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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

Rjdami said:
He also actively negged all the ghost riders including Robbie Reyes all rider simultaneously . He didn't use runes or story magic against them too.

As for wanda, while her inherit freedom might make it seem she would be resistant to his story manipulation, you have to remember her patronage scales to the never queen while loki is actively connected to the House of ideas directly, actively called the story teller by Toaa himself. I just feel most writers and most debaters would just place loki above wanda, unless Steve Orlando is writing the book then probably a stalemate.

Also , he has that eternity mask thing.
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Yeah, but I didn't claim Loki's weak without story magic, just that Loki's most OP ability reduces to his control over narratives. It's not necessarily saying he's useless without it, but it is what fundamentally makes him come so far in these powerscaling forums. Him being The God of Stories in the first place is his literal schtick, so suffice to say, it's pretty transparent.

As for the cosmological scaling, yes, he's connected to The House of Ideas in the sense that all stories "come" from The House of Ideas and he is someone who manipulates stories, but this argument about him ranking above Wanda fails in comparison, since it's the equivalent of Wanda being connected to possibility, and possibility also comes from The House of Ideas, representing the literal potential for all or any stories. Never Queen might be Wanda's patronage but possibility and everything in her realm by association is all that comes directly from TOAA, so like, cosmologically, there's no reason Loki is above Wanda. In fact, it's kind of the opposite, since wielding possibility means wielding limitless potential for anything to happen in stories, as shown in Defenders Beyond #4, and that's exactly why The Griever wanted to erase Wanda, since Wanda posed to overthrow the pre-determined ending of all stories. Being able to edit stories on the level of disrupting an "abstracts" role in the story is a way higher ceiling.

Also, I disagree with Orlando only "pushing" Wanda. He happens to write her solo series, so evidently, readers feel more of the powerscaling, as the story centers around Wanda, but other significant writers who've detailed Marvel's cosmology or are known for their major contributions also favor Wanda. Ewing was the same person who recently said that Wanda could have broken the story-magic Amora casted on Thor, which is the same spell said to be so powerful it was amped by the belief of the readers of Marvel, and even God of Stories Loki couldn't break it. Kieron Gillen made Wanda not only nearly "bust" the planet in AvX, but also implied Wanda could erase the entire Brood race throughout the entire galaxy in Immortal X-Men.

I think Loki VS Wanda is just something that can go either way, and it's not something definite, although I myself think Wanda's hype is more.
 
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Rjdami said:
Blood hunt tie ins like the black panther one were very interesting, one world under doom was mediocre, Avengers Armageddon seems to be closer in quality to blood hunt though
Click to expand...
I kind of just hope the recent changes in Marvel Editorial lead to more competent writing for their events, because I want stories with actual narrative consequences and lasting ramifications. Marvel keeps announcing events that'll supposedly change everything, but these days it feels more like bait than anything of real importance. With Civil War, Disassembled, House of M, and Fall of X, you could at least see the repercussions.
 
Lucio_Ellard said:
Yeah, but I didn't claim Loki's weak without story magic, just that Loki's most OP ability reduces to his control over narratives. It's not necessarily saying he's useless without it, but it is what fundamentally makes him come so far in these powerscaling forums. Him being The God of Stories in the first place is his literal schtick, so suffice to say, it's pretty transparent.

As for the cosmological scaling, yes, he's connected to The House of Ideas in the sense that all stories "come" from The House of Ideas and he is someone who manipulates stories, but this argument about him ranking above Wanda fails in comparison, since it's the equivalent of Wanda being connected to possibility, and possibility also comes from The House of Ideas, representing the literal potential for all or any stories. Never Queen might be Wanda's patronage but possibility and everything in her realm by association is all that comes directly from TOAA, so like, cosmologically, there's no reason Loki is above Wanda. In fact, it's kind of the opposite, since wielding possibility means wielding limitless potential for anything to happen in stories, as shown in Defenders Beyond #4, and that's exactly why The Griever wanted to erase Wanda, since Wanda posed to overthrow the pre-determined ending of all stories. Being able to edit stories on the level of disrupting an "abstracts" role in the story is a way higher ceiling.

Also, I disagree with Orlando only "pushing" Wanda. He happens to write her solo series, so evidently, readers feel more of the powerscaling, as the story centers around Wanda, but other significant writers who've detailed Marvel's cosmology or are known for their major contributions also favor Wanda. Ewing was the same person who recently said that Wanda could have broken the story-magic Amora casted on Thor, which is the same spell said to be so powerful it was amped by the belief of the readers of Marvel, and even God of Stories Loki couldn't break it. Kieron Gillen made Wanda not only nearly "bust" the planet in AvX, but also implied Wanda could erase the entire Brood race throughout the entire galaxy in Immortal X-Men.

I think Loki VS Wanda is just something that can go either way, and it's not something definite, although I myself think Wanda's hype is more.
Click to expand...
I mean, we have some writers letting a non god of stories loki turn wanda into a cat, we also some like the writer of strange tale had Hela stomp Wanda with ease, Orlando himself straight up refused to answer if Wanda could defend against loki story manipulation.

Wanda doesn't have the best feat without chain scaling, Wanda to what? griever? is the best we can go who isn't all that as abstracts go due to her weakness to mundane stuff; and wanda still needed a lot of help against her or maybe elder gods? cos she beat oshtur outside her realm and could technically beat Chthon via some shenanigans but Loki outright was shown to be comparable to Nyx without using story magic, his runes alone has been very potent , removing the All - power, that thor had to use a special belt to defend against Loki's rune craft. Plus he's the only character to have been closest to true freedom aside from beyonder, and I'm not talking about some possibility never queen bs cos they're all still bound by House of ideas, meanwhile loki could have removed himself from House of ideas influence but chose to go back into eternity to free everyone else. I mean what beyonder did in defenders beyond is something loki could have done too . Wanda has never gotten close to that level of scaling.

we also have some feat of him from Avengers: in the veracity trap where an older version of loki was straight up immune to the writers trying to change him and can fool them with his disguise and stuff hahaha

I see loki as her superior in all ways and has more knowledge and skill with magic that she can't hope to comprehend.

We also don't know where she would scale after the whole sorcerer supreme stuff cos prior to that she admitted inferiority to sorcerer supreme magic in One world under Doom.
 
Rjdami said:
I mean, we have some writers letting a non god of stories loki turn wanda into a cat, we also some like the writer of strange tale had Hela stomp Wanda with ease, Orlando himself straight up refused to answer if Wanda could defend against loki story manipulation.
Click to expand...
I feel like you're leaving out too much context and misframing instances by citing what happened in the comics without any explanation. Wanda wasn't transformed by Loki into a cat, not in a way relating to power levels. It was a filler, comedic issue showing Wanda brewing a magic potion, and Loki sneezing his magic into it, causing the potion to be improperly brewed and turning her into a cat. That's all that happened.

At the end of the same issue, Wanda and Thor trap Loki in a cage after he gets caught throwing the potion at other Marvel heroes. Are we using that as evidence that Wanda and Thor are above God of Stories Loki too? I hope not.

Hela did in fact beat Wanda, but within the same story, Karnilla beat Strange, Amora messed with Hulk's mind, and Hela casually swatted Hulk. It also happened before Wanda fought Griever, and when she sealed away Chthon in her soul, making her weakened. The timing of the comic, and when it takes place shouldn't be used to invalidate a much more "stronger" version of the character, when we also know she was specifically nerfed by an Elder God. Also, Wanda had the best performance from anyone on the team against Hela, including from Strange, and Hulk, so take that as you will.

Rjdami said:
Wanda doesn't have the best feat without chain scaling, Wanda to what? griever? is the best we can go who isn't all that as abstracts go due to her weakness to mundane stuff; and wanda still needed a lot of help against her or maybe elder gods? cos she beat oshtur outside her realm and could technically beat Chthon via some shenanigans but Loki outright was shown to be comparable to Nyx without using story magic, his runes alone has been very potent , removing the All - power, that thor had to use a special belt to defend against Loki's rune craft. Plus he's the only character to have been closest to true freedom aside from beyonder, and I'm not talking about some possibility never queen bs cos they're all still bound by House of ideas, meanwhile loki could have removed himself from House of ideas influence but chose to go back into eternity to free everyone else. I mean what beyonder did in defenders beyond is something loki could have done too . Wanda has never gotten close to that level of scaling.
Click to expand...
What help did Wanda need with the Elder Gods? Off the comics, she not only banished The Vishanti in the astral realm, a realm made by Oshtur, but she literally just one-shot the same Oshtur with a Galaxy(Using only her finger-tips to blow it off even more). She then beat Shuma Gorath, a Great Old One explicitly stated to be the strongest of his kind, just in her last mini. More recently, she literally trapped Chthon in a universe of her own making.

Loki is also nowhere near Elder Gods. Utgard-Loki, and the other Utgard Gods are shown to be vastly more powerful then he is in Immortal Thor. Gaea made the prophecy stating only Thor could save Midgard and all of existence from the Elder Gods, which is why Loki needed to test Thor under different trials so he could become powerful enough to face them at the end. Loki actually needed the power of Eternity, a piece of him, just to defeat Kemur himself. Wanda on the other hand is stated to not only be above Elder Gods, but is able to directly defeat and and overpower the same species of Elder Gods with her own power. Her performance against Elder Gods actually reinforces Loki is weaker than her, since Loki's routinely struggled with them.

Furthermore, Loki doesn't have "freedom", and him being close to achieving it is irrelevant, because in the end, he choose not to transcend the multiverse, making it redundant to the discussion, as he never obtained any form of "freedom". He confined himself back into the box of reality, as he himself said in the very own comic by reentering the multiverse. Conversely, Wanda is possibility, she embodies freedom in nature, and in existence, she doesn't need to "obtain" it. She was born with freedom. It's why she outclasses him on paper, at least cosmologically/metaphysically.

Rjdami said:
I see loki as her superior in all ways and has more knowledge and skill with magic that she can't hope to comprehend.

We also don't know where she would scale after the whole sorcerer supreme stuff cos prior to that she admitted inferiority to sorcerer supreme magic in One world under Doom.
Click to expand...
I agree Loki has more skill, since Wanda's chaos magic isn't something compatible with finesse. Knowledge? Not really. Wanda now possesses all of the knowledge of The Darkhold, and The Darkhold is one of the greatest tomes of knowledge for magic in Marvel.

In One World Under Doom, Sorcerer Supreme magic was also amplified and boosted astronomically by the life force of millions of citizens in Latveria. In the same issue, it was later revealed that Doom wasn't only using Sorcerer Supreme magic, but also other forms of magic with preparation, such as blood magic, time magic, and chaos magic. The feat isn't applicable to standard Sorcerer Supreme magic.

Additionally, Doom said in the One World Under Doom Avengers tie-in that Wanda was holding back her power immensely. If Wanda can defeat the Vishanti, the same entities empowering the role of Sorcerer Supreme, then Sorcerer Supreme magic alone is clearly not above her.
 
Lucio_Ellard said:
I know, but Hulk is also just "the strongest" in the verse....it's kind of hard to argue against him, usually.
Click to expand...
You could argue base hulk will always lose to potent magic users and potent cosmic beings, including against people like Thor(who actually use his powers instead of brawling) and loki, loki even drained immortal hulk casually already. While he is unmatched in strength you'd have to play by his level to actually lose, why trade blows when you can freeze him in time forever, or drain his power like loki did

Loki oneshot devil hulk
 
Lucio_Ellard said:
I feel like you're leaving out too much context and misframing instances by citing what happened in the comics without any explanation. Wanda wasn't transformed by Loki into a cat, not in a way relating to power levels. It was a filler, comedic issue showing Wanda brewing a magic potion, and Loki sneezing his magic into it, causing the potion to be improperly brewed and turning her into a cat. That's all that happened.

At the end of the same issue, Wanda and Thor trap Loki in a cage after he gets caught throwing the potion at other Marvel heroes. Are we using that as evidence that Wanda and Thor are above God of Stories Loki too? I hope not.

Hela did in fact beat Wanda, but within the same story, Karnilla beat Strange, Amora messed with Hulk's mind, and Hela casually swatted Hulk. It also happened before Wanda fought Griever, and when she sealed away Chthon in her soul, making her weakened. The timing of the comic, and when it takes place shouldn't be used to invalidate a much more "stronger" version of the character, when we also know she was specifically nerfed by an Elder God. Also, Wanda had the best performance from anyone on the team against Hela, including from Strange, and Hulk, so take that as you will.


What help did Wanda need with the Elder Gods? Off the comics, she not only banished The Vishanti in the astral realm, a realm made by Oshtur, but she literally just one-shot the same Oshtur with a Galaxy(Using only her finger-tips to blow it off even more). She then beat Shuma Gorath, a Great Old One explicitly stated to be the strongest of his kind, just in her last mini. More recently, she literally trapped Chthon in a universe of her own making.

Loki is also nowhere near Elder Gods. Utgard-Loki, and the other Utgard Gods are shown to be vastly more powerful then he is in Immortal Thor. Gaea made the prophecy stating only Thor could save Midgard and all of existence from the Elder Gods, which is why Loki needed to test Thor under different trials so he could become powerful enough to face them at the end. Loki actually needed the power of Eternity, a piece of him, just to defeat Kemur himself. Wanda on the other hand is stated to not only be above Elder Gods, but is able to directly defeat and and overpower the same species of Elder Gods with her own power. Her performance against Elder Gods actually reinforces Loki is weaker than her, since Loki's routinely struggled with them.

Furthermore, Loki doesn't have "freedom", and him being close to achieving it is irrelevant, because in the end, he choose not to transcend the multiverse, making it redundant to the discussion, as he never obtained any form of "freedom". He confined himself back into the box of reality, as he himself said in the very own comic by reentering the multiverse. Conversely, Wanda is possibility, she embodies freedom in nature, and in existence, she doesn't need to "obtain" it. She was born with freedom. It's why she outclasses him on paper, at least cosmologically/metaphysically.


I agree Loki has more skill, since Wanda's chaos magic isn't something compatible with finesse. Knowledge? Not really. Wanda now possesses all of the knowledge of The Darkhold, and The Darkhold is one of the greatest tomes of knowledge for magic in Marvel.

In One World Under Doom, Sorcerer Supreme magic was also amplified and boosted astronomically by the life force of millions of citizens in Latveria. In the same issue, it was later revealed that Doom wasn't only using Sorcerer Supreme magic, but also other forms of magic with preparation, such as blood magic, time magic, and chaos magic. The feat isn't applicable to standard Sorcerer Supreme magic.

Additionally, Doom said in the One World Under Doom Avengers tie-in that Wanda was holding back her power immensely. If Wanda can defeat the Vishanti, the same entities empowering the role of Sorcerer Supreme, then Sorcerer Supreme magic alone is clearly not above her.
Click to expand...
That wasn't God of stories loki, yes I know it's a joke comic but just showing how base level loki can affect wands pretty casually. That wasn't the skald aspect of him.

As for elder gods, wanda beating chthon was always via a loop hole, not in raw power and chthon barely has any good feat on his own without statements, as for loki needing the eternity mask to slay Kemur, well that was the strongest elder god and his piece of the eternity mask is part of his base gear , skald loki actively never tried to fight in most of the immortal thor comics,we saw that against zeus and nyx too; just stood there, so it's hard to see if he could outright kill elder gods or not.

As for shuma gorath, not only has he been reduced in status since marvel named him gargatos, he's also been a different type of entity, we actually saw a more classical Shuma gorath in conan non marvel book,(he who sleeps but shall awake and all; so its clear marvel doesnt own the story and lore of classic shuma gorath anymore) he was depicted very accurately to the classic shuma than orlando gargatos/shuma, marvel doesn't seem to retain the same character and while wanda did hurt gargatos, she couldn't exactly stop him as he was reforming before he got absorbed by other old ones which alone says he isn't even the greatest of the old ones in the current incarnation .

Next freedom; loki is the skald of all realms, there's no realm in marvel where he doesn't have a say including the realm of possibility. But let's agree to disagree.

One world under doom; while true that Doom was practicing rituals and stuff Wanda on panel stated it was due to the Sorcerer Supreme magic and authority itself , we saw while Doom was amped he still wasn't as great as even dr strange, he couldn't do anything against dormammu lol, couldn't get the noticed of the vishanti etc.

As for Wanda as Sorcerer Supreme amp , I don't think she's ever beaten dormammu in a straight up match until she became Sorcerer Supreme too, I've never seen it, they always have to be some contexts always, again its really hard to not say Wanda is closer to dr strange than he is to loki, all actively top 3 rn but I place loki at number 1 due to experience and hax.
 
Lucio_Ellard said:
I feel like you're leaving out too much context and misframing instances by citing what happened in the comics without any explanation. Wanda wasn't transformed by Loki into a cat, not in a way relating to power levels. It was a filler, comedic issue showing Wanda brewing a magic potion, and Loki sneezing his magic into it, causing the potion to be improperly brewed and turning her into a cat. That's all that happened.

At the end of the same issue, Wanda and Thor trap Loki in a cage after he gets caught throwing the potion at other Marvel heroes. Are we using that as evidence that Wanda and Thor are above God of Stories Loki too? I hope not.

Hela did in fact beat Wanda, but within the same story, Karnilla beat Strange, Amora messed with Hulk's mind, and Hela casually swatted Hulk. It also happened before Wanda fought Griever, and when she sealed away Chthon in her soul, making her weakened. The timing of the comic, and when it takes place shouldn't be used to invalidate a much more "stronger" version of the character, when we also know she was specifically nerfed by an Elder God. Also, Wanda had the best performance from anyone on the team against Hela, including from Strange, and Hulk, so take that as you will.


What help did Wanda need with the Elder Gods? Off the comics, she not only banished The Vishanti in the astral realm, a realm made by Oshtur, but she literally just one-shot the same Oshtur with a Galaxy(Using only her finger-tips to blow it off even more). She then beat Shuma Gorath, a Great Old One explicitly stated to be the strongest of his kind, just in her last mini. More recently, she literally trapped Chthon in a universe of her own making.

Loki is also nowhere near Elder Gods. Utgard-Loki, and the other Utgard Gods are shown to be vastly more powerful then he is in Immortal Thor. Gaea made the prophecy stating only Thor could save Midgard and all of existence from the Elder Gods, which is why Loki needed to test Thor under different trials so he could become powerful enough to face them at the end. Loki actually needed the power of Eternity, a piece of him, just to defeat Kemur himself. Wanda on the other hand is stated to not only be above Elder Gods, but is able to directly defeat and and overpower the same species of Elder Gods with her own power. Her performance against Elder Gods actually reinforces Loki is weaker than her, since Loki's routinely struggled with them.

Furthermore, Loki doesn't have "freedom", and him being close to achieving it is irrelevant, because in the end, he choose not to transcend the multiverse, making it redundant to the discussion, as he never obtained any form of "freedom". He confined himself back into the box of reality, as he himself said in the very own comic by reentering the multiverse. Conversely, Wanda is possibility, she embodies freedom in nature, and in existence, she doesn't need to "obtain" it. She was born with freedom. It's why she outclasses him on paper, at least cosmologically/metaphysically.


I agree Loki has more skill, since Wanda's chaos magic isn't something compatible with finesse. Knowledge? Not really. Wanda now possesses all of the knowledge of The Darkhold, and The Darkhold is one of the greatest tomes of knowledge for magic in Marvel.

In One World Under Doom, Sorcerer Supreme magic was also amplified and boosted astronomically by the life force of millions of citizens in Latveria. In the same issue, it was later revealed that Doom wasn't only using Sorcerer Supreme magic, but also other forms of magic with preparation, such as blood magic, time magic, and chaos magic. The feat isn't applicable to standard Sorcerer Supreme magic.

Additionally, Doom said in the One World Under Doom Avengers tie-in that Wanda was holding back her power immensely. If Wanda can defeat the Vishanti, the same entities empowering the role of Sorcerer Supreme, then Sorcerer Supreme magic alone is clearly not above her.
Click to expand...
That wasn't God of stories loki, yes I know it's a joke comic but just showing how base level loki can affect wands pretty casually. That wasn't the skald aspect of him.

As for elder gods, wanda beating chthon was always via a loop hole, not in raw power and chthon barely has any good feat on his own without statements, as for loki needing the eternity mask to slay Kemur, well that was the strongest elder god and his piece of the eternity mask is part of his base gear , skald loki actively never tried to fight in most of the immortal thor comics,we saw that against zeus and nyx too; just stood there, so it's hard to see if he could outright kill elder gods or not.

As for shuma gorath, not only has he been reduced in status since marvel named him gargatos, he's also been a different type of entity, we actually saw a more classical Shuma gorath in conan non marvel book,(he who sleeps but shall awake and all; so its clear marvel doesnt own the story and lore of classic shuma gorath anymore) he was depicted very accurately to the classic shuma than orlando gargatos/shuma, marvel doesn't seem to retain the same character and while wanda did hurt gargatos, she couldn't exactly stop him as he was reforming before he got absorbed by other old ones which alone says he isn't even the greatest of the old ones in the current incarnation .

Next freedom; loki is the skald of all realms, there's no realm in marvel where he doesn't have a say including the realm of possibility. But let's agree to disagree.

One world under doom; while true that Doom was practicing rituals and stuff Wanda on panel stated it was due to the Sorcerer Supreme magic and authority itself , we saw while Doom was amped he still wasn't as great as even dr strange, he couldn't do anything against dormammu lol, couldn't get the noticed of the vishanti etc.

As for Wanda as Sorcerer Supreme amp , I don't think she's ever beaten dormammu in a straight up match until she became Sorcerer Supreme too, I've never seen it, they always have to be some contexts always, again its really hard to not say Wanda is closer to dr strange than he is to loki, all actively top 3 rn but I place loki at number 1 due to experience and hax.
 
What do you guys think of the ongoing hulk vs black panther and thanos vs black panther discuss on TikTok, its quite hilarious
 
Rjdami said:
You could argue base hulk will always lose to potent magic users and potent cosmic beings, including against people like Thor(who actually use his powers instead of brawling) and loki, loki even drained immortal hulk casually already. While he is unmatched in strength you'd have to play by his level to actually lose, why trade blows when you can freeze him in time forever, or drain his power like loki did

Loki oneshot devil hulk
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What comic and what writer is that from? 🙏
 
Okay. Thank you for the information. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
bleedingcool.com

Comics Folk React To C.B. Cebulski Out As Marvel Editor-In-Chief

Comics folk react to the news that C.B. Cebulski will no longer be the Editor-In-Chief of Marvel Comics
bleedingcool.com

bleedingcool.com

Comics Folk React To Steve Wacker As Marvel EIC... Many Called Tom

Comics Folk React to Steve Wacker as the new Marvel Editor-In-Chief... and for some reason, many of them are called Tom
bleedingcool.com

Something of possible interest. 🙏
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So based on what I'm reading here, Cebulski was actually a pretty decent guy that was willing to connect with creators, but didn't necessarily like his role as EIC and found himself stuck in a less creative era of Marvel history. His new job growing Marvel's Asian market might actually be a better fit for him in the long run. But everybody LOVES Wacker, and Gail's story about him shows that he very much cares about the creators to the point of fighting to make their stories happen. The main concern at this point seems to be Disney: if they end up staying in control like they have been, then it won't matter whose in charge at Marvel, things will just stay the same as always. And given the news they'll be moving their NYC office to be with the other offices in LA, they're already losing that bit of independence...
 
That seems like a good analysis, yes. 🙏
 
Anyone have any idea where the premodial demiurge would scale? And I'm not talking about Wiccan at all but the being that created the elder gods and the father of Atum.
 
Rjdami said:
Anyone have any idea where the premodial demiurge would scale? And I'm not talking about Wiccan at all but the being that created the elder gods and the father of Atum.
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Primordial Demiurge and Demiurge Wiccan should scale the same we don't really have a reason to consider them weaker also sine Wiccan Demiurges is stated to have complete control over magic itself which is further showcased in the new series he would still scale above all magic users such as Elder God.
In the last series Baba Yaga stole Demiurge's power from Wiccan to change the laws of magic which stopped Sorcerer supreme Scarlet Witch from properly using magic so she scales above Chaos Magic.
Due to lack of more concrete feats his scaling will always be just above magic.
 
Read latest Godzilla. Now its all but confirmed that it is canon to 616. And well, well, well... What do you know? Corrupting Yggdrasil with symbiotes affects only the 616 universe, but not the Multiverse... Hmm, I wonder why? :unsure: 😊
 
MrKerf said:
Read latest Godzilla. Now its all but confirmed that it is canon to 616. And well, well, well... What do you know? Corrupting Yggdrasil with symbiotes affects only the 616 universe, but not the Multiverse... Hmm, I wonder why? :unsure: 😊
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I usually just ignore all Godzilla stuff because I'm a hater. To me, it's all an alternative universe because most characters act OOC. 🐱
 
Tomfer said:
I usually just ignore all Godzilla stuff because I'm a hater. To me, it's all an alternative universe because most characters act OOC. 🐱
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If we would treat it this way, our job would be a lot easier. No Krakoa era, no Civil War, no Civil War again...
 
MrKerf said:
If we would treat it this way, our job would be a lot easier. No Krakoa era, no Civil War, no Civil War again...
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I mean, we kinda do that? Not officially, but we often reject scaling when those events come into play. With how poorly godzilla + marvel comics are usually written, something like that can be the case too.
 
MrKerf said:
Read latest Godzilla. Now its all but confirmed that it is canon to 616. And well, well, well... What do you know? Corrupting Yggdrasil with symbiotes affects only the 616 universe, but not the Multiverse... Hmm, I wonder why? :unsure: 😊
Click to expand...
With that new information in line, it seems most likely that Yggdrasil is limited to a universal scale.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
With that new information in line, it seems most likely that Yggdrasil is limited to a universal scale.
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Its better to Use a better comics than that, the godzilla crossover comic has never made any sense. Just more proof of marvel editorials being obsolete... yggrasil as a construct ,has far too much consistency (like multiple writers agreeing on the same thing) to focus on one badly written crossover
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
I don't remember seeing that, where did they said that?
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Well he said Eternity created the elder gods in the storm vs hadad battle. So it's either demiurge is eternity or an aspect. Like I said according to Ayodele who is known for breaking canon. Atleast we know al ewing would fix all these mess with his thor book
 
Rjdami said:
That wasn't God of stories loki, yes I know it's a joke comic but just showing how base level loki can affect wands pretty casually. That wasn't the skald aspect of him.
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Base Loki didn't really affect Wanda, regardless? His magic and her chaos magic combined to transform her in a cat. A feat that uses Wanda's own powers to affect her isn't a feat measurable for Loki.

Conversely, we've seen current base Wanda truth-hex base Loki who couldn't actually do anything to resist her powers.
Rjdami said:
As for elder gods, wanda beating chthon was always via a loop hole, not in raw power and chthon barely has any good feat on his own without statements, as for loki needing the eternity mask to slay Kemur, well that was the strongest elder god and his piece of the eternity mask is part of his base gear , skald loki actively never tried to fight in most of the immortal thor comics,we saw that against zeus and nyx too; just stood there, so it's hard to see if he could outright kill elder gods or not.
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We can agree that Wanda's original defeat of Chthon hinged on a trickery maneuver to outsmart him, but that happened in 2021. Current Wanda is now connected to The Never Queen, and actively embracing and wielding possibility, which is why she can go toe to toe, and is even shown and verbatim stated to be as strong or even above The Elder Gods/Great Old Ones.

Furthermore, this doesn't detract from my claim that current Wanda trapped Chthon in a box? This happened after 2021, so it's perfectly applicable to use instead of her old showing against him. Chthon is also the same entity whose power was recently used to kill and destroy a King in Black in The Venom series. He later went on to kill a Celestial. He has enough feats even without statements to actually balance out his hype.
Rjdami said:
As for shuma gorath, not only has he been reduced in status since marvel named him gargatos,
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Shuma's name was changed to legal copyright claims. His feats, and his statements remain the same.

Also, what do you mean? Gargantos in the same story created Gravelrealm, the same realm Vision mentioned was so full of corruption and darkness, it resembled a realm almost opposite to The House of Ideas. He actually got buffed, not reduced.
Rjdami said:
while wanda did hurt gargatos, she couldn't exactly stop him as he was reforming before he got absorbed by other old ones which alone says he isn't even the greatest of the old ones in the current incarnation .
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She straight-up negged Gargantos to such an extent that all the Other Great Old Ones who were previously scared of him came to overthrow him, because she did the work of actually putting him on his deathbed. This is just a factually incorrect and disingenuous assertion to make.

Rjdami said:
Next freedom; loki is the skald of all realms, there's no realm in marvel where he doesn't have a say including the realm of possibility. But let's agree to disagree.
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Again, this is false. Loki is specifically a DEFENDER of Eternity, because Eternity is the personification of all stories. Anything above or transcending Eternity is out of Loki's domain for realms. He does not have any influence in the realm of possibility. Possibility is the raw substance and ideas used to create stories inside Eternity, and predate the influence of stories itself. Thus, they exist inside the Mystery.

Loki only has authority over stories that manifest into actuality and reside in the multiverse, aka Eternity. Hence, "Defender" of "Eternity". Hence why he also needed the Eternity mask against Glorian in The Land of Couldn't Be Shouldn't Be.

Rjdami said:
we saw while Doom was amped he still wasn't as great as even dr strange, he couldn't do anything against dormammu lol, couldn't get the noticed of the vishanti etc.
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Strange hasn't defeated nor beaten The Vishanti so this is literally just a bad comparison to make. Doom received a portion of Strange's own soul to become Sorcerer Supreme and gained all of the power with the title. In addition to that, he was amped by the life force of millions of citizens in Latveria, and further added multiple different forms of magic to stack up his power.

He was far, far more powerful than Strange as Sorcerer Supreme. This is an undisputed fact. Choosing to believe Doom is weaker than Strange because he didn't do everything Strange did as Sorcerer Supreme, despite only holding the title for 9 issues whereas Strange has had more than decades with the title, is such a bizarre and unreasonable expectation.
Rjdami said:
As for Wanda as Sorcerer Supreme amp , I don't think she's ever beaten dormammu in a straight up match until she became Sorcerer Supreme too, I've never seen it, they always have to be some contexts always,
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Wanda was already hax enough to defeat Dormammu and Loki at the same time before any specialized magical training by manipulating a universal object and linking it to Dormammu's own Faltine essence. Bringing up "context" is redundant. Strange has rarely beaten Dormammu through raw power as Sorcerer Supreme either. He almost always wins through strategy and wit. The double standard here is wild.
Rjdami said:
again its really hard to not say Wanda is closer to dr strange than he is to loki, all actively top 3 rn but I place loki at number 1 due to experience and hax.
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If you think Doctor Strange is anywhere near someone in raw power who overpowered the Vishanti, the very entities that empower the Sorcerer Supreme, then idk what to tell you other than you're just flat-out wrong. Loki isn't really seeing her in raw power either, since Wanda's magic is cosmologically the oldest and strongest in the verse, but at least he's more debatable. Strange isn't.
 
Rjdami said:
According to murewa, he is an aspect of Eternity, but with pkj, he's an aspect of Toaa. Which one of these origins do you prefer? I mean, I personally don't like murewa writing of any character , so it's an easy choice .
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No one takes the Storm comic seriously, tbh. Ewing's work is the more accurate narrative to follow.
 
MrKerf said:
Read latest Godzilla. Now its all but confirmed that it is canon to 616. And well, well, well... What do you know? Corrupting Yggdrasil with symbiotes affects only the 616 universe, but not the Multiverse... Hmm, I wonder why? :unsure: 😊
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Do we know when the comic is actually set? Like the era? I always felt that this series felt more like a joke, idk.
 
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