TenSura LN Revision — The Land Promised To Us 3000 Years Ago

Astral_Trinity439 · Sunday at 20:48

Introduction

Hello everyone, hope ya'll are doing fine. Now, with all the key divisions and cleanups out of the way, it's time to buff our goatnava.
A few things to note before reading, because I know people will otherwise be giving votes based on other things:

No one except God key/Great Holy Spirit, Veldanava and World Language scales to this tier-wise, and Veldanava only scales to this in his Pre-Descent key.
Enlightenment = Sennin (Localized English vs Japanese term)

All the translations used in this thread, unless sourced otherwise, are done by @RaikiKurohane99. Credits to them for this massive help, otherwise this CRT wouldn't be possible this year! Also, I have received their permission to add the " " punctuation to the translations to make it easier to know when someone is talking, and who is talking.

Note: This CRT does not rely on Buddhism as a backbone. Any similarity found is purely coincidental, as the author loves inserting elements from various philosophies into one being ball of chaos. The verse has its own uniqueness brought forth from mixing up many different concepts into one.

With that said, let's get into the CRT!

Table of Contents

So before we get into the main stuff, let's establish a base first.

Free Will
So "Free Will", as the name suggests, is the ability to act autonomously or independently. Free Will comes with various Desires & Emotions;

Veldanava thought. He decided that these kinds of phenomena should be accepted as a certain degree of necessary evil, and that the way the world exists should be tolerated as a training ground for souls. If he were to manage humans completely, conflicts would probably disappear. However, if that happened, the rise and fall of each individual's emotions would also disappear, and the world would become a dystopia equal and fair though it might be, yet one in which free will does not exist and no stimulation exists. If that were so, it would be much the same as when he had been alone... Such a world was not what Veldanava desired.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Source

Wisdom, Desire, Joy, Anger, Sorrow, and Pleasure, as bestowed upon Life by Veldanava.

Several worlds had been derived from the Axis World, but in all of them, similar tendencies could be confirmed. That was because of emotions. Wisdom, desire, and the emotions of joy, anger, sorrow, and pleasure were given because it was thought that they were necessary in order for humans to develop to a greater extent. Even so, emotions that had become excessively great tended to exclude the assertions of others.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Source

Veldanava had nested within this Free Will the fundamental Good required to eventually attain Liberation by entrusting their will to the next generation.

Veldanava thought. He decided that these kinds of phenomena should be accepted as a certain degree of necessary evil, and that the way the world exists should be tolerated as a training ground for souls. If he were to manage humans completely, conflicts would probably disappear. However, if that happened, the rise and fall of each individual's emotions would also disappear, and the world would become a dystopia equal and fair though it might be, yet one in which free will does not exist and no stimulation exists. If that were so, it would be much the same as when he had been alone... Such a world was not what Veldanava desired.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Source

Maintaining the world is difficult. If desires are not given to people, there is no development. If death is not given to people, the world becomes filled with decadence and begins to walk the path toward destruction. The fate of every superhuman humanity that came to have more free time than it could use was miserable. It was better to prepare natural enemies and make them possess an appropriate sense of tension. However, that measure led to the result of scattering misfortune throughout the world.

People die. Therefore, the fear of parting came to constantly accompany them. If one fulfilled one's natural lifespan, one could see them off with a smile, but such fortunate people are few. Some die halfway through their dreams, while others have their lives taken away unreasonably. Even so... if lifespans are not established, the world becomes stagnant. In the end, a system called reincarnation was constructed, and it was decided to manage the world through it. People live aiming for a better world.

By overcoming numerous misfortunes, they refine their souls and entrust them to the next generation. A bet was placed on the will hidden within the human heart the power to keep living. Thus, those who reached nirvana/Moksha/liberation/mukti/vimukti would come to arrive at the Promised Place.

However, an unforeseen misfortune threw everything into disorder. Veldanava's wife Lucia was also a person who should have become that way. Even so, she fell to a deadly blade and became one who would never return, and Veldanava came to harbor doubts about his own thinking. Should the world be destroyed? Or should it continue to be watched over as before? The answer is unknown. Precisely because of that, he made a bet. The one who stood blocking Veldanava before him was Rimuru, who was now before his eyes.
Volume 23, Chapter 4
Translation Source

Samsara
As already explained in our Cosmology Page:

Samsara (輪廻), also known as the Cycle of Reincarnation, is the Origin of Life and the System that governs the circulation of Souls. It is a Cycle of Eternal Recurrence established by Veldanava to ensure that Souls can circulate throughout all Dimensions and all Worlds.
When a Soul disperses into nonexistence or is erased from the World, it returns to the Cycle of Reincarnation. Then, there are normally 3 options, 2 of which are:

Circle through the Wheel of Reincarnation and live another life, often with no memories of their past lives whatsoever.

Be sent to Hell, where it is tormented by Demons until all Karma is nullified, and then repeat Option 1.

The World is the training ground for Souls. In managing the world—if Free Will is not granted, the world becomes a dystopia; If Desire is not granted, the world does not progress; If Death is not granted, the world slowly decays and walks towards the path of Ruin. If a constant sense of Tension is granted, the world is filled with Misery. For those with too large a lifespan, realizing the excess of time granted to them results in a tragic Fate. If Death is granted, people have a constant fear parting, however, those that live out their natural lifespan can be sent off with a smile. But few actually receive this, as often more than not, people die halfway trying to fulfill their dreams or by having their lives taken unjustly. Yet, even then, if a Lifespan is not set, the World would stagnate.

Through the process of Reincarnation, people live aiming for a better World. They overcome challenges and refine their Soul, entrusting it to the next generation. It is through this process of refinement that the 3rd option is unlocked; Enlightenment—and consequently—Liberation. That is, a release from the Cycle of Reincarnation and freed from all restrictions/conditions/limitations whatsoever, going through the process of Sublimation and attaining Nirvana, ultimately arriving at the Promised Land.

It is thus once again fundamentally set by the Creator that beings achieve Nirvana, a potential embedded in the lower reality in the form of Free Will and Fundamental Good.

Promised Land

This is divided into various sections:

Process of Ascension
To arrive at the Promised Land, one needs to reach Enlightenment in the World, with the World being the training ground of Souls, in which process a person refines their Soul and entrusts it to the next generation:

The moment Kondou's fingers touched it, the Nambu style large automatic pistol shone in a golden color. Bathed in Kondou's power, even its material changed, and it was reborn into Myth class (Gods).

And Kondou's soul was also inherited by Carrera through the pistol. However, its heart core was not included. Carrera knew. That the heart core of a human who attained enlightenment and reached a state without sin cannot be freely controlled, even if the soul is bound.

Freed from all constraints/limitation/restriction/condition, it is released from the wheel of Samsara and journeys toward the promised place. Namely, nirvana/Moksha/liberation/mukti/vimukti.
Volume 15, Chapter 5
Translation Source

Veldanava thought. He decided that these kinds of phenomena should be accepted as a certain degree of necessary evil, and that the way the world exists should be tolerated as a training ground for souls. If he were to manage humans completely, conflicts would probably disappear. However, if that happened, the rise and fall of each individual's emotions would also disappear, and the world would become a dystopia equal and fair though it might be, yet one in which free will does not exist and no stimulation exists. If that were so, it would be much the same as when he had been alone... Such a world was not what Veldanava desired.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Source

Maintaining the world is difficult. If desires are not given to people, there is no development. If death is not given to people, the world becomes filled with decadence and begins to walk the path toward destruction. The fate of every superhuman humanity that came to have more free time than it could use was miserable. It was better to prepare natural enemies and make them possess an appropriate sense of tension. However, that measure led to the result of scattering misfortune throughout the world.

People die. Therefore, the fear of parting came to constantly accompany them. If one fulfilled one's natural lifespan, one could see them off with a smile, but such fortunate people are few. Some die halfway through their dreams, while others have their lives taken away unreasonably. Even so... if lifespans are not established, the world becomes stagnant. In the end, a system called reincarnation was constructed, and it was decided to manage the world through it. People live aiming for a better world.

By overcoming numerous misfortunes, they refine their souls and entrust them to the next generation. A bet was placed on the will hidden within the human heart the power to keep living. Thus, those who reached nirvana/Moksha/liberation/mukti/vimukti would come to arrive at the Promised Place.

However, an unforeseen misfortune threw everything into disorder. Veldanava's wife Lucia was also a person who should have become that way. Even so, she fell to a deadly blade and became one who would never return, and Veldanava came to harbor doubts about his own thinking. Should the world be destroyed? Or should it continue to be watched over as before? The answer is unknown. Precisely because of that, he made a bet. The one who stood blocking Veldanava before him was Rimuru, who was now before his eyes.
Volume 23, Chapter 4
Translation Source

In the same scan as above, which I will quote again, a being that has achieved Enlightenment as well as the state of being Sinless can never have their heart core bound by anything, not even the world. They are free from any and all sorts of conditions/limitations/restrictions and are released from Samsara, attaining Nirvana/Buddhahood.

The moment Kondou's fingers touched it, the Nambu style large automatic pistol shone in a golden color. Bathed in Kondou's power, even its material changed, and it was reborn into Myth class (Gods).

And Kondou's soul was also inherited by Carrera through the pistol. However, its heart core was not included. Carrera knew. That the heart core of a human who attained enlightenment and reached a state without sin cannot be freely controlled, even if the soul is bound.

Freed from all constraints/limitation/restriction/condition, it is released from the wheel of Samsara and journeys toward the promised place. Namely, nirvana/Moksha/liberation/mukti/vimukti.
Volume 15, Chapter 5
Translation Source

They become unbound by Fate itself:

"May you rest peacefully."
As though guided by Luminous's voice, the former Hero, who had fought through a long span of time, was released from that causality and dispersed into the world.
Volume 11, Chapter 5
Translation Source
[Causality here also means Fate]

and go through the process of Sublimation, attaining Nirvana/Buddhahood.

"......What are you talking about?"
"Well, very well. So that even you, who are slow to understand, can comprehend it, I will teach you."
Luminous said this as if pitying Twilight.
And then, she continued, beginning her lecture.
"What is the most important thing as an element that forms a person a personality?"
"That is the soul, right. More precisely, it is the Heart Core and memories."
Hmm, Luminous nodded.

"From the side, they looked like master and disciple. Before anyone realized, the composition had become as if their positions had reversed.
When a person dies, the soul disperses, and then disappears. Some go through reincarnation, or in the underworld suffer torment from the Demon Race (Demons), or attain Buddhahood/Nirvana in other words, "sublimation." What can be said in common is: if the shape of the soul can no longer be maintained, that is death, and one reaches nothingness."

"......So?"
"So I thought. About the definition of death, and about eternal life. We are long lived beings, you know? In the first place, we have lifespans equal to infinity, so there is no need to worry about something like eternal life, is there?"
Volume 23, Chapter 2
Translation Source

Independence from all creation
The Promised Land and those that have ascended are implied to remain completely unaffected even if Veldanava used Initialize Heaven, which is an art capable of destroying all Worlds, and should be comparable to Ivarage' strongest attack, that can produce the same result; the destruction of all worlds across all dimensions.

(I never intended to use this except when creating a new world.)

That was a trump card for an emergency. “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Dominion (Initialize Heaven)” It is a technique that initializes the world and reconstructs it.
When Veldanava gave birth to the foundational world, what he used was an ultimate divine act called “Paradise Genesis (Beginning Eden).

By using this secret art, Veldanava lost “Void Collapse” and ceased to be “Omniscient and Omnipotent. Even so, he succeeded in descending into the world he had created. Now that he can no longer handle “divine acts,” the next best thing, “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Dominion (Initialize Heaven)," is the strongest divine technique that Veldanava can wield. With this, it should have been possible to destroy all worlds, including Rimuru.

Because in “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Overlord Realm (Initialize Heaven)” selection cannot be performed. As a result, he would be unable to take his friends along to the next generation world that is to be reconstructed. Moreover, he had not yet finished gathering the factors of his beloved Lucia.
Ivaraje is one half of Veldanava, and even after passing through “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Overlord Realm (Initialize Heaven),” he will survive, but he will be far from being a complete Lucia.

If the lost Nihility Collapse had existed, it probably would have been possible to take in all worlds and also extract their information, but for the current Veldanava, it is an impossible technique. If the worlds were to disappear, Lucia's information particles as well would be lost.

Therefore, whether or not to use Heaven and Earth Collapsing Destruction World (Initialize Heaven) becomes, even for Veldanava, a painful decision.

However, there is no need to think about it too difficultly. Even if incomplete, Lucia is Lucia. If Veldanava wins, then that will mean it was the correct choice. The new world will probably be better than the current world.

Together with those who reached the promised place, he intended to create a more complete world.

Since Velzard and the others, who are his younger siblings, are also Dragon Species, they will likely be born once again in the new world. If he processes things so that the memories are not inherited, they should come to adore Veldanava again like before. Even his daughter Milim should surely be reincarnated once more. This time, because she will not be alone, she will not be lonely.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Sources (This one is extremely long so I had it translated in smaller sections)

<If we had brought it into a battle of attrition, victory was guaranteed, however, if things become like this, the scale of the effects caused by Ruvelje's attacks seems likely to extend even to the worlds spread throughout all dimensions.>

What a troublesome thing, said Ciel san in a tone that sounded not troubled at all. As for that gigantic body, it was, so to speak, serving the role of a cushioning material. By being protected by that thing, Ruvelje was able to display his true full power. It is said that his attacks would not remain limited to the Cardinal World alone, but would affect all worlds.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Source

This means that the Promised Land isn't just some "World" inside a random Dimension far away from the current one, but rather, it is outside all dimensions and all worlds. That combined with the rest of the proof is enough to show its superiority over the rest of the cosmology.

Seeing Reality as a Dream
The Promised Land sees the World (all worlds) as a dream. They dream the world and can dream it again after waking up, and they can also dream different ones.

"I had a dream. A very mysterious dream. There, I was a very selfish girl."
Maria, who had awakened, looked at Gran and smiled faintly.
“Was it fun?”
“Yes, very”
And then the two look at each other and laugh together.
“How strange. Why didn’t I believe that slime san, I wonder?”
“Hmm, that’s a difficult question. If I say it’s because it was a dream would that be tactless?”
“Honestly, answer seriously!”
“Hahaha, my apologies. As you say, Maria, if one could accept everything and believe in one another, there would be nothing more wonderful. However, people are cowardly. They fear those who live by rules different from their own and stay wary, wondering if they might be betrayed. And furthermore, troublesome as it is, one who does not doubt others may be said to possess a beautiful heart, but such a person does not possess the qualifications to become a ruler. Because being more cautious than anyone else is precisely the quality required of one who leads people.
”Upon hearing that, Maria puffs her cheeks in dissatisfaction.“
Geez! If that’s the case, then people will never truly understand each other from the heart! I don’t like that. I hate that! So, you know, I’ve decided that next time I will believe.”
“It’s just a dream, isn’t it?”
“Yes, it is. But if I see the same dream again, this time I will believe that slime san. Then surely we can become very good friends!”
“I see. Yes, I suppose so.”
Gran gently nodded at Maria’s words.
To such a Gran, Maria innocently asks:
“So then, Gran, what kind of dream did you see?”
“Me? I…”
What Gran saw was a very long and sad dream.
But the last thing he saw was a light of hope.
“A good dream. Very much so.”
“Oh my, that’s wonderful! If you are happy, then I am happy too!”
“So am I. If you are happy, I will overcome any hardship.”
“If I am here, and you are here, and we can live our days peacefully, that alone would make every day enjoyable.”
“That’s right.”
“A child will be born, our family will grow, and then we will become even more and more happy!”
“Yes, indeed.”
And then Gran gently embraced Maria.
A beautiful tone can be heard.
It is the signal of departure.
“It would be bad to keep Razul waiting, so shall we depart soon?”
“Yes, that’s right. Did you forget anything? We won’t be able to return here anymore, will we?”
“Yes, it’s alright. As long as you are here, I need nothing else.”
And then the two begin walking while holding hands. Toward the far, distant promised place where everyone awaits.
Volume 11, Epilogue
Translation Source

Dreaming it again means descending into reality as a fictional entity.

“Yes, it is. But if I see the same dream again, this time I will believe that slime san. Then surely we can become very good friends!”
Volume 11, Epilogue
Translation Source

The Granbel here is nothing more than a fictional being with a physical form. In fact, the sword that had just been handed over to Hinata was also reproduced and held in that hand. As an existence of the same nature as the information lifeform Digital Nature, the power to summon past heroes.

That, precisely, was the essence of Masayuki's awakened ultimate ability, the Ultimate Skill "King of Heroes, Shinnaru Eiyuu." The reason Minutes and Caligurio regained their strength was also because the influence of this power extended to them.
Volume 19, Chapter 4
Translation Source

"It is true that I was called by the will of my master, Rudra, but perhaps it was inevitable. It was only at the “Promised Land” that I realized I hadn’t been able to entrust my Will to you either. Maria scolded me too."
"Eh?"

That conversation itself was an illusion spoken by a fake. And yet, it was strangely concrete and vividly real. Then Hinata understood the meaning of Granbell's words.
"W-What!? This power is..."
Volume 19, Chapter 4
Translation Source

So basically a looot of reasosn to believe the R>F is real. Also, the counter arguments are addressed at the end.

The important part here is not just that they "dreamed" the world. If that was all, there would be tons of reasons to argue it's just a metaphor. But because they can dream the world "again" and dream different ones entirely, it shows that the relation is the same as one between us (a real person) and our diversity of dreams. It shows that it is not simply a metaphor but meant to be literal.

Irreduciblility
Okay so, another thing is that a person who has already ascended cannot just return to the lower reality again. Doing so means to ignore the Laws of the World, meaning the Laws posit that X (1-A) cannot be reduced to Y (non 1A) again. However, Rudra and Granbell could do it cuz:

Rudra has not ascended yet (masayuki is Rudra but reincarnated, he still exists in the world wholly)
Granbell and others are specifically summoned as fictional entities by Masayuki, who does that with a Skill. A skill relies on the World Language which is 1-A.

And then Rudra turned toward Feldway, as if trying to hide his embarrassment.

"Well then, sorry to keep you waiting, Feldway."
".……It seems that you were the real thing after all. Are you planning to claim that you have overcome death while even ignoring the laws of this world?"
"No. I am still dead, and returning from the dead is impossible. But, you see, someone who makes the woman he loves cry can be punched even from the afterlife."
"Don't joke around. I'm serious, you know? Well, it's just that I haven't gone to the afterlife yet."

Although he was saying it jokingly, this statement of Rudra's was quite close to the truth. That is why he is residing within Masayuki like this, and as long as Michael's main body remains incarnated, it is not as though all of his memories have been reproduced.

At the same time that the effects of Masayuki's Authority end, Rudra's personality will disappear. However, those memories and experiences will accumulate and remain within Masayuki's heart. In other words, it means that Rudra will be able to manifest again from now on as well. Rudra is not kind hearted enough to explain that to him, but he has no particular intention of hiding it either.
Translation Source

Transcending Everything (Route: Fate)
Fate governs any and all Life born into the World.

"If what lies beyond striving for evolution is conflict, then that would mean that it is precisely the will of God. So that they may reach even greater heights, Dagruel, Twilight, and even Zelanus, who was born in the Otherworld, had been given the karma of surpassing one's parent."
Volume 22
Translation Source

"Every single life form born into this world was not permitted to evolve. Rather, was it not, on the contrary, destined to strive toward it...?"
Volume 22
Translation Source

This fate binds even the Descended Veldanava himself:

With their cooperation obtained, finally the ideal environment was completed. A system of eternal recurrence was constructed so that the soul would circulate through all dimensions.

Thus, each world came to develop in a wide variety of ways.
When everything began to function well, the wheel of fate turned greatly. Meeting Lucia, Veldanava came to know love.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Source

This Fate is synonym with Causality:

"May you rest peacefully."
As though guided by Luminous's voice, the former Hero, who had fought through a long span of time, was released from that causality and dispersed into the world.
Volume 11, Chapter 5
Translation Source
[Causality here also means Fate]

It encompasses Life in its Origin:

Ultimate Skill "King of Hope (Sariel)", an authority for managing the origin of life and the Wheel of Samsara.
Translation Source

And it even encompasses Time itself (and consequently Space as both are co-relative):

The Masked Hero Who Continued Traversing Two Thousand Years of Time. A beautiful otherworldly girl with black silver, shining hair whom Rimuru took in from Yuuki. She is usually reserved, but becomes innocent in front of Rimuru, and whenever it concerns him, she suddenly overflows with motivation. She is close with Kenya and the others, and is one of the children who received Shizu's instruction, but in truth she is Chloe O'Bell herself, the childhood friend whom Demon Lord Leon is searching for. Due to her Unique Skill, she was unable to escape the Samsara of Time, and every time Hinata died, she repeatedly underwent the fate of being sent into the past together with Hinata's soul. After reviving in the present world, together with her other personality, Chronoa, she came to reveal her feelings toward Rimuru even more openly, and during the Great Imperial Expedition, she relentlessly pursued Jiwu, who had targeted Rimuru's life.
Volume 13.5, Character Status
Translation Summary

Even for Chloe, who places efficiency first, she agreed with that policy. For Chloe, who had repeated the Samsara of Time that seemed eternal, the time until witnessing the ending in which Milim suffered complete defeat was not painful. Therefore, the present Chloe was nothing more than a mere observer.
Volume 23
Translation Source

That was an absurd line of reasoning. Unless one is guided by a great destiny like the Hero, controlling time is impossible with a Unique level Authority.
Volume 21, Chapter 1
Translation Source

Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light. The correlation between space and time was beyond Mai's understanding. Furthermore, the probability of being able to arrive at the time and place where her beloved brother was alive was infinitesimal.
Volume 21, Chapter 4
Translation Source

Also, thanks to @RaikiKurohane99 for bringing this up; Fate encompasses everything down to the Info type 2 (and CM1) level:

"Fate" encompasses the Suspended World and allows one to move in it, where all physical laws have ceased to exist and everything exists purely as Information.
Another example is Gabiru's Fate Manipulation working on Velzard even though Velzard can nullify all attacks on the Info type 2 lvl. Yet another example is Chloe's Reverse Fate working on Michael, who is a purely information lifeform.

So essentially transcending Fate is transcending everything on the level of information (Type 2) and Concept (Type 1) {Since Info type 2 defines all-exhaustive cm1 here). That would by itself be 1-A.

Therefore, as Promised Land is beyond Fate, it is by extension beyond Causality, Space, Time and Life as well.

Transcending Everything (Route: Info Type 2 and Concept Type 1)
Alright so for this, I'll part of the explanation from our General Concept page. This is from the explanation of a Heart Core:

The Heart (also called Heart Core) is the aspect beyond the Soul. The Heart is made up of what we call Data Particles (or Information Particles). This is the place where all the information about the individual is engraved inside Data Particles, the information container.

They are Particles that exist in All Things, as the foundation of All Creation. Be it normal existence or Nonexistent places like the Underworld, or fictional places like Rimuru's Stomach, or Space and Time itself, or even the Body, Mind (Spiritual Body), Aether (Astral Body), Essence (Soul), or Life and Death, it defines all things. So to say, it quite literally exists in EVERY facet of the world.

These particles are completely unbound from Temporal Elements. And as Space and Time are both co-relative, it means they lack both, being "smaller" than even Photons and having as close an existential mass to 0 as possible (Zero here is not physical absence but something beyond Existence and Nonexistence).

So basically, Information is the composite of the baseline "Reality", and are present in/make up EVERY facet of the world. This, of course, includes Souls too. And Souls are:

Souls are the Essence of all things, be it Physical Lifeforms or Spiritual Lifeforms. All things have a true essence and that is their Soul. Any living being, humans, animals, and even plants, have Souls. And even completely inanimate things like rocks, terrain, space and time itself have Spirits governing them. That is the design philosophy of all creation as established by the Creator.

Even True Dragons have Souls as their Essence, so the Soul is the Essence of even already Conceptual entities. Another way to look at it is the fact that Magicules are already conceptual in nature, yet Spiritrons (what a Soul is) make up even Magicules, acting as their building block.

The scope of a Soul is however limited to the thing it governs. The Soul of a human is the essence of that specific human, and the Soul of a Spirit is the essence of the scope and aspect of reality said Spirit governs. However, as all Souls are ultimately a collection of Spiritrons, they are equal in nature and only different in the part of reality they govern.

A Soul also holds one's Factor:

A Factor defines a being's existence and distinguishes a type of entity from another entity. For example, the factor of Monster X (let's say, a centipede) is needed for that monster to be born/exist, as without said factor there can be no monsters of that Factor. Without a factor, a thing simply cannot come into existence.

If you take away one's Factor, they cannot maintain their existence and disappear.

True Dragons also have Factors, called "Dragon Factors", despite each one of them being their own Concept.

It makes up X (anything), with X being merely the embodied form of its own Factor.

Taking/absorbing someone's Factor for yourself makes you transform into that type of existence.

Factors can force change onto the part of reality they under their influence.

As explained above; Souls (Factor), so to say, are the essence of all things, including Spirits (which are phenomena itself, including space time) and by extension Great Spirits (the greatest/highest/broadest of Spirits in scope). A spirit just represents a physically manifested form of their essence, but their Essence subsists independently of said particular. All forms of a particular, no matter how strong or weak (or broad or narrow in scope in this case) still simply embody their Factor/Soul. Factors also distinguish one entity or particular from another (so to say it introduced differentiation). They define both a particular in properties unique to itself compared to the rest and also define it as a general "species" or "genera".

It isn't exactly "made up of it (information)" in a way that you can quantitatively reduce both the concept and the particular to the same information, though. It is more so that everything has a Soul both as a specific particular and as a broad particular, one way or another, and that Soul is then defined by Information. This is how it exists in every facet of the world. So to say if Souls condition the particular in question, Information defines that conditioning itself.

Now here's the thing; the Promised Land transcends this. As shown that it would not be affected by Initialize Heaven or even if Veldanava had Void Collapse, both of which destroy/absorb all information and information particles of all worlds:

(I never intended to use this except when creating a new world.)

That was a trump card for an emergency. “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Dominion (Initialize Heaven)” It is a technique that initializes the world and reconstructs it.
When Veldanava gave birth to the foundational world, what he used was an ultimate divine act called “Paradise Genesis (Beginning Eden).

By using this secret art, Veldanava lost “Void Collapse” and ceased to be “Omniscient and Omnipotent. Even so, he succeeded in descending into the world he had created. Now that he can no longer handle “divine acts,” the next best thing, “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Dominion (Initialize Heaven)," is the strongest divine technique that Veldanava can wield. With this, it should have been possible to destroy all worlds, including Rimuru.

Because in “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Overlord Realm (Initialize Heaven)” selection cannot be performed. As a result, he would be unable to take his friends along to the next generation world that is to be reconstructed. Moreover, he had not yet finished gathering the factors of his beloved Lucia. Ivaraje is one half of Veldanava, and even after passing through “Heaven and Earth Annihilation Overlord Realm (Initialize Heaven),” he will survive, but he will be far from being a complete Lucia.

If the lost Nihility Collapse had existed, it probably would have been possible to take in all worlds and also extract their information, but for the current Veldanava, it is an impossible technique. If the worlds were to disappear, Lucia's information particles as well would be lost.

Therefore, whether or not to use Heaven and Earth Collapsing Destruction World (Initialize Heaven) becomes, even for Veldanava, a painful decision.

However, there is no need to think about it too difficultly. Even if incomplete, Lucia is Lucia. If Veldanava wins, then that will mean it was the correct choice. The new world will probably be better than the current world.

Together with those who reached the promised place, he intended to create a more complete world.

Since Velzard and the others, who are his younger siblings, are also Dragon Species, they will likely be born once again in the new world. If he processes things so that the memories are not inherited, they should come to adore Veldanava again like before. Even his daughter Milim should surely be reincarnated once more. This time, because she will not be alone, she will not be lonely.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Sources (This one is extremely long so I had it translated in smaller sections)

Some may say that this just refers to only information of worlds and doesn't disapprove Promised Land transcending information. However, that doubt is erased by the next piece of evidence.

You see, Mariabell/Maria also descended when Granbell and others were manifested by Masayuki's skill. During this manifestation period, she came as a pure Digital Nature (information lifeform). She tried writing her own information onto Yuuki. When the Einherjar time limit was over and the heroes disappeared from the World, Maria, the "actual" Maria also disappeared, but all the Information was simply left behind:

When Masayuki unleashed the true power of his ultimate skill Lord of Heroes, Maribel was summoned along with Granville.

However, since she used Yuuki’s soul as a guidepost, she ended up in a place she didn’t understand at all. All she could do was wait for the darkness to return, but Maribel’s ego wasn’t about to take that sitting down. If she didn’t take revenge on Yuuki for killing her, she thought, the name Maribel the Greedy would be tarnished forever.

This was a mistake. She could have just left quietly after leaving a few resentful parting words for Yuuki, but instead she came up with a plan to embed her sentience within Yuuki’s powers. It was a classic example of being too clever for one’s own good.

An einherjar like her was a digital life-form, composed entirely of information alone(in essence). As a result, Maribel thought she could write her own information into Yuuki’s powers.

When she tried it, it actually worked—even better than she expected. Yuuki’s ultimate skill Mammon, Lord of Greed was originally an evolution of Maribel’s unique skill Avarice, making it a perfect match for Maribel. She felt right at home inside it, as if she had returned to her old nesting grounds. Even better, the entity that had been residing in Mammon at the time simply wasn’t there, leaving a mysterious void in its place. Maribel wound up slotting herself right in there without incident. Everything was fine up to that point. But then a strange thing happened to Maribel.

(Something’s wrong! Something’s very wrong! My skill is being eroded— No, that’s not right. I’m trying to take over its power!)

By the time she realized it, it was already too late. Maribel was the living embodiment of greed, a true queen of greed if there ever was one. So compatible with Mammon was she that she actually merged with its powers, becoming a permanent fixture. Now she and Mammon were basically the same thing, but that was not at all what Maribel was expecting. She had just wanted to harass Yuuki a little, but now she was in a situation she couldn’t escape on her own.

So after the einherjar Maribel disappeared once Masayuki’s power was turned off, it inadvertently left behind Maria, the new manas inside Yuuki.
OTL Volume 23, Chapter 3

I also got the relevant parts translated by @RaikiKurohane99 offsite just to be sure:

When Masayuki made the true power of the Ultimate Skill King of Heroes (True Hero) manifest, Mariabell was also summoned together with Granbell. However, because she appeared using Yuuki's soul as a guide, she ended up arriving at a place she could not make sense of. If she remained as she was, she would have only been waiting for her natural disappearance, but at that point Mariabell's ego strongly emerged.

A Dead Hero (Einherjar) is an existence of the same nature as an Information Lifeform (Digital Nature), so it can be said that it is composed only of information. Therefore, Mariabell thought that she would probably be able to write her own information into the Authority. When she actually tried it, it worked better than she had expected. Yuuki's Ultimate Skill King of Greed (Mammon) was, perhaps because it was an evolved form of the Unique Skill Greedy One (Greed) , which was originally Mariabell's Authority, extremely compatible with Mariabell as well, and it blended in smoothly with the feeling of having returned to her old home.

In this way, even after the Dead Hero (Mariabell) disappeared at the same time as Masayuki's release of his Authority, the Maria who had unintentionally become Yuuki's Divine Intelligence Core (Manas) was left behind.

This shows that the Promised Land lacks Information entirely. It is shown that the Heart Core of a person goes through the process of sublimation and is released from any and all "restrictions", so this likely accounts for that as well.

The moment Kondou's fingers touched it, the Nambu style large automatic pistol shone in a golden color. Bathed in Kondou's power, even its material changed, and it was reborn into Myth class (Gods).

And Kondou's soul was also inherited by Carrera through the pistol. However, its heart core was not included. Carrera knew. That the heart core of a human who attained enlightenment and reached a state without sin cannot be freely controlled, even if the soul is bound.

Freed from all constraints/limitation/restriction/condition, it is released from the wheel of Samsara and journeys toward the promised place. Namely, nirvana/Moksha/liberation/mukti/vimukti.
Volume 15, Chapter 5
Translation Source

"......What are you talking about?"
"Well, very well. So that even you, who are slow to understand, can comprehend it, I will teach you."
Luminous said this as if pitying Twilight.
And then, she continued, beginning her lecture.
"What is the most important thing as an element that forms a person a personality?"
"That is the soul, right. More precisely, it is the Heart Core and memories."
Hmm, Luminous nodded.

"From the side, they looked like master and disciple. Before anyone realized, the composition had become as if their positions had reversed.
When a person dies, the soul disperses, and then disappears. Some go through reincarnation, or in the underworld suffer torment from the Demon Race (Demons), or attain Buddhahood/Nirvana in other words, "sublimation." What can be said in common is: if the shape of the soul can no longer be maintained, that is death, and one reaches nothingness."

"......So?"
"So I thought. About the definition of death, and about eternal life. We are long lived beings, you know? In the first place, we have lifespans equal to infinity, so there is no need to worry about something like eternal life, is there?"
Volume 23, Chapter 2
Translation Source

"Sublimation" is a very specific word that means turning into a purer state, so strictly speaking, we can use this to show that the "information" of an Ascendent (if they have any at all) is qualitatively different (purer) compared to the non 1-A reality (dream).

So Promised Land exists outside and beyond the scope of non 1-A "Information", and by extension, would exist outside the scope of Type 1 Concepts (including those of Space-Time) that they define. So Information defining is mutually exclusive in this specific case, since information also defines type 1 concepts of everything, including that of space and time, and transcending Information is equivalent to both.

World Language

Alright so as listed in its profile:

Subjective Reality (The World Language can make fictional things become "Real" and summon Real things into Fiction)

And from the Skill page:

Law Manipulation, Reality Warping, Subjective Reality & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 - Skills are information engraved on the Heart Core, representing their true conceptual essence as part of the World Law, a "Phenomena Activation System"—an access to the Root/Foundation of the Laws granted by the World Language; Ultimately, other than the extent to which they allow for interference with the Laws of the World, including rewriting the Laws of Physics & Nature, and the Unique Laws of the World itself through the Laws of Magic to realize something that exists in potential in the Attributes, Skills and Magic are the same—The user makes a "Request/Wish" to the Voice of the World in a language it can understand, and as a result, the World Language realizes the desired result into Reality, allowing one to realize all kinds of Supernatural Anomalous Phenomena on a level bordering Miracles)

It has the power to influence the Promised Land, as shown that it can also recreate memories from the Promised Land itself. In fact, this is even more clearly shown in this scan that the Laws bind even the Promised Land:

And then Rudra turned toward Feldway, as if trying to hide his embarrassment.

"Well then, sorry to keep you waiting, Feldway."
".……It seems that you were the real thing after all. Are you planning to claim that you have overcome death while even ignoring the laws of this world?"
"No. I am still dead, and returning from the dead is impossible. But, you see, someone who makes the woman he loves cry can be punched even from the afterlife."
"Don't joke around. I'm serious, you know? Well, it's just that I haven't gone to the afterlife yet."

Although he was saying it jokingly, this statement of Rudra's was quite close to the truth. That is why he is residing within Masayuki like this, and as long as Michael's main body remains incarnated, it is not as though all of his memories have been reproduced.

At the same time that the effects of Masayuki's Authority end, Rudra's personality will disappear. However, those memories and experiences will accumulate and remain within Masayuki's heart. In other words, it means that Rudra will be able to manifest again from now on as well. Rudra is not kind hearted enough to explain that to him, but he has no particular intention of hiding it either.
Translation Source

Also, the Voice of the World also handles evolution itself, and determines when a person has reached a certain stage of evolution. As a result, it also manages the evolution of Enlightenment, which is one of the requirements for Ascension.

Furthermore, there exists something called the Voice of the World, which announces changes brought about by the laws of the world. When major changes occur to living beings such as the acquisition of skills or racial evolution through naming it may, on rare occasions, speak to them. However, its statements are one sided declarations, and communication is impossible.
Volume 8.5, World Guide
Translation Source

This useful ability-relaying words into my mind-isn't normally possible. As it explained to me, this "World Language" was heard only when there were great changes to the world or when you either earned or upgraded a skill-something that normally didn't happen all that often. These skills were obtained only rarely, when the world recognized that you had grown in one way or another.

Evolution, meanwhile, was something most people never got to experience in their lives. It was all Greek to me, but if that was how it was, I was willing to accept it.
OTL Volume 1, Chapter 1

I was so shocked, I could barely even speak.

Huh?...Huh?!

It made me literally do a double take. These guys were like little imps a moment ago, maybe closer to baboons than humans, and now -well, to use their official terminology-the males were "hobgoblins" and the females "goblinas," although the latter sounded pretty stupid to me. They had both evolved, and according to Rigurd, they had heard the so-called World Language when they did-something that all evolved creatures experienced. A very rare occurrence, and one that excited Rigurd to no end, judging by how he couldn't shut up about it.
OTL Volume 1, Chapter 1

In time, he advanced to the rank of cardinal, the loftiest in the Western Holy Church. In the Lubelius noble hierarchy, he was no one particularly special. But he redoubled his efforts, extending his interests to magic beyond the holy spells he was familiar with. He would hold long discussions about magic with Gadora, one of his best friends at the time, as he incessantly polished his skills. The effort eventually paid off-he became an Enlightened, transcending the bounds of humanity itself.

An Enlightened was a person who retained their human form but on the inside was a demi-spiritual being, similar to a higher-level elemental. Their powers were leaps and bounds above those of a regular human, and they were often seen as defenders of the human cause. This power quickly put Adalmann in a position of immense central authority.
Volume 6, Chapter 4

When humans undergo harsh training, there are times when, after a long passage of time, they evolve into higher beings. Those who accomplish this are called Sennin , and their lifespans increase dramatically while their physical bodies transform into structures that are nearly those of spiritual lifeforms.

They are existences freed from the shackles of the physical body. Therefore, the amount of energy that those of the Sennin class can wield becomes enormous. Their physical strength and the precision of their magic are enhanced to a degree incomparable to ordinary humans, making them powerful enough to rival the Demon Lord Seed. They are the protectors of humanity the properly evolved messengers of God. That said, this is merely a standard established by humans...
Volume 7
Translation Source

Possible Arguments and Counters

Veldanava "descended" into the Cardinal World, but he's supposed to originally be 1-A. Isn't that an anti-feat?

Answer: No. Under VSBW standards, we do not consider a 1-A descending by themselves as an anti-feat, unless there's something that suggests quantitative reduction ONLY (Keep in mind, descending resulting in being weaker isn't by itself an anti-feat as long as there's no anti feat in it not being a qualitative reduction).

Arceus Qualitative Upgrade

could someone list the anti feats avatar arceus has? i legit only remember him fighting the creation trio in like, the jewel of life movie, and i don't think i need to explain why the old depiction of arceus full of plot stuff for nerfing would count I think Jewel of Life is the only real one...

vsbattles.com

Laws of the World encompass both the Promised Land and the regular reality, shouldn't that be an anti-feat?

Answer: No, because the Laws (Attributes) aren't some "conceptual energy" (quantitatively reducible), they are simply principles and laws that define everything. Plus they're created by Veldanava, who created everything, so in the end there's no anti-feat via higher being's involvement. These Laws are, however, Absolute and Immutable.

Promised Land could just be one's lasting memory before death.

Answer: No, not only is the name literally "Promised Land/Place", there's also the fact that beings that are once again summoned from the Promised Land into fictional bodies can remember what they did in the Promised Land.

They "Walk" towards the Promised Land, whereas you can't just walk from a non 1-A reality to a 1-A one (as it implies causal relation).

Answer: No, because Promised Land is a "place" in a higher reality, it's not the higher reality itself. The liberators have already sublimated upon death and release from Samsara, and reached the "1-A" state.

What if the "seeing as a dream" is metaphorical?

Answer: No. That's going wayy too into the unnecessary negative interpretation when the world is literally called a dream SEVEN TIMES in the same scan, and manifestations of PL residents in it are called fictional/imaginary. It's also emphasized TWO times that "because it (the world) is a dream".

~~At that point arguing for the sake of arguing would be a better classification of said stance~~

It's said Veldanava can 'create a new world' where his siblings and Milim would reincarnate into, along with those from the promised land.

Answer: Andd that is not an anti-feat in any way. We already know Promised Land people can dream different dreams (with the current dream being = all worlds and dimensions currently established), so it is not an anti-feat for that thing to be shown as a reincarnation into recreated existence. This also does not mean Veldanava is directly influencing the promised land in any way (even if he was, it would be through the World Language, which again overarches everything as defined by Veldanava in his prime before he descended.

Also, the entire "Descend" process is already hinted through Masayuki's summoning stuff (since they can dream the same world too as said in V11Epilogue) because the summoned entities actually have memories of stuff they did in the Promised Land.

Promised Land people being summoned by Masayuki could be an anti-feat.

Answer: No, it's not even close to that. Not only is the act of descending itself not an anti-feat for a 1-A unless substantial as a result of some quantitative reduction, which we assume normally isn't the case, the thing summoning them is a Skill, the same hax that utilizes the World Language.
It is literally this from our page:

Law Manipulation, Reality Warping, Subjective Reality & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 - Skills are information engraved on the Heart Core, representing their true conceptual essence as part of the World Law, a "Phenomena Activation System"—an access to the Root/Foundation of the Laws granted by the World Language; Ultimately, other than the extent to which they allow for interference with the Laws of the World, including rewriting the Laws of Physics & Nature, and the Unique Laws of the World itself through the Laws of Magic to realize something that exists in potential in the Attributes, Skills and Magic are the same—The user makes a "Request/Wish" to the Voice of the World in a language it can understand, and as a result, the World Language realizes the desired result into Reality, allowing one to realize all kinds of Supernatural Anomalous Phenomena on a level bordering Miracles)

The World Language already encompasses the Promised Land, and it can turn real things into fictional and fictional ones into real, so again not a problem.

Those summoned by Masayuki's Skill from the Promised Land are called "Fakes", meaning they aren't actual manifestations of the real ascendants.

Answer: Nope. Actually, this reinforces the R>F even more.
You see, these so called "Fakes" are just fakes in the sense that they are fictional entities with a real body. They have all their memories, including those from the Promised Land, and their power is at their prime. They are only fakes in that the real self is already in the Promised Land, while this manifested self is in a fictional/dream world. This is why it's said "this conversation itself was an illusion".

When they are summoned, they also use a Guidepost (someone they had a close connection with in the past) and are summoned near them. They have their own original sentience/self-awareness and are not just some program. There is also the case that if they try to engrave some Information into something inside the world, such as their own existential information, that information can be left behind once the Summoning ends and the actual Summoned Ascendent disappears from the World once again. And that reference data left behind (the ego and memories) are what we can call "Fakes" in the sense of being duplications/copies of someone real.

It's portrayed as an Afterlife.

Answer: Wholly unrelated. A higher reality being or not being portrayed as an anti-feat was never a qualifier nor disqualifier either way around. Take for example DKD, where the Afterlife is portrayed as some higher reality.

Yes, I'm aware that the context in both settings is not 1:1, but that doesn't prevent it from being set as a precedent. A higher reality can be portrayed as some Void, or even the average world just more "real" by being above some game world, or what not. What matters is if the realm's superiority is derived from ontologically higher nature or not.

TL;DR:-
Now, a summary of what is said above:

Promised Land sees reality as a dream. They can dream it again and they can dream something entirely different as well. This shows that the relation between the dream and the dreamer is the same as between us (a real person) and the diversity of the dreams we have. It is not a metaphor and is meant to be completely literal.
Supporting evidence includes it transcending space and time as a genera through transcending Fate and Information.

A summary of the proposals:

Veldanava (Pre-Descent), World Language/VOTW (including all Attributes/Laws that are a part of it) and Great Holy Spirit are 1-A. The Great Holy Spirit being 1-A would naturally mean the God key for True Dragons (which is basically a copy-paste of God profile over all the avatar profiles) is also 1-A.
Sublimation, and as a result, Promised Land is 1-A due to R>F
Those who have ascended to the Promised Land (such as Granbell, Maria and co.) would 1-A in a hypothetical key for Promised Land, if it was ever made. The description of that hypothetical key can be simply "Ascended to the Promised Land", so simple that it doesn't need a separate CRT. These are the only characters that ascended anyways, so ABSOLUTELY NO ONE ELSE is getting a 1-A key unless we get some more Liberators in the future side stories.
Things that work through the World Language (Magic and Skills) would have a 1-A mechanic for them.

Votes

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral/Miscellaneous:

________________________________________________
Hope you enjoyed reading! That was all for this thread

See you next time~

Ciel_Trinity439 · Sunday at 20:49

I agree

AlexSamDen · Sunday at 20:49

Seems reasonable

Astral_Trinity439 · Sunday at 20:52

Both came so fast that even the notifications were confused who came first

Dark_Soul20189 · Sunday at 20:56

Absolute ~~Wank~~ Lamp

Ultimuru · Sunday at 20:56

Agree.

Korf3ll · Sunday at 20:59

Agree, W CRT and W work

K'rimuru · Sunday at 21:07

These holidays are even more perfect now. (agree)

MSahla · Sunday at 21:10

ForgotWhy.exe · Sunday at 21:13

Seems fine.

Incomprehensibleexistence · Sunday at 21:17

Agree. ~~Whoever disagrees won't get nitro btw~~

Soulking22334 · Sunday at 21:18

I can smell a great war approaching.

Noobish2006 · Sunday at 21:20

agree (1-A zegion when ?)

Mido02 · Sunday at 21:24

Incomprehensibleexistence said:
Agree. ~~Whoever disagrees won't get nitro btw~~

See @Ferno1234 you better behave

BattlerUsh · Sunday at 21:37

1A Tensura? Hell yeah

LadyVeldanava · Sunday at 21:38

Yaaaaa

NaeveTeller · Sunday at 21:39

This humble lamb shall agree.

Re5yh · Sunday at 21:42

We got 1-A Tensura before GTA 6. Agree

Eseseso · Sunday at 21:43

1-A based on R>F seems ok.

~~Gimme 1-A smurfs for Marvel people to fight~~

EdosaEdebiri · Sunday at 21:47

Kinda agree with 1-A

Well done Asty

BattlerUsh · Sunday at 21:53

EdosaEdebiri said:
Kinda agree with 1-A

Well done Asty

Hello Edosa

Long time no see

Youngwolf-0.1 · Sunday at 22:04

Finally 1-A tensura

MSahla · Sunday at 22:10

Surely the next upgrade CRT for Tensura's rating will be High 1-A.. right?

Ayato256 · Sunday at 22:15

Agree with the promised thread

MotherStar · Sunday at 22:30

"The Promised Land" has been my top pick for quite some time now, and all the arguments in this CRT are solid, so I completely agree with them.

Robo432343 · Sunday at 22:33

No WN revision? disagree

RimuruTempestLN · Sunday at 22:38

Re5yh said:
We got 1-A Tensura before GTA 6. Agree

I agree.

Pluto321 · Sunday at 23:32

Agree

Tyrkanzyaka · Sunday at 23:41

Smh, 1-A tensura in the big 26’? Anyways, agreed, the scale looks fine.

Neoxxi16 · 2026-07-13T00:29:07+0100

I’m not going to comment on the scaling itself, but the point about "Things that work through the World Language would have a 1-A mechanic for them" should either be explained in much more detail or left for a separate thread. It covers a wide range of topics, from magic and the use of skills to spiritual beings that are embodiments of laws/attributes, as well as the attributes themselves.

I think there was already a thread about this, though I’m not completely sure. Either way, it would be a good idea to mention it and link to the section where it’s explained in the cosmology/species blog.

LiewtiStar · 2026-07-13T01:11:20+0100

It's finally happening
I Agree with the R>F slop

Bernkastelll · 2026-07-13T01:13:56+0100

100% agree

BoastJr · 2026-07-13T01:33:55+0100

I agree

Rimuru solos

Humanitus_Primevilus888 · 2026-07-13T02:06:26+0100

I slept through again srsly? Anyway I do not have the authority to disagree on this btw can you list the characters with this cuz that would be helpful :

Things that work through the World Language would have a 1-A mechanic for them.

Another question how about Nihility collapse Wielders? I mean even Pre-descent Veldanava have this as his strongest arsenal at the time.

Luminous_Twighlight_Valentine_Simp · 2026-07-13T02:19:01+0100

1A GoatNava? Am I in heaven? Absolutely agreed

Re5yh · 2026-07-13T03:21:45+0100

Hellscream said:
Any percentage on the amount of people typing agree, without having even read a single sentence in the thread outside of 1-A Tensura ?

I have read the full arguments, this is why I agree

Bernkastelll · 2026-07-13T03:29:32+0100

Hellscream said:
Any percentage on the amount of people typing agree, without having even read a single sentence in the thread outside of 1-A Tensura ?

According to official researches, 99% of the people typing agree have indeed read the entire thread before agreeing

Mr._East_Statement · 2026-07-13T03:36:41+0100

So I just make a quick comment of disagreement, pointing some things, and it remains for whoever to read to decide, since I do have things to be concerned about and not care about getting jumped. (I hope you burn in hell @Hecky2222, you could use 250M years of soul refinement to cleanse your karma, I could be sleep if you just wouldn't show me this)

To start, it is clear as the day as Tensura ~~larping Buddhism of several different schools in a hellish mess~~ seems to be greatly inspired by Buddhist concepts, and generally tries ~~to follow it but mixed more than it needed~~ follow it.

First thing first, I'll just summarize from start to anything before independence from everything because the statements are literally the same (and I rather to ignore independence from everything section, for that is only to establish Promised Land is independent of information).

Exhibit A: Cycle of Reincarnation; Samara

The world is govern by emotions, by which are necessary for human growth, as the text acknowledges. The Cycle of Samsara is origin of life, eternal reincarnation by which the world is a ground for soul's training, the soul either reincarnates in a new life with no memories of the past or goes into Otherworld to be purified of its karma. That's generally the gist of it.

Now, the main way to be free from it is generally

Through the process of Reincarnation, people live aiming for a better World. They overcome challenges and refine their Soul, entrusting it to the next generation. It is through this process of refinement that the 3rd option is unlocked; Enlightenment—and consequently—Liberation. That is, a release from the Cycle of Reincarnation and freed from all restrictions/conditions/limitations whatsoever, going through the process of Sublimation and attaining Nirvana, ultimately arriving at the Promised Land.

That the heart core of a human who had attained enlightenment and reached one who is without sin cannot be made free even if the soul is bound.
Without being subject to any kind of constraint/limitation/restriction, it is released from the wheel of reincarnation and departs on a journey to the promised place.
That is, liberation (nirvana/moksha).

It seems that from refining their souls and heart core (that is, causally holds ontological prior to all things, including souls, and is initiated within them, and thus exists throughout all things) of an individual attaining enlightenment/liberation, by which they are "free from all kinds of limits", by which, I believe it is contextually apt to conclude it means causal limits and constraints.

Because, after all, cycle of the reincarnation is just a form of causal system, by which time-space, "life", and even Fate (… that is acknowledged even by op to be just Casuality itself). I even dare say, Buddhism arguably needs "causal" more than it needs "reincarnation."

With their cooperation obtained, finally the ideal environment was completed. A system of eternal recurrence was constructed so that the soul would circulate through all dimensions.

Thus, each world came to develop in a wide variety of ways.
When everything began to function well, the wheel of fate turned greatly. Meeting Lucia, Veldanava came to know love.
Volume 23, Chapter 5
Translation Source

This Fate is synonym with Causality:
"May you rest peacefully."
As though guided by Luminous's voice, the former Hero, who had fought through a long span of time, was released from that causality and dispersed into the world.
Volume 11, Chapter 5
Translation Source
[Causality here also means Fate]

That was an absurd line of reasoning. Unless one is guided by a great destiny like the Hero, controlling time is impossible with a Unique level Authority.
Volume 21, Chapter 1

Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light. The correlation between space and time was beyond Mai's understanding. Furthermore, the probability of being able to arrive at the time and place where her beloved brother was alive was infinitesimal.
Volume 21, Chapter 4
Translation Source

That is, from the texts regarding Samara, it does not give us any more than liberation from the causal order of the world that grounds all things. In fact, the text even barely gives us a proper factor for causal superiority, even, reading through despite how it seems to be posit for within CRT.

In other words, I would like to say that the entire texts are really irrelevant for the 1-A, as they also do not give us any factor of diffrentation.

~~Ignore the below~~

What I already want to clear is… it's jumping multiple branches of Buddhism. The way Samsara is explained is too bloated with more stuff that is only relevant to Tensura. "Refining souls" is not how you get enlightenment in Buddhism, not in the primary sense.

Also, liberation happens as an effect, while this here seems like a cause that is preceded by another cause of refining their soul that causes to "transcend" to Promised Land. Promised Land is probably an allegory for Pure Lands in Mahayana.... but... liberation after death is mostly Theraveda.... also, you become "non-existent" in a sense when you die in Theraveda as you're free from change itself while liberation in Mahayana is more of enlightenment of nature....

… Of course, with such a verse, you cannot keep trace.

Also, if they're truly free of cause/effect… the summoning part is still wholly questionable in nature: because even if it's a "fake", there needs to be something that tethers them, specially if they also remember stuff from the Promised Land.

Like um, do they have causal relation or not. Make up your mind, Fuse-sensei.

But of course, again, that is not our problem, but as I already said within the text it offers no clear factor of diffrentation—or any—at all. And seems very atp for us to conclude it is about causal order of Samara, by which also the reason for lose of constraints and limitations.

So sorry for me finding the entirety of this sections kind of pointless, in any manner of implication for a proper indexation of 1-A, specially when many other lesser reducible model—such as the very one the verse itself trying to use in fact—satisfies the conditions without ontological superiority.

With all of these said, you may say "but the R > F!" We are reaching to it now, be patient, that's the only hope for a factor of diffrentation after all.

And it is… entirely "hell nah" moment for me.

Exhibit B: Promised Land's "R > F."

It is R > F vro it is called a dreeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaam multiple times

… Well, no.

It seems the 1-A argumentation is just how Buddhism positions freedom from the causal chains???

Unless you want to argue in Buddhism, which Samsara is not "fiction"/"illusion" in the sense of being completely unreal, is somehow is in Tensura, by which it left us with no factor of diffrentation again other than claiming it is a dream. But it do use the language of illusionary, Buddhism doesn't do R > F in the sense we use in wiki for genuine qualitative superiority between a lower reality and higher "simpler" reality that cannot be reached by the promotions of all objects lower than it, or any claims such as that.

And guess what? Is Nirvana freedom from causality?

No, not from causality itself. Buddhism doesn't reject causation entirely (though: Nagarjuna spends the entire first chapter of the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā dismantling causation itself, arguing nothing arises from itself, from something else, from both, or from neither. His point isn't "nothing is caused", it's that causation, like everything else, turns out to be śūnya: empty of any fixed, self-existing power. It works at the conventional level. It has no ultimate footing underneath it. Samsara is causal the way a currency can have value, real enough to transact in, without being backed by anything with inherent worth beneath it), funnily enough.

Honestly, I'd push back slightly on "illusion", if it was me since that word does more work in Advaita Vedānta, than in Buddhism proper. And the case here really doesn't position for that we all do know.

Nirvāṇa is defined by exact contrast: it's asaṃskṛta, unconditioned, sitting outside the causal machinery that generates Samsara entirely.

The Udāna states this, about as plainly as these texts get: "there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned", without which, it adds, there'd be no escape from the born, made, and conditioned at all.

Oh now unfortunate, that, Nagarjuna won't even leave you that clean split. The same text argues samsara and nirvāṇa share an identical "limit" — in essence, not the slightest difference between them. That's a specifically Madhyamaka move however, I admit; Theravāda tends to keep nirvāṇa more sharply distinct, an actual cessation you arrive at.

And so, plainly, Nirvana (enlightenment) is freedom from the specific causal chain that produces suffering and rebirth, that is, Cycle of Reincarnation, Samara.

Which leaves an honest loose thread if I want to admit, because, let's say, if the path to that insight, such as ethics, meditation, the whole Eightfold Path, is itself causal, conditioned, one-thing-generating-another just like everything else in Samsara, how does a causal method deliver you to something defined as entirely outside causation? We are not here to argue philosophy of actual Buddhism however, so I just wanted to leave this question for anyone enjoys contemplation.

Even more so when things such as the central doctrine is Dependent Origination:

Because this exists, that arises. Because this ceases, that ceases.

Even the literal Twelve Links describe how ignorance conditions formations, formations condition consciousness, and so on until birth, aging, and death. When ignorance is extinguished, the chain is broken.

So liberation isn't escaping all causality, even, FUNNILY ENOUGH, it's ending the causal process that perpetuates Samsara.

Many Buddhist texts use dream-like analogies to describe Samsara which, by the way, is NOT because it is literally nonexistent, but because "we mistake conditioned appearances for independently existing realities." Even, perhaps, the final talk also being an "illusion" and "fake", wants to point at that?

The distinction, such as between conditioned causality and the cessation of the causes of suffering, is what Buddhist arguing really.

And this is 1-A???? Shrug, yep, not in agreement.

Edit: And, yes, keeping track and knowing different schools of Buddhism, I am also referencing to many different schools of thoughts and positions, instead of one, on different parts, it is clear cut, it is to show that the "dream" analogy does not really work under any of them if you want befallen on their hills.

Humanitus_Primevilus888 · 2026-07-13T04:03:31+0100

Mr._East_Statement said:
So I just make a quick comment of disagreement, pointing some things, and it remains for whoever to read to decide, since I do have things to be concerned about and not care about getting jumped. (I hope you burn in hell @Hecky2222, you could use 250M years of soul refinement to cleanse your karma, I could be sleep if you just wouldn't show me this)

To start, it is clear as the day as Tensura ~~larping Buddhism of several different schools in a hellish mess~~ seems to be greatly inspired by Buddhist concepts, and generally tries ~~to follow it but mixed more than it needed~~ follow it.

First thing first, I'll just summarize from start to anything before independence from everything because the statements are literally the same (and I rather to ignore independence from everything section, for that is only to establish Promised Land is independent of information).

Exhibit A: Cycle of Reincarnation; Samara

The world is govern by emotions, by which are necessary for human growth, as the text acknowledges. The Cycle of Samsara is origin of life, eternal reincarnation by which the world is a ground for soul's training, the soul either reincarnates in a new life with no memories of the past or goes into Otherworld to be purified of its karma. That's generally the gist of it.

Now, the main way to be free from it is generally

It seems that from refining their souls and heart core (that is, causally holds ontological prior to all things, including souls, and is initiated within them, and thus exists throughout all things) of an individual attaining enlightenment/liberation, by which they are "free from all kinds of limits", by which, I believe it is contextually apt to conclude it means causal limits and constraints.

Because, after all, cycle of the reincarnation is just a form of causal system, by which time-space, "life", and even Fate (… that is acknowledged even by op to be just Casuality itself). I even dare say, Buddhism arguably needs "causal" more than it needs "reincarnation."

That is, from the texts regarding Samara, it does not give us any more than liberation from the causal order of the world that grounds all things. In fact, the text even barely gives us a proper factor for causal superiority, even, reading through despite how it seems to be posit for within CRT.

In other words, I would like to say that the entire texts are really irrelevant for the 1-A, as they also do not give us any factor of diffrentation.

~~Ignore the below~~

What I already want to clear is… it's jumping multiple branches of Buddhism. The way Samsara is explained is too bloated with more stuff that is only relevant to Tensura. "Refining souls" is not how you get enlightenment in Buddhism, not in the primary sense.

Also, liberation happens as an effect, while this here seems like a cause that is preceded by another cause of refining their soul that causes to "transcend" to Promised Land. Promised Land is probably an allegory for Pure Lands in Mahayana.... but... liberation after death is mostly Theraveda.... also, you become "non-existent" in a sense when you die in Theraveda as you're free from change itself while liberation in Mahayana is more of enlightenment of nature....

… Of course, with such a verse, you cannot keep trace.

Also, if they're truly free of cause/effect… the summoning part is still wholly questionable in nature: because even if it's a "fake", there needs to be something that tethers them, specially if they also remember stuff from the Promised Land.

Like um, do they have causal relation or not. Make up your mind, Fuse-sensei.

But of course, again, that is not our problem, but as I already said within the text it offers no clear factor of diffrentation—or any—at all. And seems very atp for us to conclude it is about causal order of Samara, by which also the reason for lose of constraints and limitations.

So sorry for me finding the entirety of this sections kind of pointless, in any manner of implication for a proper indexation of 1-A, specially when many other lesser reducible model—such as the very one the verse itself trying to use in fact—satisfies the conditions without ontological superiority.

With all of these said, you may say "but the R > F!" We are reaching to it now, be patient, that's the only hope for a factor of diffrentation after all.

And it is… entirely "hell nah" moment for me.

Exhibit B: Promised Land's "R > F."

… Well, no.

It seems the 1-A argumentation is just how Buddhism positions freedom from the causal chains???

Unless you want to argue in Buddhism, which Samsara is not "fiction"/"illusion" in the sense of being completely unreal, is somehow is in Tensura, by which it left us with no factor of diffrentation again other than claiming it is a dream. But it do use the language of illusionary, Buddhism doesn't do R > F in the sense we use in wiki for genuine qualitative superiority between a lower reality and higher "simpler" reality that cannot be reached by the promotions of all objects lower than it, or any claims such as that.

And guess what? Is Nirvana freedom from causality?

No, not from causality itself. Buddhism doesn't reject causation entirely (though: Nagarjuna spends the entire first chapter of the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā dismantling causation itself, arguing nothing arises from itself, from something else, from both, or from neither. His point isn't "nothing is caused", it's that causation, like everything else, turns out to be śūnya: empty of any fixed, self-existing power. It works at the conventional level. It has no ultimate footing underneath it. Samsara is causal the way a currency can have value, real enough to transact in, without being backed by anything with inherent worth beneath it), funnily enough.

Honestly, I'd push back slightly on "illusion", if it was me since that word does more work in Advaita Vedānta, than in Buddhism proper. And the case here really doesn't position for that we all do know.

Nirvāṇa is defined by exact contrast: it's asaṃskṛta, unconditioned, sitting outside the causal machinery that generates Samsara entirely.

The Udāna states this, about as plainly as these texts get: "there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned", without which, it adds, there'd be no escape from the born, made, and conditioned at all.

Oh now unfortunate, that, Nagarjuna won't even leave you that clean split. The same text argues samsara and nirvāṇa share an identical "limit" — in essence, not the slightest difference between them. That's a specifically Madhyamaka move however, I admit; Theravāda tends to keep nirvāṇa more sharply distinct, an actual cessation you arrive at.

And so, plainly, Nirvana (enlightenment) is freedom from the specific causal chain that produces suffering and rebirth, that is, Cycle of Reincarnation, Samara.

Which leaves an honest loose thread if I want to admit, because, let's say, if the path to that insight, such as ethics, meditation, the whole Eightfold Path, is itself causal, conditioned, one-thing-generating-another just like everything else in Samsara, how does a causal method deliver you to something defined as entirely outside causation? We are not here to argue philosophy of actual Buddhism however, so I just wanted to leave this question for anyone enjoys contemplation.

Even more so when things such as the central doctrine is Dependent Origination:

Even the literal Twelve Links describe how ignorance conditions formations, formations condition consciousness, and so on until birth, aging, and death. When ignorance is extinguished, the chain is broken.

So liberation isn't escaping all causality, even, FUNNILY ENOUGH, it's ending the causal process that perpetuates Samsara.

Many Buddhist texts use dream-like analogies to describe Samsara which, by the way, is NOT because it is literally nonexistent, but because "we mistake conditioned appearances for independently existing realities." Even, perhaps, the final talk also being an "illusion" and "fake", wants to point at that?

The distinction, such as between conditioned causality and the cessation of the causes of suffering, is what Buddhist arguing really.

And this is 1-A???? Shrug, yep, not in agreement.

Ngl, I heart fully agree that people usually just throw around religious terms like "Nirvana" or "Samsara" from Buddhism just to make the world-building sound complex for a higher tier or what not. But the the thing we focus on is how the mechanics work and Not the comparisons of the Tensura’s Nirvana to the Actual Nirvana and the even bigger reason why is that Astral has already addressed the counter-arguments we had in our heads while reading the CRT and Make me fully agree. Again if you disagree then I respect your wish, but I think the mechanics they laid out in the CRT speak for themselves.

Hecky2222 · 2026-07-13T04:12:16+0100

Humanitus_Primevilus888 said:
Ngl, I heart fully agree that people usually just throw around religious terms like "Nirvana" or "Samsara" from Buddhism just to make the world-building sound complex for a higher tier or what not. But the the thing we focus on is how the mechanics work and Not the comparisons of the Tensura’s Nirvana to the Actual Nirvana and the even bigger reason why is that Astral has already addressed the counter-arguments we had in our heads while reading the CRT and Make me fully agree. Again if you disagree then I respect your wish, but I think the mechanics they laid out in the CRT speak for themselves.

Then it should be just removed?

If argument is solely based on dreaming stuff just argue with it. First part of thread self sabotage itself. I mostly share opinion with East on buddistic interpretation.

Also counters doesn’t address arguments against how it doesn't share things with rl life analogy. It is js why dreaming stuff relevant

Like I said before to others, if you larp lot, you will get larp diffed

TenSura LN Revision — The Land Promised To Us 3000 Years Ago

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