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TenSura LN Revision — The Land Promised To Us 3000 Years Ago

This thread will be a difficult one for Tensura fans, especially since Antvasima has personally stepped in and brought in some of the most experienced and strict staff members, who have no emotional attachment to Tensura. Also, considering that ExcelsisBerny himself opposed this thread, I'm confident there's a good chance it will end up being rejected.

For now, I'm neutral.
 
Antvasima said:
I simply messaged the knowledgeable members I usually message for high-tier revisions. 🙏
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Yes, I am happy only because you contacted them, because there is a certain category of staff who approve Tensura threads quickly and this happens more than once, so I am happy that you sent it to some other staff members so that the topic would be more fair, since it is a big upgrade.
 
Mr._East_Statement said:
Providing independence of causality is not a problem, I just pointed out how—clear cut—it does not provide any helps for a diffrentating account, specially in this case wherein causality is just the cycle of reincarnation of the world (Samsara), for the world is full of suffering and to be free from is to liberate to PL.
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Define differentiating account here
Mr._East_Statement said:
And as I said I didn't said YOU argue for Buddhism, just wanted to point out how author himself posited Samara by which branching into different schools, I even added at the end "it does not matter really" as even putting that aside, "what is the factor for us to diffrentate."

Like bro see "it barely holds some factor of causal superiority despite how it is posited into CRT" asked what I mean 💔 In plain language, I was the scans barely prove that "freedom" from these causal chains gives them some form of dominance over them ("barely"), in process of becoming free in LP, by which would the last factor be information itself I suppose.


I believe he did it very aware of his moves just didn't bother to understand which-is-which, like how he larped the fact that Azathoth dreams reality anyway
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To be fair all of Nirvana's superiority comes from its "sublimation" process where it's released from any and all restrictions. So their causal independence is derived from their transcendence (sublimated state) as a result.
Mr._East_Statement said:
I did pretty much acknowledged that Samsara I the causal system of reincarnation by which encompasses time-space and Fate/Causality (even if arguing Fate encompasses all it would not be so different), in my original text, pretty much one of the points for why I said "free from all limits and constraints" is referencing to how they are free form causal order in Tensura's case itself. And…
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Fair
Mr._East_Statement said:
Bro did not took the point by constantly saying "I didn't argue Buddhism" 💔 Look, genuinely, it is not about you using Buddhism, it is about the fact that author did it, you cannot say "the sky is blue" when author insisting is red. And I wanted to do a pointer by referencing many Buddhist schools of thought, to show the fact that series itself (not the supporters argumentation) barely holds commitment to any branches (which I wanted to clarify for any possible misconceptions that can arises), I very much in those comments bolded the main problem regarding the thread itself that has nothing to do with Buddhism. I am pretty much not arguing because "it is not Buddhism, is not true." And in fact, I did a pointer that saying "it can be exhausted and satisfied by even by ontological models such as what the verse tries to posit for." But alas, all I have done was saying "Buddhism this, Buddhism that" I assume.

Thus, if we even take Buddhism, away we I pretty much have no problems with it, because supporters believe it is "still holding to the argument" for 1-A even if we do…
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Bro expects me to not do anything when 90% of your first post was larping Buddhism while admitting I'm not using Buddhism 💔
Mr._East_Statement said:
What remains?

  1. Casual independence (transcending fate/casuality)
  2. Freedom from information
  3. A "dream" analogy without a factor of diffrentation

I will hammer on "factor of differentiation" because that's the point.
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The fact that those beings when manifesting posit themselves as "fictional entities" is a decent factor of differentiation. It shows that the difference between their PL bodies and their worldly manifestations is that one is real and one is fictional.
Mr._East_Statement said:
So we have, Fate is Casuality in cycle of Samara, all things hold information as it is the ontological priority that conditions all things, dream analogy without elaboration, and does it look like it necessitates any 1-A model to be uphold? The model nevertheless is in the domain of reducibility.
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I kinda added another section to the OP just for this. Don't know if you checked it just went off our old conversation, but reducibility is not a problem here.

The fact that the World Language that defines not just the higher reality but also the process of ascension itself (so far as being the one that determines when a being reaches some qualification for ANY sort of evolution) itself also dictates that those already in the Promised Land cannot go back (going so means ignoring the laws of the world, which means the laws of the world dictate that they cannot) unless specifically manifested as fictional entities through specific skills, gives enough ground to argue irreduciblility.

And no, it's not some "it's a game rule that you cannot pass this barrier", the World Language and its sub laws are more of a defining concept that determines how everything in reality works.
Attributes are the Laws that govern the Principles/Logic of the World, defining everything.
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Mr._East_Statement said:
It does not satisfy or exhausts any conditions for why, let's say, it cannot be lower.

You say "Lacking and transcending information means you cannot be bound to anything that information defines, which includes space time, and dimensionality in a way too since higher dimensions still hold information."

But I should ask

Why you think predating Information Type 2 of the given cosmology size, necessitates it necessary transcends ontological distinctions of non1-As?
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Because said info type 2 just so happens to also define Type 1 Concepts (including those of Space and Time). And per one of Ultima's older posts (psure you have seen it to), concepts that are "whatness" of something/it's essence while being independent of their particulars (type 1 concepts) would include all extensions of said concept.

Refer to the Soul part here:

As type 1 concepts can condition all spatiotemporal intuitive spaces, being outside the scope of information that defines said concept (or conditioning; metaphysical layering is involved here but it does not necessitate giving information itself a higher tier than these spaces) would be outside any qualifiable extension of space and time. Beyond that, you're either 11C (fictional) or 1A (more real), and since Promised Land is treated as superior, we can assume it's the latter
Mr._East_Statement said:
Let's say it like this, to outreach the operational domain of a principle does not mean you wholly transcend the whole genera of it by some degree of simplicity, fictionality, or unmediated contemplative activity.
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Should already be addressed by my above point.
Mr._East_Statement said:
Genuinely all I am asking is a factor of differentiation, something for me to conclude that it is indeed 1-A and cannot be lower. Not "Oh well it completely lacks information and since they liberated from information, it indicates they should be 1-A for lacking it." Are we acting that it can exhaust all levels of physical intuitive spaces 💔 we clearly are not saying that, the model can function perfectly even if we say it is limited to the operational domain of universe as it does, whilst PL is independent from it.

I am not even saying you need L1-A to transcend to become 1-A because that is low tier misconception of the system, I am asking how much is the range of "every facet of the world's" operational domain (information)? Is there a reason for us giving the benefit of doubt and giving PL 1-A because "Blue (Independent of causality) + Red (dream analogy) = Purple (1-A)"? Is there a factor to clarify a differential in their quality?
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Gonna skip this since I believe the type 1 concepts thing clarifies this.
Mr._East_Statement said:
The problem is, you try to make me agree via giving examples that do not hold without the verse clarify all doubts.

If something is reducible reasonably and has other models that exhaust or satisfy its condition, it does not necessarily means we hold the highest interpretation.
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Anddd it's not reducible either as explained above

Since the rest of your reply is basically asking the same thing, I'll not repeat stuff.
Mr._East_Statement said:
Alright, I supposed to have my first and last comment in the thread by that (since I also spoke to Astral), but Hecky insists "Cook something", and I said "Sir, all I can do is to burn the kitchen in process of cooking." But alas I listen now.
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I knew my future self was burning something :insert bruh emoji:

Anyways off to discussing this on discord again cuz too many larpers bruh
 
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Antvasima said:
@Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42 @ShinMaximillion @SuperNova55555

Your help with evaluations would be appreciated here. 🙏
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So on the entire dream stuff, it seems like a lot of it is based on the holistic interpretation of the text. Since after all, it is not as if something being subjectively illusory in some regard is by itself any ground for qualitative transcendence. Which of course seems to have already been mentioned by @ExcelsisBerny and the rest of the opposition. And the Buddhism part already elaborated by @Mr._East_Statement . Though, I will say, I have frankly very little knowledge on this part of Tensura, so it is not as if I know the context qualifying those statements. To which, I will just leave it for the mods to decide.

With that said, the entire information part is frankly meaningless. This is because (as I recall Ultima himself also elaborating on) 1-A is not achieved by transcending something which instantiates Space-Time by being coterminous with it.

The reason of the above is because 1-A is in a sense that which “transcends” the condition by which spatiotemporal entities differentiate themselves, not that which exceeds the arbitrary instantiator of spatial entities.

For what is coterminous becomes exhausted among what it relates to, here being the members of the genus ‘space’. As such, to exceed it is simply tantamount to differing yourself from other members, rather than transcending the genus-itself.

To elaborate, transcending space-ness is simultaneously equivalent to transcending all dimensions because the prior (space) is the condition for which the latter (dimensions) inhere on. As such, space-ness becomes the commonality of all dimensions, of which the latter distinguish themselves from each other through differentia (that is, qualities which differentiate members of the same genus). The differentia, here, largely being the number of spatial axis.

In that sense, a proper way to become 1-A is the rejection of these ‘differentia’ completely through undifferentiation, such that whatever you transcend is the commonality of dimensions, or it’s genus, rather than simply members of that genus.

This is why, btw, Ultima analogizes qualitative transcendence as a continuous progression of greater and greater unity.

Because of this, transcending something that is merely coterminous with Space-Time isn’t sufficient for the tier, because all it means is that you distinguish yourself from other members of the genus ‘space’ rather than being transcended of the genus itself, and therefore incapable of being included as a member of it (spatial entity), and thus 1-A.

The former’s causal power is exhausted amongst all particular members, whereas the latter’s is not. Essentially.

It is not, after all, as if we’d grant 1-A for something merely existing outside of a random Space-Time.
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
I kinda added another section to the OP just for this. Don't know if you checked it just went off our old conversation, but reducibility is not a problem here.

The fact that the World Language that defines not just the higher reality but also the process of ascension itself (so far as being the one that determines when a being reaches some qualification for ANY sort of evolution) itself also dictates that those already in the Promised Land cannot go back (going so means ignoring the laws of the world, which means the laws of the world dictate that they cannot) unless specifically manifested as fictional entities through specific skills, gives enough ground to argue irreduciblility.

And no, it's not some "it's a game rule that you cannot pass this barrier", the World Language and its sub laws are more of a defining concept that determines how everything in reality works.
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Bro thought I used "reducibility" as in can be reduced to parts so it disqualify, crine 💔 reducibility of the scale in sense of being satisfied by lower models bruh…
 
Vesxpura said:
Philo larp nobody cares about. Also u kinda don’t respond to most of the args but it’s fine since I’m gonna respond to them anyways
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I know I didn’t, which is why I said this lil bro:
SuperNova55555 said:
Though, I will say, I have frankly very little knowledge on this part of Tensura, so it is not as if I know the context qualifying those statements.
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Because the main argument actually relevant here seems to be largely context-based, of which I mostly lack.

So I just decided to address what isn’t context-based (that is, the information part) and lay out why it’s entirely irrelevant to actually getting 1-A.
 
SuperNova55555 said:
With that said, the entire information part is frankly meaningless. This is because (as I recall Ultima himself also elaborating on) 1-A is not achieved by transcending something which instantiates Space-Time by being coterminous with it.

The reason of the above is because 1-A is in a sense that which “transcends” the condition by which spatiotemporal entities differentiate themselves, not that which exceeds the arbitrary instantiator of spatial entities.

For what is coterminous becomes exhausted among what it relates to, here being the members of the genus ‘space’. As such, to exceed it is simply tantamount to differing yourself from other members, rather than transcending the genus-itself.
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Not exactly the line of reasoning I'm arguing here. It's more so about "if information defines space and time, something that lacks information cannot be spatiotemporal". Now, this can just be equivalant BDE1, or BDE3, depending on context. But we can at least conclude that something that lacks information would not be able to be spatiotemporal in nature, whether by it's inferiority or by it's superiority. Another analogy is that you can either be nondual or Transdual, either by simply not participating in the duality or transcending it entirely.

Beyond that, since the lack of information here delves from the nature of Nirvana being a "higher" state that is reached not through addition but through sublimation and release (per say, shedding), we can conclude it is not inferior at least.

SuperNova55555 said:
So on the entire dream stuff, it seems like a lot of it is based on the holistic interpretation of the text. Since after all, it is not as if something being subjectively illusory in some regard is by itself any ground for qualitative transcendence. Which of course seems to have already been mentioned by @ExcelsisBerny and the rest of the opposition. And the Buddhism part already elaborated by @Mr._East_Statement . Though, I will say, I have frankly very little knowledge on this part of Tensura, so it is not as if I know the context qualifying those statements. To which, I will just leave it for the mods to decide.
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Yeah this is more so context based, so either you'll have to find the context yourself (which, tbf, the OP already has since I already used any and all statements we have related to PL) or, well, just leave it ig

SuperNova55555 said:
To elaborate, transcending space-ness is simultaneously equivalent to transcending all dimensions because the prior (space) is the condition for which the latter (dimensions) inhere on. As such, space-ness becomes the commonality of all dimensions, of which the latter distinguish themselves from each other through differentia (that is, qualities which differentiate members of the same genus). The differentia, here, largely being the number of spatial axis.

In that sense, a proper way to become 1-A is the rejection of these ‘differentia’ completely through undifferentiation, such that whatever you transcend is the commonality of dimensions, or it’s genus, rather than simply members of that genus.

This is why, btw, Ultima analogizes qualitative transcendence as a continuous progression of greater and greater unity.

Because of this, transcending something that is merely coterminous with Space-Time isn’t sufficient for the tier, because all it means is that you distinguish yourself from other members of the genus ‘space’ rather than being transcended of the genus itself, and therefore incapable of being included as a member of it (spatial entity), and thus 1-A.

The former’s causal power is exhausted amongst all particular members, whereas the latter’s is not. Essentially.

It is not, after all, as if we’d grant 1-A for something merely existing outside of a random Space-Time.
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That is fine and all, but say, how would something lacking information by extension of ascension exist in a spatiotemporal setting if information defines even spatiotemporal coordinates?
Also, even if the target location’s time axis, positional coordinates, and other information were known, if there were a dimensional wall separating them, Mai’s power could not cross it. Tl source
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If Mai had more power, maybe she could leap through time and space at will. If she was a True Dragon, for example, she could just do that for as long as it took. But it wasn’t possible for her. That’s just the way it was. Since she had made that leap just now with all her might, she was unable to read any information about her current location. Whether she escaped from Vega or not, any sort of return was hopeless now.
Otl V21C4
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If it can be defined by Information, it means it has coordinates of space and time that it exists in. If it cannot be defined by Information, it would not be able to exist in such a state that it has coordinates.

Edit: I'll also update the OP in a while with what me and east discussed off-site.
 
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Astral_Trinity439 said:
That is fine and all, but say, how would something lacking information by extension of ascension exist in a spatiotemporal setting if information defines even spatiotemporal coordinates?

If it can be defined by Information, it means it has coordinates of space and time that it exists in. If it cannot be defined by Information, it would not be able to exist in such a state that it has coordinates.
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You say this as if information is the principle by which coordinates are contingent on, when information making up coordinates—and consequently spatial relations—is already implicitly included in the fact they form space to begin with. That it does this is not mutually exclusive with the fact that it becomes exhausted amongst Space-Time (or the cosmology, whatever you wanna say.)
 
SuperNova55555 said:
You say this as if information is the principle by which coordinates are contingent on, when information making up coordinates—and consequently spatial relations—is already implicitly included in the fact they form space to begin with. That it does this is not mutually exclusive with the fact that it becomes exhausted amongst Space-Time (or the cosmology, whatever you wanna say.)
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It kinda is mutually exclusive in this specific case, since information also defines type 1 concepts of everything, including that of space and time.

Souls (Factor), so to say, are the essence of all things, including Spirits (which are phenomena itself, including space time) and by extension Great Spirits. A spirit just represents a physically manifested form of their essence, but their essence subsits independently of said particular. All forms of a particular, no matter how strong or weak (or broad or narrow in scope in this case) still simply embody their Factor/Soul. Factors also distinguish one entity or particular from another (so to say it introduced differentiation). They define both a particular in properties unique to itself compared to the rest and also define it as a general "species" or "genera".

And information still defines Souls, all of them.
We already have a page explaining this (refer to soul section in the second part of the page):

So Promised Land, which lacks and transcends information, would have to be beyond all of this as well ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
It kinda is mutually exclusive in this specific case, since information also defines type 1 concepts of everything, including that of space and time.

Souls (Factor), so to say, are the essence of all things, including Spirits (which are phenomena itself, including space time) and by extension Great Spirits. A spirit just represents a physically manifested form of their essence, but their essence subsits independently of said particular. All forms of a particular, no matter how strong or weak (or broad or narrow in scope in this case) still simply embody their Factor/Soul. Factors also distinguish one entity or particular from another (so to say it introduced differentiation). They define both a particular in properties unique to itself compared to the rest and also define it as a general "species" or "genera".

And information still defines Souls, all of them.
We already have a page explaining this (refer to soul section in the second part of the page):

So Promised Land, which lacks and transcends information, would have to be beyond all of this as well ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯
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I have zero context on this, but say that it is in fact the “Type 1 concept of Space & Time”—I don’t get the needless bloat of this CRT then, when you can simply argue 1-A by just positing that X character/realm transcends these.
 
SuperNova55555 said:
I have zero context on this, but say that it is in fact the “Type 1 concept of Space & Time”—I don’t get the needless bloat of this CRT then, when you can simply argue 1-A by just positing that X character/realm transcends these.
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Cuz to argue that it transcends the concept space time I first need to show how and in way it transcends them, and that this transcendence really delves from its nature as something ontologically greater than said concepts (that is, that said transcendence is in the BDE3 sense and not BDE1 or BDE2 sense), thus the CRT (cuz we don't have a wack statement like X transcends the concept of dimensionality)

Tho to be fair I admit that it the op can be simplified further. I will try to do that tomorrow
 
I will say though, the fact that these concepts don’t seem to be 1-A by themselves is most definitely an eyeraiser. Since a proper “universal of Space-Time” is 1-A in-itself.

Though as long as it genuinely acts as the genera of Space & Time, iirc Ultima said it would be fine for a tier. Though, if the gap between particular and universal here can be gapped by some quantitative measure, that’s extremely suspicious ngl, since it supposes the universal is exhausted in its causative power. And considering it seems to be a quantitative step away… that’s umm, wack.

I’ll let some other dude with context in the verse elaborate on this though, since I’m too tired as of now and not planning on reading more. 😴
 
SuperNova55555 said:
I will say though, the fact that these concepts don’t seem to be 1-A by themselves is most definitely an eyeraiser. Since a proper “universal of Space-Time” is 1-A in-itself.
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Eh?
I'm pretty sure that needs far more context (like immutability or a strong irreduciblility or whatever) at least based off Ultima's older posts, so I never tried to see how or why they'll be that (1-A or higher)

Anyways I'll update the CRT tomorrow. Imma be off for today too 😴
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Eh?
I'm pretty sure that needs far more context (like immutability or a strong irreduciblility or whatever) at least based off Ultima's older posts, so I never tried to see how or why they'll be that (1-A or higher)

Anyways I'll update the CRT tomorrow. Imma be off for today too 😴
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A proper universal of Space & Time is irreducible, yes. But the ‘standards’ exist because a lot of it is just larped concepts, really, that we let pass due to vague standards. And for some reason I feel that’s the case with Tensura too. I mean, just the fact it is made up of information is wack, especially the same type of information its own particulars are made up of. Which that in-itself suggests just a quantitative gap, of which then the “”””genera”””” here is not properly sufficient for upscaling, since it would not truly undifferentiate what it grounds. (Of course, the implications here that space cannot be permutated into spaceness-itself)

I guess then it just depends how lenient or how favorable of a reading we want to give Tensura. Or smthn like that.

In any case, I’ma go nap cuz my brain is on 5% rn 🫩 I’ll think about this tomorrow or something.
 
SuperNova55555 said:
A proper universal of Space & Time is irreducible, yes. But the ‘standards’ exist because a lot of it is just larped concepts, really, that we let pass due to vague standards. And for some reason I feel that’s the case with Tensura too. I mean, just the fact it is made up of information is wack, especially the same type of information its own particulars are made up of. Which that in-itself suggests just a quantitative gap, of which then the “”””genera”””” here is not properly sufficient for upscaling, since it would not truly undifferentiate what it grounds. (Of course, the implications here that space cannot be permutated into spaceness-itself)

I guess then it just depends how lenient or how favorable of a reading we want to give Tensura. Or smthn like that.
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It isn't exactly "made up of it" in a way that you can quantitatively reduce both the concept and the particular to the same information. It is more so that everything has a Soul, one way or another, and that Soul is then defines by Information. This is how it exists in every facet of the world.

I mean, even a flame is in a way a fire spirit, and the Soul of said spirit contains the essence of that fire and the whole Factor shenanigan that I yapped above. And then information defines that essence on a more fundamental lvl.

Eh, it's fiction, you can have something as goofy as "concept of concepts" so why not information that conditions concepts that condition particulars ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯
SuperNova55555 said:
In any case, I’ma go nap cuz my brain is on 5% rn 🫩 I’ll think about this tomorrow or something.
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✌️
 
SuperNova55555 said:
I know I didn’t, which is why I said this lil bro:
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= im too lazy to read the argument and this is why shin is better than me.

In any case, too many people debunking the argument while not enough people showing why the argument is impossible.

Astral_Trinity439 said:
snip
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ngl some of the first couple of parts are useless and dont amount to anything that would support ur arg.

Astral_Trinity439 said:
Seeing Reality as a Dream
The Promised Land sees the World (all worlds) as a dream. They dream the world and can dream it again after waking up, and they can also dream different ones.
Dreaming it again means descending into reality as a fictional entity.
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Astral_Trinity439 said:
Sublimation, and as a result, Promised Land is 1-A due to R>F
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You know, I know, We both know this isnt 1-A. although you arent exactly wrong about the second part.
Given this rule:
For the R>F transcendence to be indexed, the portrayal of the transcendence must be taken into account. If the transcendence is treated as sufficiently portrayed and is important to the story (i.e. being the literal author of the world with complete control over it), then it's valid. If it is not sufficiently portrayed as transcendence compared to the fictional world, then we would not index it as such and would simply tier it as if no R>F transcendence was involved.
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and as far as your argument goes, the PL doesnt have sufficient transcendence over what it deems as fiction(assuming it has a proper reality-fiction relationship in the first place). it neither is shown to have complete control over the rest of the cosmology nor does it act as a "author" type character/place and so it is insufficiently portrayed.

tl:dr, you showed the r>f with no transcendence. so no. its not 1-A due to r>f

moving onto ur best arg so far
Through the process of Reincarnation, people live aiming for a better World. They overcome challenges and refine their Soul, entrusting it to the next generation. It is through this process of refinement that the 3rd option is unlocked; Enlightenment—and consequently—Liberation. That is, a release from the Cycle of Reincarnation and freed from all restrictions/conditions/limitations whatsoever, going through the process of Sublimation and attaining Nirvana, ultimately arriving at the Promised Land.
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such a shame. this had potential. the reason this will never be 1-A is because sublimation and nirvana result in accidental changes. and an accidental change just means a greater layer in the cosmology rather than something beyond all material composition. as 1-A requires essential gaps between the states of existences.

the reason its accidental is the fact that the context describes it as refinement, which means to remove impurities, this can be seen in the analogy of a raw gold nugget. the fact that its raw and a nugget or in other words, impure doesnt change the fact that its still gold in essence. and so by removing those impurities it still doesnt change the essence. and the impurities/limitations of the soul is just the cleansing of non essential properities. This is even further shown as the text talks about "people aiming for a better world" and "overcoming challenges" which is describing conditions they face rather than what they actually are.

Astral_Trinity439 said:
Souls (Factor), so to say, are the essence of all things
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and also im ngl, this understanding that its trully the essence of any and everything is forced and misleading. its more intelligible that the souls act as the substance of a being rather then the essence as not everything has a soul and there are things more fundamental then the soul itself that being information and/or the heart core or ego which you claim is identity. And even more problems arise when you think about it for took long. Like how does the PL lack information if information is in the heart core and the heart core is a constituent of the soul in which people have souls in nirvana. so yeah theres no way this could ever be 1-A.

Korf3ll said:
Meaning you should attack the core argument about how Samsara works in Tensura and why it gives 1A, instead of arguing that "this isn't the real Samsara so it doesn't work" (PS: Even if you attack the core argument, I highly doubt that it's debunkable, but we'll see later about that).
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@Hecky2222 did i make you proud 🥹

in any case, PL should never get upgraded ever again.
 
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Astral_Trinity439 said:
Eh, it's fiction, you can have something as goofy as "concept of concepts" so why not information that conditions concepts that condition particulars ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯
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Nah that’s probably fine, I guess. I’m just being a little skeptical due to lack of contextual knowledge. If it’s just information, I honestly doubt it would restrict you to use it as proof for 1-A.

For whatever it matters, the Tensura God is probably 1-A at least.
 
Mr._East_Statement said:
Providing independence of causality is not a problem, I just pointed out how—clear cut—it does not provide any helps for a diffrentating account, specially in this case wherein causality is just the cycle of reincarnation of the world (Samsara), for the world is full of suffering and to be free from is to liberate to PL.
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Okay so I'm pretty sure this point was added based on my own comments in DMs, so I will clarify
When I was bringing this up I was asking a question that I didn't think was entirely relevant, but instead moreso as to answer my own curiosity, and that was a question as to the atemporal nature of the promised land/enlightenment, and as a result the heart core and ego, with specifically what this scan (and the entire samsara stuff tbh) indicates
“Yes, it is. But if I see the same dream again, this time I will believe that slime san. Then surely we can become very good friends!”
Click to expand...

And then the two begin walking while holding hands. Toward the far, distant promised place where everyone awaits.
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The idea that the true essence of a person is always "asleep" within the promised land, and does not experience reincarnation, with only the soul experiencing the cycle of Samsara, and that to achieve enlightenment (and then die and thus be fully liberated from the binding of the soul, and thus Samsara) is it awakened, so on and so forth, my question was mainly as to the idea of how "awakening" works, if it's properly eternal/retroactive and whatnot (that is, "awakening" is an illusion experienced by the temporal existence of temporal beings, and in truth one is always "awake", and that instead it is simply a matter of realizing such within the world), and if it was, neat, it showcases a proper feat of eternity I don't see commonly outside of philosophy slop (or homestuck for some fucken reason, Hussie), if it doesn't, it doesn't and shouldn't really matter

Being released from causal chains is a good thing to have and can be used for proof of the type of disconnection that we'd want from 1-A things, but we'd want that causal disconnect to either be associated with or as the very basis of the superiority, which does not exactly seem to be the case here, it seems instead that the bindings of fate, which is causality, are part of what is released when one attains enlightenment, rather than fate being those bindings in-of-itself

As for them transcending the composition of reality, I would simply like to bring up the fact that the heart core, which is itself information, is what attains enlightenment, and thus the promised land simply cannot be fundamentally transcendent of information (unless we would like to say that what exists within there is purely the Ego? In which case sure ig, that feels like it'd also bring up other issues but go off)

I already disagreed with the R>F stuff as the basis for 1-A in DMs, and I don't really see anything that changes my mind there

The rest, the OP has changed so much that I'm unaware of what exactly the remaining arguments are, and I do not feel the desire to touch that rn, so I'm just not stating my opinion on that; mark me down as neutral with regards to that if you need to, not like the vote matters much anyways
 
SuperNova55555 said:
Nah that’s probably fine, I guess. I’m just being a little skeptical due to lack of contextual knowledge. If it’s just information, I honestly doubt it would restrict you to use it as proof for 1-A.

For whatever it matters, the Tensura God is probably 1-A at least.
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Thank you for helping out.

So which characters would scale from that? 🙏
 
Edited the OP a bit.
Vesxpura said:
= im too lazy to read the argument and this is why shin is better than me.
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Facts
The only factual thing you said in ds thread btw 💔
Vesxpura said:
ngl some of the first couple of parts are useless and dont amount to anything that would support ur arg.
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Bro using snip and saying "first couple parts" while not even telling what those are 😭
Vesxpura said:
You know, I know, We both know this isnt 1-A. although you arent exactly wrong about the second part.
Given this rule:
and as far as your argument goes, the PL doesnt have sufficient transcendence over what it deems as fiction(assuming it has a proper reality-fiction relationship in the first place). it neither is shown to have complete control over the rest of the cosmology nor does it act as a "author" type character/place and so it is insufficiently portrayed.

tl:dr, you showed the r>f with no transcendence. so no. its not 1-A due to r>f
Click to expand...
??
My guy, if I see a dream, I obv transcend that dream by being more real than it. What kind of logc is that... and when did being an "author" type character be a requirement for a proper transcendence?
Qualifiers
In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.
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Vesxpura said:
tl:dr, you showed the r>f with no transcendence. so no. its not 1-A due to r>f
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ngl idk how you come up with this when I there's that transcendence stuff in the OP (transcending fate and information).
Vesxpura said:
such a shame. this had potential. the reason this will never be 1-A is because sublimation and nirvana result in accidental changes. and an accidental change just means a greater layer in the cosmology rather than something beyond all material composition. as 1-A requires essential gaps between the states of existences.

the reason its accidental is the fact that the context describes it as refinement, which means to remove impurities, this can be seen in the analogy of a raw gold nugget. the fact that its raw and a nugget or in other words, impure doesnt change the fact that its still gold in essence. and so by removing those impurities it still doesnt change the essence. and the impurities/limitations of the soul is just the cleansing of non essential properities. This is even further shown as the text talks about "people aiming for a better world" and "overcoming challenges" which is describing conditions they face rather than what they actually are.
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refinement is not sublimation tho??
Sublimation strictly happens after Death when they have returned to the Cycle of Reincarnation bruh, Refinement happens during one's lifetime. What is this larp 😭
Vesxpura said:
and also im ngl, this understanding that its trully the essence of any and everything is forced and misleading. its more intelligible that the souls act as the substance of a being rather then the essence as not everything has a soul
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Holy shi, using a scan that says "Swords have no soul, in other words, no Will" when literally a not even a page later they say Swords have a Will (in other words, a Soul as well) 💀
It's just dormant in the beginning (included both slimereader and otl translation).

I mean, our soul section on the general concept page already addresses this in a way:
Souls are the Essence of all things, be it Physical Lifeforms or Spiritual Lifeforms. All things have a true essence and that is their Soul. Any living being, humans, animals, and even plants, have Souls. And even completely inanimate things like rocks, terrain, space and time itself have Spirits governing them. That is the design philosophy of all creation as established by the Creator.
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Vesxpura said:
and there are things more fundamental then the soul itself that being information and/or the heart core or ego which you claim is identity. And even more problems arise when you think about it for took long.
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Ego only exists for things that are, well, sentient. But you can still have a Soul (directly or indirectly) without having an Ego, so that is not even a problem here.
Information being more fundamental is not a problem since metaphysical layering has been a thing, as I discussed ds with nova above.
Vesxpura said:
Like how does the PL lack information if information is in the heart core and the heart core is a constituent of the soul in which people have souls in nirvana. so yeah theres no way this could ever be 1-A.
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Imma be honest, I literally do not get what you're trying to say here 💔
People do not have Souls in Nirvana. They leave that behind. It's literally in the OP gng
Deonment said:
As for them transcending the composition of reality, I would simply like to bring up the fact that the heart core, which is itself information, is what attains enlightenment, and thus the promised land simply cannot be fundamentally transcendent of information (unless we would like to say that what exists within there is purely the Ego? In which case sure ig, that feels like it'd also bring up other issues but go off)
Click to expand...
Strictly speaking, the heart core is what goes through "Sublimation" (definition: transforming into a purer state), which we can use to indicate that the heart core of someone who's already ascended is qualitatively different (after all, 1-A and non 1-A can have different concepts of space and time while still completely transcending each other, so the same can apply here to Info as well) and in that process something happens that lead to the thing with Maria thing in V22. Basically what we talked over on discord.
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out.

So which characters would scale from that? 🙏
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Nova said this above:
Though, I will say, I have frankly very little knowledge on this part of Tensura, so it is not as if I know the context qualifying those statements. To which, I will just leave it for the mods to decide.
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Because the main argument actually relevant here seems to be largely context-based, of which I mostly lack.
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I have zero context on this, but say that it is in fact the “Type 1 concept of Space & Time”—I don’t get the needless bloat of this CRT then, when you can simply argue 1-A by just positing that X character/realm transcends these.
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Antvasima said:
I thought that it would only scale to pre-descension Veldanava. How does it scale to others? 🙏
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I will answer this not as something that's agreed by Nova (since he did said he lacks the context to judge anything) but as what is proposed in the thread.

Pre Descent Veldanava scales to 1-A due to Promised Land 1-A.
God scales to 1-A because it is the Monad that Veldanava is an avatar of. It is also the "true form" of other true dragons.
The World Language is also above the Promised Land and thus scales to it. It is a set of concepts that govern everything.
 
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Astral_Trinity439 said:
Edited the OP a bit.

Facts
The only factual thing you said in ds thread btw 💔

Bro using snip and saying "first couple parts" while not even telling what those are 😭

??
My guy, if I see a dream, I obv transcend that dream by being more real than it. What kind of logc is that... and when did being an "author" type character be a requirement for a proper transcendence?


ngl idk how you come up with this when I there's that transcendence stuff in the OP (transcending fate and information).

refinement is not sublimation tho??
Sublimation strictly happens after Death when they have returned to the Cycle of Reincarnation bruh, Refinement happens during one's lifetime. What is this larp 😭

Holy shi, using a scan that says "Swords have no soul, in other words, no Will" when literally a not even a page later they say Swords have a Will (in other words, a Soul as well) 💀
It's just dormant in the beginning (included both slimereader and otl translation).

I mean, our soul section on the general concept page already addresses this in a way:


Ego only exists for things that are, well, sentient. But you can still have a Soul (directly or indirectly) without having an Ego, so that is not even a problem here.
Information being more fundamental is not a problem since metaphysical layering has been a thing, as I discussed ds with nova above.

Imma be honest, I literally do not get what you're trying to say here 💔
People do not have Souls in Nirvana. They leave that behind. It's literally in the OP gng

Strictly speaking, the heart core is what goes through "Sublimation", and in that process something happens that lead to the thing with Maria thing in V22. Basically what we talked over on discord.

Nova said this above:




I will answer this not as something that's agreed by Nova (since he did said he lacks the context to judge anything) but as what is proposed in the thread.

Pre Descent Veldanava scales to 1-A due to Promised Land 1-A.
God scales to 1-A because it is the Monad that Veldanava is an avatar of. It is also the "true form" of other true dragons.
The World Language is also above the Promised Land and thus scales to it. It is a set of concepts that govern everything.
Click to expand...
You don't need author type of transcendance(Otherwise you should give plot manipulation to every r f) but proving connection between dream and dreamer is needed as stated above, because dreams(not thoughts) cannot exist without dreamer. For instance we see fiction/mythology using that analogy lot(where sleeping character dreams all reality and it ceases to exist when you wake up), which in context doesn't seem to be case. I wouldn't say it alone would be anti feat, it is just as Nova and others said context is too little to judge. So it leaves you to guess, which is at generous possibly rating

I dont think sword having no soul matters anyway. I can get what is argument behind "leaving everything"(although space time and especially Rimuru ability part argument is cringe, gotta be honest) but then you gotta hit by first concern again

icl I could see what is generally argument is if only Fuse could elaborate more on PL
 
Hecky2222 said:
You don't need author type of transcendance(Otherwise you should give plot manipulation to every r f) but proving connection between dream and dreamer is needed as stated above, because dreams(not thoughts) cannot exist without dreamer. For instance we see fiction/mythology using that analogy lot(where sleeping character dreams all reality and it ceases to exist when you wake up), which in context doesn't seem to be case. I wouldn't say it alone would be anti feat, it is just as Nova and others said context is too little to judge. So it leaves you to guess, which is at generous possibly rating
Click to expand...
Conversely, however, I believe the fact that they can dream it again or dream different things still shows the relation between the dreamer and the dream. In simpler words it basically means the relation is the same as what relation we have between ourselves and our different dreams. If it was just "the world was a dream", there are a ton of reasons to argue it is metaphorical, but since they can dream it again and dream different things after already ascending completely, it shows that the analogy is completely literal and not a metaphor.
Hecky2222 said:
icl I could see what is generally argument is if only Fuse could elaborate more on PL
Click to expand...
The potential man himself 😞
 
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Antvasima said:
I thought that it would only scale to pre-descension Veldanava. How does it scale to others? 🙏
Click to expand...
The way it scales is twofold in a way:

1. If the Tensura God is really a unified thing, such that it is prior to the very universal of Space & Time, that’s 1-A straight-up. This reasoning is in fact independent to the PL stuff proposed by Astral, so it would only be for the Godhead.

2. Though, if PL itself transcends those universals (such that it is above the categories of Space & Time itself), then that would be 1-A, and consequently the Tensura God, as well. But, as it seems, the reasoning for the transcendence seems to a Dream allegory, which if proper, is 1-A by itself regardless.

Now, this is obviously going with the assumption that the CM1 of Tensura is faithful, after all. So if anyone is against 1-A, then they should probably be investigating the CM1 itself.
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
My guy, if I see a dream, I obv transcend that dream by being more real than it. What kind of logc is that... and when did being an "author" type character be a requirement for a proper transcendence?
Click to expand...
did u even read the rule. it gave an example of what a sufficient transcendence is like and you failed to fulfill its criteria. if the "higher reality" cant effect the lower one then at best its casually isolated and not transcendent over it. the proper instances of r>f actually involve control over the lower reality. and considering that QS is greater than L1-A which is defined as having power over all material composites.
In general, such cases can be relatively straightforward, as in cosmologies where conventional reality is portrayed as "not really real," and there are superior, "more real" worlds beyond it. If, on top of that, the higher world is depicted as being one that is inhabited by literal readers, authors and consumers of media, and not simply cosmic beings taking the metaphorical appearance of such (Take this article's image as reference), then that is substantial evidence for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence
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However, bear in mind that simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct are not enough to qualify
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its pretty clear u dont have anything that qualifies it as "substantial evidence" for R>F, i donno why ur still trying to pursue it.


Astral_Trinity439 said:
refinement is not sublimation tho??
Sublimation strictly happens after Death when they have returned to the Cycle of Reincarnation bruh, Refinement happens during one's lifetime. What is this larp
Click to expand...
so ur just gonna ignore the contention and move on. yeah cool. ill take this as you agreeing nirvana and refinement are accidental changes and therefore its impossible for it to be 1-A. i really dont care about what happens when, ur not contending what it actually does.

Astral_Trinity439 said:
Imma be honest, I literally do not get what you're trying to say here 💔
People do not have Souls in Nirvana.
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point being, you cant establish an essential gap. now im not sure if ur tryna equivocate on the term essence but ur application of essence here makes no sense if we use what vsbw considers an essence.

in anycase, u dont have a problem with it being accidental, so you dont have a problem with it being not 1-A.
 
Vesxpura said:
did u even read the rule. it gave an example of what a sufficient transcendence is like and you failed to fulfill its criteria. if the "higher reality" cant effect the lower one then at best its casually isolated and not transcendent over it. the proper instances of r>f actually involve control over the lower reality. and considering that QS is greater than L1-A which is defined as having power over all material composites
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Gotta clarify this. Not necessarily. When you transcend unreality, you shouldn't be affect it without hax. Vsbw uses R > F as transcending into nonexistence. so you can't just attack fiction via AP(it would touching nothingness), granted you can just tear book or use hax to interact(like Author using plot manipulation to draw fiction), avatar creation or wtv. So like it js depends. Although you ask proof of relation of dream and dreamer like case, thing interests me if they truly dissappear after waking up.
 
Vesxpura said:
did u even read the rule. it gave an example of what a sufficient transcendence is like and you failed to fulfill its criteria. if the "higher reality" cant effect the lower one then at best its casually isolated and not transcendent over it. the proper instances of r>f actually involve control over the lower reality. and considering that QS is greater than L1-A which is defined as having power over all material composites.
Click to expand...
I just want to point out that "sufficient portrayal" being equal to "having control over the lower reality" is only your interpretation and isn't directly stated within the standards

Even more so, one of the examples of qualifying is "consumer of media"
If, on top of that, the higher world is depicted as being one that is inhabited by literal readers, authors and consumers of media,
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Remind me, since when do consumers have control over the story?
 
Yea, the way VSBW defines pretty much implicates that lower realms are functionally non-existent to you. So it’s not like it can be interacted with in any conventional way.

In fact, this even applies to spatial dimensions, strictly speaking. At least, if we’re to talk about them rigidly, lower-dimensional objects posses no volume at all in comparison to higher-dimensional ones so they would be as tangible as shadows effectively.
 
SuperNova55555 said:
Yea, the way VSBW defines pretty much implicates that lower realms are functionally non-existent to you. So it’s not like it can be interacted with in any conventional way.

In fact, this even applies to spatial dimensions, strictly speaking. At least, if we’re to talk about them rigidly, lower-dimensional objects posses no volume at all in comparison to higher-dimensional ones so they would be as tangible as shadows effectively.
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Want to point out another fact God is a singular existence, the primordial will that exist as and separate from everything else, his consciousness holds all things. I assume that everything else conclude the concept of Space-time as the whole as Veldanava( pre-descend key) exist even before the concept of Space-Time even exist

P.S I know this is not the arguement but this is for those forgot what god was fyi
 
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