The Long awaited Speed downgrade of New 52 Flash

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 10:00

Alright, I can't even lie, it's kind of insane seeing Barry's Post-Flashpoint Profile and he's automatically MFTL+ off of This ONE feat. Like unironically if we're only using 1 feat we could just start cherry picking feats from characters like Spiderman and start upgrading them to FTL and greater

It gives me the impression that when making his profile we didn't actually care about his consistent speed scaling in the New 52! Otherwise we might realize that he genuinely doesn't ever MOVE at MFTL+ speeds, in fact a whole plot point for him is to Not Go to fast (Beyond the Speed of Light) otherwise bad things happen

We see this happen and proven here

Now let's look at a bunch of feats he has beyond literally one thing that never comes up again!

Barry Dodges Lightning
Sees Rifle Bullets, and maybe a nuke, in Slow-Mo
Flash outruns an explosion
Flash Travels all of Central City to help people
Flash Clears Tokyo in 30 seconds
Barry accidentally travels to East Africa from Central City
Barry goes from Central City to Keystone City quickly
Barry and Kid Flash run around the Earth quickly
Barry and Kid Flash are concerned with ESCAPE VELOCITY!!

The list goes on and on and on. Barry has not a single MFTL+ movement speed or otherwise feat in his solo run that isn't a crazy outlier compared to the rest of his series!!! Like he can move FTL because going into the Speed Force for time travelling, however, he's not MFTL+ much less consistently in the New 52.

So the Proposal, we have a couple different things we can do:

A. Downgrade specifically New 52 Post-Flashpoint Flash to FTL movement speed max with maybe MFTL+ Reactions. Superman could keep his stuff since Flash straight up implies that Superman is faster than him flying, this would effectively only downgrade Barry since most of the League has fought with Supes and the like in Space where they can actually move at these speeds

B. Just give him a "Varies" tier, "High Hypersonic+, Varies, up to MFTL+ Reaction speed", this also reduces the downgrading of profiles as a whole

C. Acknowledge that the New 52 is probably the most speed grounded time for these characters and these characters only ever move "MFTL+" in space. So downgrade basically everyone to around Barry's level if they're only fighting on Earth, and split Superman/Supergirl/Anyone else who scales to their space combat/flight speed into different categories, ie "on earth" or "in space"

D. Ignore it and say "**** consistency that's to much work"

KirbyFan03 · Tuesday at 10:33

**** the N52

Agree

Qawsedf234 · Tuesday at 12:25

FroYoSans said:
Flash Clears Tokyo in 30 seconds

Tokyo has like 10-14 million people depending on the year rhe comic was published in. If Flash is covering more than like 5 miles, then you're getting FTL+, more if you have him travel a higher distance.

Also Flash scales to Superman's flightspeed, which does have multiple MFTL+ showings. While I get changing his justifications, the rating itself isn't unfounded.

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 16:33

Qawsedf234 said:
Tokyo has like 10-14 million people depending on the year rhe comic was published in. If Flash is covering more than like 5 miles, then you're getting FTL+, more if you have him travel a higher distance.

This comic was published in 2013, also I thought the same thing once however we don't have any defined distance, we can't assume he travels the entire area of Tokyo each time. If you really want we could divide it by 4 however that wouldn't make sense either, we can't assume the amount of area he traveled each time, especially since that amount would be wildly different each time. Also even if I were to concede, FTL+ is still a far cry from MFTL+

Qawsedf234 said:
Also Flash scales to Superman's flightspeed, which does have multiple MFTL+ showings. While I get changing his justifications, the rating itself isn't unfounded.

New 52 Flash has shown no such thing, at the very least in space where I already said these justifications were. The rating itself is entirely unfounded, it ignores narrative consistency to a disgusting degree to ride the high of 1 feat!!

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 16:44

KirbyFan03 said:
**** the N52

Agree

I agree, the storytelling is actually really good for that Flash run though but yeah it's powerscaling and storytelling is all over the place.

Also I'm not sure how to count votes but if I do count you, could you clarify which proposal you agree with? Or if it's just the idea of downgrading New 52 Flash

KirbyFan03 · Tuesday at 16:55

FroYoSans said:
I agree, the storytelling is actually really good for that Flash run though but yeah it's powerscaling and storytelling is all over the place.

Also I'm not sure how to count votes but if I do count you, could you clarify which proposal you agree with? Or if it's just the idea of downgrading New 52 Flash

Oh no I'm agreeing solely on the basis of hating New 52

Qawsedf234 · Tuesday at 17:15

FroYoSans said:
can't assume he travels the entire area of Tokyo each time

If Tokoyo is going under water, he'd need to move those millions of people to an elevation that would be above the flood line for the area. Which can easily ramp up the distances.

FroYoSans said:
If you really want we could divide it by 4 however that wouldn't make sense either, we can't assume the amount of area he traveled each time, especially since that amount would be wildly different each time.

It would average out, since he'd have to travel across the entirety of the city to search for everyone.

FroYoSans said:
New 52 Flash has shown no such thing, at the very least in space where I already said these justifications were.

Superman and Co. all scale reactions to their flight speed, since they either fight people while flying at those velocities or do complex movements.

Since Flash is faster than Superman's top spees, he'd scale above Superman's flightspeed as well. Your scan is saying that while Flash is faster than Superman, he lacks aspects of Superman's kit like flight.

FroYoSans said:
ignores narrative consistency to a disgusting degree to ride the high of 1 feat!!

The lightspeed thing's main issue is inconsistency on DC's end. Both Post-Crisis ans Post-Rebirth Wally/Barry have similar FTL = Speedforce limitations despite that being contradicted at various points.

I just don't see how we can downgrade Flash without also downgrading the entirety of the New 52 Superman-class characters.

Purgy · Tuesday at 17:23

FroYoSans said:
Flash Clears Tokyo in 30 seconds

Is there more context for this feat? Because Flash is already visibly evacuating people when he makes the statement, so it can be interpreted as him only needing thirty seconds more to finish evacuating everyone, the page provides no time frame for when he began.

Ozcantabak · Tuesday at 17:26

What Quawsedf said, even if you want to say Superman is faster via flying, he isn't morbillion times faster, if he was he would have never gotten hit by Darkseid's omega beam.

AyOgUyS · Tuesday at 17:28

Ozcantabak said:
What Quawsedf said, even if you want to say Superman is faster via flying, he isn't morbillion times faster, if he was he would have never gotten hit by Darkseid's omega beam.

I am also of the opinion that Supes' combat and reactions are in the same general ballpark as his flight speed.

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 22:15

KirbyFan03 said:
Oh no I'm agreeing solely on the basis of hating New 52

That's based

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 22:16

Ozcantabak said:
What Quawsedf said, even if you want to say Superman is faster via flying, he isn't morbillion times faster, if he was he would have never gotten hit by Darkseid's omega beam.

Holy lord, you mean he DOESNT fly billions of times FTL on EARTH?!?!?! Holy Jesus it's almost like I said this

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 22:31

Qawsedf234 said:
If Tokoyo is going under water, he'd need to move those millions of people to an elevation that would be above the flood line for the area. Which can easily ramp up the distances.

There are too many assumptions, we have no concrete total distance, only a timeframe

Qawsedf234 said:
It would average out, since he'd have to travel across the entirety of the city to search for everyone.

Regardless this doesn't change the problem at hand, we have no defined distance

Qawsedf234 said:
Superman and Co. all scale reactions to their flight speed, since they either fight people while flying at those velocities or do complex movements.

Which isn't always at peak performance as we already know, unless you're going to argue that literally his entire Rogue's gallery is MFTL+ like this seems obvious no? They're simply not that fast on Earth. Flash straight up proves this, he has a multitude of nothing but High Hypersonic-Rel+ feats ay max and yet is still MFTL+ regardless. Hell I was willing to give him MFTL+ Reactions and If you want combat but the simple truth is he doesnt run that fast in the New 52

Qawsedf234 said:
Since Flash is faster than Superman's top spees, he'd scale above Superman's flightspeed as well. Your scan is saying that while Flash is faster than Superman, he lacks aspects of Superman's kit like flight.

No no lmao Flash says its with an asterisk and while he'd win a foot race he can't fly, which implies that Superman flies faster than Flash runs which makes sense, Flash doesn't have a single MFTL+ running feat, hell his SINGULAR Reaction speed feat isn't as fast as some of Supes flying feats!!

Qawsedf234 said:
The lightspeed thing's main issue is inconsistency on DC's end. Both Post-Crisis ans Post-Rebirth Wally/Barry have similar FTL = Speedforce limitations despite that being contradicted at various points.

Yeah the difference is that both of those continuities have plenty of actual MFTL+ feats or greater from Wally and Barry, whereas New 52 just DOESNT. Listen I LOVE the Flash, since 6 years old and I'm here to tell it as is. New 52 Flash is simply the slowest Flash there is, literally even outside of his solo run I havent seem anything from him in crossovers that makes him crazy fast in the New 52

Qawsedf234 said:
I just don't see how we can downgrade Flash without also downgrading the entirety of the New 52 Superman-class characters.

Got it so you're in favor of Option D, I'm not surprised, I figured the cope train for New 52 Flash would ride because no one wants to go through all that work

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 22:32

Purgy said:
Is there more context for this feat? Because Flash is already visibly evacuating people when he makes the statement, so it can be interpreted as him only needing thirty seconds more to finish evacuating everyone, the page provides no time frame for when he began.

Literally no lmao, its just that in the beginning of the issue and nothing else

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 22:36

AyOgUyS said:
I am also of the opinion that Supes' combat and reactions are in the same general ballpark as his flight speed.

I'd agree, to bad he just isn't moving that fast most of the time.

FroYoSans · Tuesday at 22:38

Genuinely there is nothing to do to debunk this. Towards the end of the New 52, Flash is postered up by Ridler holding Central City hostage with Drones that will shoot everyone if he moves (for reference Central City is much Less dense than Tokyo, only having 3.5 million people) and Flash CONCEDES because he CANT get to everyone before someone would die. New 52 Flash simply doesn't have MFTL+ movement speed

FroYoSans · 2026-06-03T01:28:29+0100

Actually I think this would be a great compromise.

If we really want to reduce the amount of downgrading that would happen, just say that his Travel Speed "Varies, from High Hypersonic to FTL" and just have his Combat/Reaction Speeds be MFTL+

Hellbeast · 2026-06-03T01:31:16+0100

Ozcantabak said:
What Quawsedf said, even if you want to say Superman is faster via flying, he isn't morbillion times faster, if he was he would have never gotten hit by Darkseid's omega beam.

Worth noting Anatomy of a Metahuman confirms Darkseid was moving Nanoseconds faster then Superman so theres more support for Flash > Superman in speed

There’s also a way to help reconcile this flight speed but it’s contentious and based off that supplemental stuff

Qawsedf234 · 2026-06-03T02:06:46+0100

FroYoSans said:
There are too many assumptions, we have no concrete total distance, only a timeframe

FroYoSans said:
Regardless this doesn't change the problem at hand, we have no defined distance

Only assumption is distance. Population and timeframe are accounted for. The general height above sea level is just an example of getting a distance. A calc has to give a reasonable set of assumptions for the math for items not specified by the work, and how far the Flash runs here doesn't require extreme logical leaps.

FroYoSans said:
Which isn't always at peak performance as we already know, unless you're going to argue that literally his entire Rogue's gallery is MFTL+ like this seems obvious no?

Certain Flash enemies would be MFTL+, but others he holds back on (Flash's speed varies depending on speed force draw) or have ways to counter his speed like the Cold Field.

FroYoSans said:
Flash straight up proves this, he has a multitude of nothing but High Hypersonic-Rel+ feats ay max and yet is still MFTL+ regardless. Hell I was willing to give him MFTL+ Reactions and If you want combat but the simple truth is he doesnt run that fast in the New 52

Having feats in the HH to Rel+ range doesn't mean he makes out there. You'd have to establish limitations to his speed rather instead. Like he can do X thing in Y time, even when he has motivation to seriously try.

FroYoSans said:
No no lmao Flash says its with an asterisk and while he'd win a foot race he can't fly, which implies that Superman flies faster than Flash runs which makes sense

He line is: "One of the questions I get most is 'Are you faster than Superman?' The short answer is yes. The accurate answer is more complicated. On foot, running, I am faster. I can do things Superman can't do. Like vibrate the molecules of my body that I can pass through solid objects... and they can pass through me. But Superman can do things I can't do. Like fly".

Flash isn't saying Superman can fly faster, he's saying Superman has a different set of abilities that make arguments regarding speed difficult to answer. In general we have examples of Flash being notably faster than Superman/Supergirl and is shown to match Superman's flightspeed when both are trying their hardest to run from the Omega Beams. The next panel even has Flash mention that he can't fly as a weakness, which is why he couldn't get Superman.

FroYoSans said:
Listen I LOVE the Flash, since 6 years old and I'm here to tell it as is. New 52 Flash is simply the slowest Flash there is, literally even outside of his solo run I havent seem anything from him in crossovers that makes him crazy fast in the New 52

I mean I don't disagree there (though New 52 is still a more consistent character than previous iterations in terms of raw anti-feats to feats. You don't have the whale or falling man KO scenes). Just that on the site Flash does have a MFTL+ Reaction feat and evidence of scaling to characters with MFTL+ speed. You really just can't downgrade only him.

FroYoSans said:
Got it so you're in favor of Option D, I'm not surprised, I figured the cope train for New 52 Flash would ride because no one wants to go through all that work

I meant ultimately the only options that make sense to me are:

You keep the ratings as is because he does have that higher scaling
You downgrade the rest of the Superman-class people to match the Flash
You seperate Flash's combat and travel speeds into different categories

I'd generally go with 1, but 3 isn't a bad compromise I guess (even if weird).

FroYoSans · 2026-06-03T04:19:55+0100

Qawsedf234 said:
Only assumption is distance. Population and timeframe are accounted for. The general height above sea level is just an example of getting a distance. A calc has to give a reasonable set of assumptions for the math for items not specified by the work, and how far the Flash runs here doesn't require extreme logical leaps.

There is no reasonable anything dude, you can't reasonably assume any amount of distance, you could assume a few thousand miles or a few billion miles or any amount of distance. We know he'd have to go through the entire 849 square mile area but that's about it.

Qawsedf234 said:
Certain Flash enemies would be MFTL+, but others he holds back on (Flash's speed varies depending on speed force draw) or have ways to counter his speed like the Cold Field.

Idk why we're talking to me like this as if I'm not aware of this

also which Flash enemies? The entirety of his run is:
Mob Rule, which doesn't contend with him speed wise
Gorilla Grodd who ends up being powered by the Speed Force, though he shows no signs of being MFTL+
The Rogues, of which Captain Cold is the only one with a Cold Field, and Glider who can kind of move as fast as he can, kind of, once again no MFTL+ stuff
Daniel West who ends up becoming the Reverse Flash, he literally almost kills Barry
Eobard and his little Rogues gallery who were explictly made by Thawne to counter him, Eobard slows time and Barry's solution to this is LITERALLY To tell Eobard about TIME DILATION THE THING THAT IS HEAVILY TIED TO APPROACHING THE SPEED OF LIGHT
Future Flash who is just him in the Future
And the ******* Riddler

Qawsedf234 said:
Having feats in the HH to Rel+ range doesn't mean he makes out there. You'd have to establish limitations to his speed rather instead. Like he can do X thing in Y time, even when he has motivation to seriously trtry.

I literally HAVE

I've showed literally showed the Light Speed things, the fact that he lacks ANY actual MFTL+ movement speed feats and yet somehow everyone, despite I know for a FACT I'm the only person here who's read his whole run, disagrees with this despite there being all of ONE feat that wasn't even consciously done by him

Qawsedf234 said:
He line is: "One of the questions I get most is 'Are you faster than Superman?' The short answer is yes. The accurate answer is more complicated. On foot, running, I am faster. I can do things Superman can't do. Like vibrate the molecules of my body that I can pass through solid objects... and they can pass through me. But Superman can do things I can't do. Like fly".

Flash isn't saying Superman can fly faster, he's saying Superman has a different set of abilities that make arguments regarding speed difficult to answer. In general we have examples of Flash being notably faster than Superman/Supergirl and is shown to match Superman's flightspeed when both are trying their hardest to run from the Omega Beams. The next panel even has Flash mention that he can't fly as a weakness, which is why he couldn't get Superman.

I know what his line is I read the thing. That doesn't change the implications, he explictly said he'd win a foot race but Superman can fly. The implications are clear, Superman is faster flying.

Also holy God stop using that feat

Superman is on EARTH a place he doesn't have a single MFTL+ feat on, LITERALLY one of the WORST examples you could pull

Qawsedf234 said:
I mean I don't disagree there (though New 52 is still a more consistent character than previous iterations in terms of raw anti-feats to feats. You don't have the whale or falling man KO scenes). Just that on the site Flash does have a MFTL+ Reaction feat and evidence of scaling to characters with MFTL+ speed. You really just can't downgrade only him.

Its more consistent in that he's slower, it's less inconsistent because the writers stuck to a more grounded narrative where Flash doesn't randomly move a bazillion times faster than light, minus that ONE statement

name me literally any other feat that isn't just chain scaling that proves he's MFTL+, do it go ahead I'll wait. Except it doesn't just say reaction/combat its all speed. I already said I'm willing to compromise at just adjusting his movement speed even if we want to ignore his solo run for everything else.

Qawsedf234 said:
I meant ultimately the only options that make sense to me are:

You keep the ratings as is because he does have that higher scaling

You downgrade the rest of the Superman-class people to match the Flash

You seperate Flash's combat and travel speeds into different categories

I'd generally go with 1, but 3 isn't a bad compromise I guess (even if weird).

1 doesn't make any sense because as I've shown he literally doesn't have the feats for the rating, literally your evidence is chain scaling over what actually happens in his story. You don't have to downgrade them, they have actual feats of flying MFTL+. Also I already mentioned that compromise

Qawsedf234 · 2026-06-03T12:58:55+0100

FroYoSans said:
There is no reasonable anything dude, you can't reasonably assume any amount of distance,

I mean, you can. I can a reasonable end: "Flash takes people above the flood zone that was encompass the Tokoyo region". That just requires looking at a topography map.

FroYoSans said:
Idk why we're talking to me like this as if I'm not aware of this also which Flash enemies? The entirety of his run is:

I'm not. I'm explaining my viewpoint on how he deals with his Rogue's gallery.

To be honest I sorta lost motivation in responding because I think we're ultimately not going to reach a productive endpoint regarding this, most of your comments are just a dismissive stance with a laughing emoji before going into an actual rebuttal. Which is fine, but I won't drag this out since it'll just waste our time here.

My vote is one of the following

Option D as my primary choice -> Flash has plenty of reason to scale to Superman or Superman-class people with accepted MFTL+ showings
If split, I'm also fine with Option A as a compromise. Since his general speed lacks the same supporting evidence/high ends that other Flash iterations have for a MFTL+ rating

Let me know if anything comes up or a consensus is reached.

Ozcantabak · 2026-06-03T13:06:18+0100

Superman's speed values; flight speed on space, c/r speed, flight speed on earth, running speed scales to each other, this was accepted in Lloydblitzed thread. So i think option D is the best too.

FroYoSans · 2026-06-03T21:28:08+0100

Ozcantabak said:
Superman's speed values; flight speed on space, c/r speed, flight speed on earth, running speed scales to each other, this was accepted in Lloydblitzed thread. So i think option D is the best too.

His running speed definitely isnt the same as his flying speed and his flight speed on Earth DEFINITELY isn't the same as in space

FroYoSans · 2026-06-03T21:41:11+0100

Qawsedf234 said:
I mean, you can. I can a reasonable end: "Flash takes people above the flood zone that was encompass the Tokoyo region". That just requires looking at a topography map.

Neat, I'm not calcing that but you can if you want, and I have no reason to believe it'd still be MFTL+, even if it was that's 1 more feat against his entire narrative solo run of barely moving FTL

Hellbeast said:
Worth noting Anatomy of a Metahuman confirms Darkseid was moving Nanoseconds faster then Superman so theres more support for Flash > Superman in speed

On Earth once again, they were literally moving through city blocks there's nothing MFTL+ about that feat.

Qawsedf234 said:
endpoint regarding this, most of your comments are just a dismissive stance with a laughing emoji before going into an actual rebuttal. Which is fine, but I won't drag this out since it'll just waste our time here.

My vote is one of the following

Option D as my primary choice -> Flash has plenty of reason to scale to Superman or Superman-class people with accepted MFTL+ showings

If split, I'm also fine with Option A as a compromise. Since his general speed lacks the same supporting evidence/high ends that other Flash iterations have for a MFTL+ rating

Let me know if anything comes up or a consensus is reached.

Just close the ******* thread. No one is actually ready to acknowledge that just MAYBE a Flash variant can't run at MFTL+ speeds despite I promise you most everyone replying to this not reading his run.

ByArrow · 2026-06-03T22:09:38+0100

As far as I understand, Flash has only one MFTL feat, while all of his other feats are FTL or slower. Even though he has only one MFTL feat, he is shown or stated to be faster than many characters who have multiple MFTL feats. However, those characters’ MFTL ratings come from feats they perform in space, whereas the events that Flash scales to take place on Earth. Moreover, those characters do not move at those speeds while on Earth. Therefore, Flash is actually scaling to instances where these MFTL characters are not using their maximum speed. Did I understand that correctly?

Is it mentioned in Canon that these characters don’t use their full speed in earth and hold themselves back, or does it just seem that way?

Qawsedf234 · 2026-06-04T00:40:55+0100

FroYoSans said:
Neat, I'm not calcing that but you can if you want, and I have no reason to believe it'd still be MFTL+, even if it was that's 1 more feat against his entire narrative solo run of barely moving FTL

So, finding a topographic map, most of Tokyo is pretty close to sea level, but is surrounded by mountains/hills past city limits. You can see it better with this one.

Just doing a high end estimation:

Comic came out in 2013, so Tokyo has a population of 13.3 Million People
The topographic map shows that the flood zones are basically anything under 10 meters, with 50 probably being a reliable safe zone
The greatest distance Flash would need to travel is 20 kilometers across to the nearest safe zone
13,301,154 / 2 * 20 / 30 = 4,433,718 kilometers travelled in one second
4,433,718 / 299,792.458 = 14.78929133x Lightspeed

So yeah, a high-end estimate is FTL+, but not MFTL+.

FroYoSans said:
Just close the ******* thread. No one is actually ready to acknowledge that just MAYBE a Flash variant can't run at MFTL+ speeds despite I promise you most everyone replying to this not reading his run.

I'll still leave it open. Other mods can still agree with your main stance after all. The thread hasn't been rejected.

Lloydblitzed · 2026-06-04T00:52:00+0100

I disagree with this CRT mainly for the same reasoning as Qawsef. Barry is narratively superior to the entire New 52 League in speed

This include Superman and Hal Jordan with consistant scaling to direct MFTL+ feats (like this or this or the many feats performed by other Lanterns/Kryptonian relative to them like this and this). Not to count he doesn't even go full speed normaly and he can already hit those lvls

Lloydblitzed · 2026-06-04T00:54:28+0100

FroYoSans said:
His running speed definitely isnt the same as his flying speed and his flight speed on Earth DEFINITELY isn't the same as in space

His flight speed is still relative to his combat speed. Hell, he legit performed an MFTL+ feats by trading blows while travelling to Pluto. The near entirety of your argument attempts to use his travel speed to debunk MFTL+ combat speed while there's no reasoning as to why his reactions don't scale to his combat speed nor any consistancy in him being FTL in speed

Lloydblitzed · 2026-06-04T01:12:33+0100

ByArrow said:
As far as I understand, Flash has only one MFTL feat, while all of his other feats are FTL or slower. Even though he has only one MFTL feat, he is shown or stated to be faster than many characters who have multiple MFTL feats. However, those characters’ MFTL ratings come from feats they perform in space, whereas the events that Flash scales to take place on Earth. Moreover, those characters do not move at those speeds while on Earth. Therefore, Flash is actually scaling to instances where these MFTL characters are not using their maximum speed. Did I understand that correctly?

Is it mentioned in Canon that these characters don’t use their full speed in earth and hold themselves back, or does it just seem that way?

Nearly every MFTL+ feats they performed are done at their casual speed, and Flash himself holds back his speed a lot

Tomfer · 2026-06-04T01:16:19+0100

Can we get some direct feats here that show Flash > Everyone else? Obviously I'm not doubting, it's just to set a foot down for good.

Lloydblitzed · 2026-06-04T02:13:12+0100

Tomfer said:
Can we get some direct feats here that show Flash > Everyone else? Obviously I'm not doubting, it's just to set a foot down for good.

Sure:

Barry is consistanly shown superior to his JL squad and other related chars:

Shown with Superman
Shown with Supergirl WHILE he was holding back btw
Stated with him blatantly admitting he can blitz Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan and Cyborg
Easily evading attacks from Power Ring amped Jessica Cruz
Blitzing Warsuit Luthor in combat
Blitzing Wonder Woman again in combat

There's prob more but yeah

Tomfer · 2026-06-04T03:56:21+0100

Lloydblitzed said:
Sure:

Barry is consistanly shown superior to his JL squad and other related chars:

Shown with Superman

Shown with Supergirl WHILE he was holding back btw

Stated with him blatantly admitting he can blitz Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan and Cyborg

Easily evading attacks from Power Ring amped Jessica Cruz

Blitzing Warsuit Luthor in combat

Blitzing Wonder Woman again in combat

There's prob more but yeah

While the OP has raised some fair points, the arguments fall flat when we consider that Flash is part of a major universe that has a scaling chain that he is part of. The feats presented here as clear enough that Flash is just as fast, and even faster, than other MFTL+ characters. So I disagree with downgrading him.

I do think he should also have varies on speed, but that's my opinion.

FroYoSans · 2026-06-04T04:46:54+0100

Lloydblitzed said:
His flight speed is still relative to his combat speed. Hell, he legit performed an MFTL+ feats by trading blows while travelling to Pluto. The near entirety of your argument attempts to use his travel speed to debunk MFTL+ combat speed while there's no reasoning as to why his reactions don't scale to his combat speed nor any consistancy in him being FTL in speed

You're ignoring the entirety of this ******* thread then if you haven't noticed the ******* compromise that says "I'm even willing to give him MFTL+ Combat and Reaction speeds but not travel speeds"

FroYoSans · 2026-06-04T04:57:48+0100

Lloydblitzed said:
I disagree with this CRT mainly for the same reasoning as Qawsef. Barry is narratively superior to the entire New 52 League in speed

And yet in his own ******* run he doesn't have a SINGLE speed feat better than Superman in space. Hell his ONE MFTL+ reaction feat in his own series isnt even close to as fast as some of Clark's Travel speed feats in the New 52...once again done IN SPACE

Lloydblitzed said:
This include Superman and Hal Jordan with consistant scaling to direct MFTL+ feats (like this or this or the many feats performed by other Lanterns/Kryptonian relative to them like this and this). Not to count he doesn't even go full speed normaly and he can already hit those lvls

I've given multiple examples of where he was trying and he still couldn't move that fast. Once again the main crux of the argument is his movement speed. Combat or Reactions I frankly don't care at this point, he is apart of some whack scaling chain that, if we're being honest, the authors never intended to be this insane, so frankly there aren't enough anti feats to disprove it.

Lloydblitzed said:
Nearly every MFTL+ feats they performed are done at their casual speed, and Flash himself holds back his speed a lot

you mean to tell ME that The Flash ISNT always at top speed?!?!?! I'm truly astounded by this!! I could've sworn in literally every single time he's ever running ever that he was always running at those speeds

also that being their casual speed is straight up bogus, sometimes sure but they're not casually moving Quadrillions of times FTL. Regardless there are examples of Barry actually trying and still getting folded or not moving that fast. His solo run simply doesn't support running at MFTL+ speeds

Lloydblitzed said:
Barry is consistanly shown superior to his JL squad and other related chars:

Shown with Superman

Shown with Supergirl WHILE he was holding back btw

Stated with him blatantly admitting he can blitz Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan and Cyborg

Easily evading attacks from Power Ring amped Jessica Cruz

Blitzing Warsuit Luthor in combat

Blitzing Wonder Woman again in combat

Superman was casual here, bad example.
I'll give you Supergirl since she was trying to kill him
This same dude also let his head get frozen and is also only shown blitzing Batman (This also is an antifeat for the League itself if they can only react at 120 miles a second)
"Power Ring Amped" brodie that's just her using the ring, regardless I'll give it to you.
Fair on Luthor
Eh I wouldn't call that blitzing more like taking her by surprise. Also once again the dude who supposedly reacts "the femtosecond there's a change in air pressure" gets done in by a cold gun

FroYoSans · 2026-06-04T04:58:59+0100

Tomfer said:
While the OP has raised some fair points, the arguments fall flat when we consider that Flash is part of a major universe that has a scaling chain that he is part of. The feats presented here as clear enough that Flash is just as fast, and even faster, than other MFTL+ characters. So I disagree with downgrading him.

We're once again ignoring the thread. I don't care about his combat and reaction speeds, however his travel speeds should be split. He has no actual evidence of moving at MFTL+ speeds

Tomfer said:
I do think he should also have varies on speed, but that's my opinion.

This should be the least of what's done

FroYoSans · 2026-06-04T05:04:34+0100

Qawsedf234 said:
So yeah, a high-end estimate is FTL+, but not MFTL+.

My point once again exactly, and even then it's a major outlier for him movement speed wise.

Qawsedf234 said:
I'll still leave it open. Other mods can still agree with your main stance after all. The thread hasn't been rejected.

Fair enough but i don't see the point. Clearly no one agrees

FroYoSans · 2026-06-04T05:09:17+0100

FroYoSans said:
This same dude also let his head get frozen and is also only shown blitzing Batman (This also is an antifeat for the League itself if they can only react at 120 miles a second)

May I also add on that this once again does nothing to prove MFTL+ movement speed, 120 miles a second isn't even close to LS much less MFTL+

Tomfer · 2026-06-04T05:37:58+0100

FroYoSans said:
Just close the ******* thread. No one is actually ready to acknowledge that just MAYBE a Flash variant can't run at MFTL+ speeds despite I promise you most everyone replying to this not reading his run.

FroYoSans said:
you mean to tell ME that The Flash ISNT always at top speed?!?!?! I'm truly astounded by this!! I could've sworn in literally every single time he's ever running ever that he was always running at those speeds also that being their casual speed is straight up bogus, sometimes sure but they're not casually moving Quadrillions of times FTL. Regardless there are examples of Barry actually trying and still getting folded or not moving that fast. His solo run simply doesn't support running at MFTL+ speeds

I'm going to be honest, you gotta relax on how you're approaching this thread. It's very easy to miss information here because of the way you express yourself and how you're talking to others. I rolled my eyes while trying to read what you got to say and it makes people not want to interact with the thread, or you in general. Take a breath or two first.

Lloydblitzed · 2026-06-04T05:43:25+0100

FroYoSans said:
And yet in his own ******* run he doesn't have a SINGLE speed feat better than Superman in space. Hell his ONE MFTL+ reaction feat in his own series isnt even close to as fast as some of Clark's Travel speed feats in the New 52...once again done IN SPACE

Because he does it in space doesn't mean or address anything? Clark's combat is consistanly shown to scale to the speed he flies at. It narratively makes no sense for someone like Reign to be blitz lvl above Barry Allen in the New 52

FroYoSans said:
I've given multiple examples of where he was trying and he still couldn't move that fast.

Most of these aren't even at top speed or were already addressed by Qawsef. Some of them (like dodging lighting stuff) isn't even an anti feat

FroYoSans said:
Once again the main crux of the argument is his movement speed. Combat or Reactions I frankly don't care at this point, he is apart of some whack scaling chain that, if we're being honest, the authors never intended to be this insane, so frankly there aren't enough anti feats to disprove it.

What's the point of the CRT then? The Speed displayed on the wiki refer to his combat speed, not necesserally travel speed, yet you want to change it to MFTL+ Reaction Speed then you say you don't care about the combat speed scaling

The writers of DC clearly intended for Speedsters to be massively above the general mid tiers of the verse, the One Minute war is a peak example of this

FroYoSans said:
you mean to tell ME that The Flash ISNT always at top speed?!?!?! I'm truly astounded by this!! I could've sworn in literally every single time he's ever running ever that he was always running at those speeds also that being their casual speed is straight up bogus, sometimes sure but they're not casually moving Quadrillions of times FTL.

Even by ignoring Supes, the Lanterns has been pulling MFTL+ feats while casual. Yes, they do hit those speed rating while going at "normal speeds"

FroYoSans said:
Regardless there are examples of Barry actually trying and still getting folded or not moving that fast. His solo run simply doesn't support running at MFTL+ speeds

Yet he has consistant scaling to MFTL+ Combat/Reaction speeds, and he has more than just 1 MFTL+ direct feat in his solo run btw, like with viewing the 100 Petaflops Supercomputer as slow

FroYoSans said:
Superman was casual here, bad example.

A casual Superman still performs MFTL+ feats and scale to other Lanterns pulling the same feats

FroYoSans said:
This same dude also let his head get frozen and is also only shown blitzing Batman (This also is an antifeat for the League itself if they can only react at 120 miles a second)

The ice feat is litterally an offguard if anything. His attention was clearly focused on Batman as normally he would be able to blitz the gun and Batman

FroYoSans said:
Eh I wouldn't call that blitzing more like taking her by surprise.

She was not caught by suprise and she attacked him beforehand

FroYoSans said:
Also once again the dude who supposedly reacts "the femtosecond there's a change in air pressure" gets done in by a cold gun

Off guard of doom

Lloydblitzed · 2026-06-04T05:47:54+0100

FroYoSans said:
We're once again ignoring the thread. I don't care about his combat and reaction speeds, however his travel speeds should be split. He has no actual evidence of moving at MFTL+ speeds

So this entire thread is unecessary as this is our editing guidelines:

Speed is simply how fast a character can move in a given amount of time. There are five types of speed used for VS purposes: Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed. The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed.

The Long awaited Speed downgrade of New 52 Flash

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