions were coming anyway. You seem to be ignoring what I say for the most part. I'm not doing a CRT, I'm clearly not pushing my thoughts here, and frankly, your question at the start of this makes no sense given I had already explained myself in the quote you posted. You seem to have some kind of agenda, but I can't fathom what it is, because you're not actually debating or presenting counter-evidence or anything. You're just saying my reasoning is bad without reason and claiming some kind of victory, though you edited your post to get rid of that bit, I see.

Look, if you actually have something material to discuss, great, I'm happy to debate or explain. But right now I'm guessing you have some verse that you think is better/stronger than the Cthulhu Mythos and you're looking for supporting info/confidence in your stance. But unless I make a thread or a CRT, my personal opinion means pretty much nothing, so trying to get one over on me makes very little sense. You're not an admin, this is clearly not some "official" probe about the possibility of changing anything, so again I'm going to ask: what is it you want? Because right now you're just being frustratingly vague.

And a note: I genuinely did forget the quoted post. I have some medical conditions and a lot of medications that affect my memory, among other things. I am not trying to be two-faced or lie about anything. Sorry I forgot about the post on Ultima's profile.

If you want my current opinions in their most explained state, my blog on the wiki is probably your best bet.

I'm clearly not pushing my thoughts here, and frankly, your question at the start of this makes no sense given I had already explained myself in the quote you posted. You seem to have some kind of agenda, but I can't fathom what it is, because you're not actually debating or presenting counter-evidence or anything. You're just saying my reasoning is bad without reason and claiming some kind of victory, though you edited your post to get rid of that bit, I see.

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There must be some misunderstanding, cause I'm just asking you a question. I'm just saying what it looks like. But you're completely off the point.

I'm guessing you have some verse that you think is better/stronger than the Cthulhu Mythos and you're looking for supporting info/confidence in your stance.

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Oh, please, you could not be more off base.

I have some medical conditions and a lot of medications that affect my memory, among other things. I am not trying to be two-faced or lie about anything. Sorry I forgot about the post on Ultima's profile.

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My condolences, I hope you're alright. Anyways, no apology necessary about the misunderstanding that is between us. It's fine.

There must be some misunderstanding, cause I'm just asking you a question. I'm just saying what it looks like. But you're completely off the point.

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Oh, please, you could not be more off base.

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Ok, one: you can't expect me not to think something like that when you clearly posted, then removed, yourself saying "this went well" after deciding you didn't agree with my position. Two: yes, you asked me a question, but you asked with no context and apparently no intent to present any information on your position. Third: I can't get off the point when there doesn't seem to be one outside of just telling me you think I'm wrong, especially with this being on my profile and thus not locked to a topic like an actual thread.

As far as I can tell, I've answered your question. Whether it was to your satisfaction I don't know. If you have other questions, I'd ask you to read my blog before asking me.

Ok, one: you can't expect me not to think something like that when you clearly posted, then removed, yourself saying "this went well" after deciding you didn't agree with my position.

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Maybe it was just a little miss communication. It's not what I'm said; I'm just just saying "This couldn't have worked out better." which is referring to Tier 0 Outer Extension, but then I removed it because It just seems very, very odd. I mean to say "It doesn't meet the requirements to be Tier 0" This was the wrong engagement from the start.

Two: yes, you asked me a question, but you asked with no context and apparently no intent to present any information on your position.

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well i am not an long-time grimdark fans so that's more of a rhetoric question but still

you're looking for supporting info/confidence in your stance.

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no

Yes...it was just a simple question, but I'd already answered it. I wrote 2+ paragraphs laying out my argument for why I thought the way I did, plus a full blog post later. If you were looking for additional reasons or further justification, you didn't make that very clear. I think my argument is very simple and straightforward: the Cthulhu Mythos wiki page uses a number of justifications for rating the Ultimate Mystery at Tier 0. There are passages from the same work being quoted that indicate much of what is used actually applies to the Outer Extension and was being actively prevented from affecting the protagonist by 'Umr At-Tawil. Since those things are used to justify a Tier-0, then applying that same logic to the idea that those things actually begin much earlier than the top level of the Mythos' reality, then it should logically have the same or at least a very close ranking like High 1-A. Personally, I think the information does suggest the Outer Extension is Tier 0, but I'd only push so far as High 1-A in any hypothetical discussion about changes.

At the very least, there are some big gaps in the explanation page that need to be addressed even if nothing about the tiers changes. Other gaps include multiple references to beings of the Mythos being outside of Einsteinian physics, mathematical description, and the absolute existence of the Gods that should be addressed so that people like me don't have to wonder if there should be a change recommended based on the information currently missing from the explanation page. I think it adds up to at least some tier changes, and when the next CRT rolls around I intend to bring up my concerns. I also think there's good evidence that shows the Cthulhu Mythos to reach at least as high into Tier 0 as the World of Darkness, Unsong, and Twin Peaks based on the language used to justify the rankings of said verses. But that's all explained in a blog post I'm updating and expanding currently.

If there's anything specific about my opinion that you're interested in or that you feel I haven't explained properly, let me know. But I can't really explain more than I have without the direction of what you're seeking. And you don't have to agree. That's fine; most people on here don't agree with my opinions and plenty seem to hold them in open contempt. It's kind of an occupational hazard with having strong opinions in general, but especially on a subject of interest to a website based on arguing, when it comes down to it.

This may be a lame question for indicating reachability, either in person or over the phone.

In person? Uh...k, lol.

What questions? I don't mind answering questions, I just like to know why.

What is the Mystery?

I only invite you to reflect on them, we can discuss about it later.