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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

Antvasima said:
The One Below All empowered and twisted him into becoming a demonic entity.
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Only in a distant future that may be avoided
Antvasima said:
Of course, technically speaking, by extension, so is She-Hulk, which I am not at all happy with, given that she is likely Marvel Comics' currently genuinely nicest character along with Meggan Puceanu, so it doesn't work at all for her.
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She just isn't, even if her power comes from there, she can be what she wants, having powers coming from a source of evil and using them for good is better narratively
Antvasima said:
Somebody should let her become empowered by The One Above All instead or somesuch. 🙏
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we already have Joe Fixit and the FF being empowered by him. Also TOAA and TOBA are the same
 
MrKerf said:
Because we currently assume that there is only One true The One Above All. However, every cosmic being has their avatars, and I presume TOAA is no exception. That's actually the reason why I started looking into Starlin. If we assume that AAO is an avatar - it all works perfectly. And avatars thing isn't my delusion - Storm's run (bleh) was stated by WoG to be Universal in scope. I know Entity disagrees, but the whole Mother of Horrors ordeal also suggests a Universal Manifestation. Even that damn parrot has every reason to be just the avatar, cause in what world the destruction of the universe teleports you to the House of Ideas?

Point is - you're wrong. Hell, with Mother of Horrors harming TOAA, Above All Others being 2-A would fit right in XD
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TOBA being universal still remains inconsistent with the cosmology
 
Anyway, did anybody read Fantastic Four #11 this week? I liked its hopeful and constructive thematics. 🙏🙂❤️
 
Entity said:
Only in a distant future that may be avoided
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That is not the impression that I have.
Entity said:
She just isn't, even if her power comes from there, she can be what she wants, having powers coming from a source of evil and using them for good is better narratively
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A philanthropic saint empowered by satan and getting more powerful from extremely negative emotions and unholy energy doesn't work for me. Given She-Hulk's personality, I think that she would work much better conceptually if she is empowered by positive emotions and holy power instead.
Entity said:
we already have Joe Fixit and the FF being empowered by him.
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Please explain. I thought that they are empowered by cosmic radiation. Also, She-Hulk is most closely thematically linked to the Fantastic Four.
Entity said:
Also TOAA and TOBA are the same
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No, they are opposing different aspects of a transcendent entity. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I think that She-Hulk would work much better conceptually if she is empowered by positive emotions and holy power instead.
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Nah
Antvasima said:
Please explain. I thought that th
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Those cosmic rays are the polar opposite of gamma and come from TOAA
Antvasima said:
, She-Hulk is most closely thematically linked to the Fantastic Four.
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she is the middle ground between Hulk and them
Antvasima said:
No, they are opposing different aspects of a transcendent entity. 🙏
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TOBA is TOAA's Hulk
 
Entity said:
Nah
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Agree to disagree then.
Entity said:
Those cosmic rays are the polar opposite of gamma and come from TOAA
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Where was that revealed?
Entity said:
she is the middle ground between Hulk and them
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She cares about her completely dysfunctional cousin, but her personality and thematics are nearly the complete opposite of his.
Entity said:
TOBA is TOAA's Hulk
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Yes, but they are independently and simultaneously functioning personalities. 🙏
 
Personally, I'm not a fan of splits being done for anything other than explicitly canonical reasons. Imo, if storylines are referenced in canon comics and guidebooks, they are canon enough to be indexed. Like tbh I think Thanos deserves a HOTU and Astral Regulator key. Also, TOAA hasn't been truly omnipotent for a while now, so I don't think it's necessarily a contradiction for Thanos to usurp him with Astral Regulator.
 
ObberGobb said:
Personally, I'm not a fan of splits being done for anything other than explicitly canonical reasons. Imo, if storylines are referenced in canon comics and guidebooks, they are canon enough to be indexed. Like tbh I think Thanos deserves a HOTU and Astral Regulator key. Also, TOAA hasn't been truly omnipotent for a while now, so I don't think it's necessarily a contradiction for Thanos to usurp him with Astral Regulator.
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He technically deserves neither since those doesn't meet our number of appearances for keys criteria I think. (Although we do give keys for relevancy 🤔)
 
The awful later Starlin stories have not been referenced by other authors that I know of, so I don't think that they are important. 🙏
 
ObberGobb said:
I am doing a Thanos read-through with the intent of revamping his page. Would I be allowed to include stuff from the questionably canon stories?
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I mean, you could just include what you think is interesting to be added and mention it in the CRT. People will look at it and either accept or not, this isn't the type of thing you can be sure about without trying (I'm not a Marvel revision guy, so I have no place in making these decisions).

MrKerf said:
The problem I have with this line of thinking is that same editors approve said references, and any direct answers regarding non-canonicity have no sense at all. Brevoort himself states that all Marvel's OGNs are canon, one of which is specifically Infinity Revelation (which also references Marvel The End, which Brevoort claims is non-canon just because of "The End" in the title).

Also, we have a tremendous number of continuity issues (like Knull being attacked by regular Sentry and not his Merged self), which in comparison make Starlin's mistakes look insignificant.
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It's sadly just the way things are. As stories, there are many reasons why something gets approved or not, which might or might not reflect future acknowledgments. For example, in IDW Sonic, writer Ian Flynn was testing the water with incorporating some underused concepts since SEGA was looking more into those stories and technically if they approve something, this mean it's safe to work with... or so he thought because there were times when SEGA would just either change their minds with things he could use or directly state "this was a mistake, don't try getting these into stories again".

Of course, we can debate regarding how and why this happens, but it's just true that it happens. Maybe the editor just didn't know if any of these things had problems, or maybe they just thought "Eh, why should I care to veto him with these subjects if no one will actually care about these anyway? Less troublesome discussions for me for no change", etc.

A bit of this also goes with what one might consider as a bigger problem. For some, character inconsistencies aren't that big of a deal and it's always possible to figure out a way of solving these types of inconsistencies, while others will find that cosmological inconsistencies are a bigger deal due to their scope, and the opposite is also true (After all, it's always possible to create a bigger cosmology that can incorporate instances of contradictory portrayals).

If I had to make a suggestion for here, it would be to be very clear about what is accepted and what is the current methodology used for the decision, making clear the nuanced nature of the method and other elements (Like making clear it has nothing to do with establishing a single true canonicity or denying other methods of being valid on their own merits).
 
ObberGobb said:
Why do you hate Starlin's later stories?
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I dislike his stories in general, given that they focus so much on idealising absolute egotism, power-madness, supremacism, darkness, negativity, moral nihilism, and genocidal ruthlessness. In addition they are mind-numbingly hollow, boring, smug, and repetitive, and lack any true sympathetic warmth, hope, joy, and humanity to them. 🙏
 
Executor_N0 said:
I mean, you could just include what you think is interesting to be added and mention it in the CRT. People will look at it and either accept or not, this isn't the type of thing you can be sure about without trying (I'm not a Marvel revision guy, so I have no place in making these decisions).


It's sadly just the way things are. As stories, there are many reasons why something gets approved or not, which might or might not reflect future acknowledgments. For example, in IDW Sonic, writer Ian Flynn was testing the water with incorporating some underused concepts since SEGA was looking more into those stories and technically if they approve something, this mean it's safe to work with... or so he thought because there were times when SEGA would just either change their minds with things he could use or directly state "this was a mistake, don't try getting these into stories again".

Of course, we can debate regarding how and why this happens, but it's just true that it happens. Maybe the editor just didn't know if any of these things had problems, or maybe they just thought "Eh, why should I care to veto him with these subjects if no one will actually care about these anyway? Less troublesome discussions for me for no change", etc.

A bit of this also goes with what one might consider as a bigger problem. For some, character inconsistencies aren't that big of a deal and it's always possible to figure out a way of solving these types of inconsistencies, while others will find that cosmological inconsistencies are a bigger deal due to their scope, and the opposite is also true (After all, it's always possible to create a bigger cosmology that can incorporate instances of contradictory portrayals).

If I had to make a suggestion for here, it would be to be very clear about what is accepted and what is the current methodology used for the decision, making clear the nuanced nature of the method and other elements (Like making clear it has nothing to do with establishing a single true canonicity or denying other methods of being valid on their own merits).
Click to expand...
Ok. I'll add stuff but maybe include a note on things from the maybe not canon stories.
 
Thoughts on this proposal?:

Characters like Skyfathers, Hell Lords, Dormammu, Doctor Strange*, Scarlet Witch*, Storm, etc., who do not show qualitative superiority will be Low 1-A. 1-A will be reserved only for Abstracts. As Abstract M-Bodies are already accepted to vary, they will become "Varies from Low 1-A to 1-A." Nightmare's power explicitly varies based on fear energy, so he will get that tier as well. Whether feats against them are one or the other will be a case-by-case basis, generally leaning towards Low 1-A unless a character themselves demonstrates 1-A existence. For example, Doctor Strange and Scarlet Witch have fought beings comparable to Eternity, but in my opinion don't demonstrate the qualitative superiority over Low 1-As necessary to be 1-A. Someone like IG Thanos, however, is explicitly several levels of existence higher than all Abstracts combined, making it make much more sense for him to be 1-A.

*IIRC, Living Darkhold Scarlet Witch is Elder God Tier and much stronger than she was before. She should probably have a different key then, right? So I'm thinking like "Base | Living Darkhold, Low 1-A | 1-A"

*Doctor Strange would be something like "Low 1-A with magic, up to 1-A with special artifacts and spells"
 
ObberGobb said:
Thoughts on this proposal?:

Characters like Skyfathers, Hell Lords, Dormammu, Doctor Strange*, Scarlet Witch*, Storm, etc., who do not show qualitative superiority will be Low 1-A. 1-A will be reserved only for Abstracts. As Abstract M-Bodies are already accepted to vary, they will become "Varies from Low 1-A to 1-A." Nightmare's power explicitly varies based on fear energy, so he will get that tier as well. Whether feats against them are one or the other will be a case-by-case basis, generally leaning towards Low 1-A unless a character themselves demonstrates 1-A existence. For example, Doctor Strange and Scarlet Witch have fought beings comparable to Eternity, but in my opinion don't demonstrate the qualitative superiority over Low 1-As necessary to be 1-A. Someone like IG Thanos, however, is explicitly several levels of existence higher than all Abstracts combined, making it make much more sense for him to be 1-A.

*IIRC, Living Darkhold Scarlet Witch is Elder God Tier and much stronger than she was before. She should probably have a different key then, right? So I'm thinking like "Base | Living Darkhold, Low 1-A | 1-A"

*Doctor Strange would be something like "Low 1-A with magic, up to 1-A with special artifacts and spells"
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are there layers in low 1-A?
 
The Amazing Spider-Man (2025) #29 😳
image.png
 
Last edited:
ObberGobb said:
Thoughts on this proposal?:

Characters like Skyfathers, Hell Lords, Dormammu, Doctor Strange*, Scarlet Witch*, Storm, etc., who do not show qualitative superiority will be Low 1-A.
Click to expand...
Why? Doctor Strange is 1-A via magic and varies also, Wanda is a nexus with 1-A feats, idk much about Storm, Sky Fathers, Hellord or Dormammu. A person can be 1-A if they are empowered by a 1-A source, not just only by qualitative superiority.

According to the Tiering System FAQ
That said, while they cannot be at this level by having their own physical power increased, they might be endowed with, or awaken, metaphysical attributes that allow them to imitate and influence things on a 1-A and higher scale. For example, consider the following scenario: A cosmology that includes both a physical level and an "informational" level that both transcends the physical and holds the "coding" of all the things in it. An entity capable of influencing the informational level then "locks" a certain person's code, and makes them unable to be interfered with even by other beings on a similar level to itself. This alteration to the metaphysical make-up of the person then emanates downwards into their physical body, and likewise makes them unable to be harmed by anything in the physical world.
Click to expand...

ObberGobb said:
*Doctor Strange would be something like "Low 1-A with magic, up to 1-A with special artifacts and spells"
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I don't see much difference with what is on his profile other than Low 1-A with magic, 1-A with special artifacts and spells
 
When checking the Maker's profile, I feel that he should be 1-A for his technology can merge all the universes of the Marvel multiverse as it was said here. But there was no scan for this, so I and others can rework on his profile if anyone wants. Another thing about is profile is his intelligence, and it just doesn't make sense. You see, the Supergenius rating would only work if their technological powers or things can manipulate dimensional concepts, reality warping, or create an infinite universe.
In order to qualify for a Supergenius rating based on technological prowess, a character should be able to essentially warp reality in virtually any way that they wish on an at least base level infinite (High 3-A) scale with their inventions, or even use them to overpower tier 1 entities for higher cases. Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well. Meaning that there should be an enormous amount of versatility combined with an infinite scale of power and preferably range.
Click to expand...
Source: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence

If he really was a Supergenius, then his tier rating wouldn't be rated far higher, but something like Tier 1. But his technology section on the attack potency never said anything about him merging the universes or creating his own reality despite the intelligence saying it.
 
If being empowered by a 1-A source can make you 1-A without needing R>F, then I could totally see the Skyfathers at their peak being 1-A still. The Allpower, in the case of Odin, is explicitly knowledge and magic from Yggdrasil, which even a portion of contained more magic than Strange had ever felt. Heck, Amora damaging Yggdrasil was about to destroy every reality, and in that same issue it was stated that her freeing Skurge from Yggdrasil would be freeing him from Eternity.
 
1-A usually problematic to apply for technology, due to 1-A being the first qualitative layer. And technology is mankind's invention, so it can never ever achieve 1-A, unless it comes from 1-A source (like Pym-particles can be 1-A because they are powered by Kirbons from White Hot Room, tech made out of Celestial corpses can be 1-A, etc, etc)

I wanted to address it for the longest of times. We should officially allow technology of Marvel to reach 1-A as is. At least for 8th Cosmos. 8th Cosmos added 2 new Abstracts. Powers-That-Be and The-Natural-Order-of-Things. I won't delve deep into it, but we treat our Abstracts as Type 1 abstraction, and 1-A. Naturally it would apply to The -Natural-Order-of-Things as well, who embodies everything scientific. As such, Technology, just like Magic, comes from 1-A source.
 
Re5yh said:
When checking the Maker's profile, I feel that he should be 1-A for his technology can merge all the universes of the Marvel multiverse as it was said here. But there was no scan for this, so I and others can rework on his profile if anyone wants. Another thing about is profile is his intelligence, and it just doesn't make sense. You see, the Supergenius rating would only work if their technological powers or things can manipulate dimensional concepts, reality warping, or create an infinite universe.

Source: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence

If he really was a Supergenius, then his tier rating wouldn't be rated far higher, but something like Tier 1. But his technology section on the attack potency never said anything about him merging the universes or creating his own reality despite the intelligence saying it.
Click to expand...
bump
 
MrKerf said:
1-A usually problematic to apply for technology, due to 1-A being the first qualitative layer. And technology is mankind's invention, so it can never ever achieve 1-A, unless it comes from 1-A source (like Pym-particles can be 1-A because they are powered by Kirbons from White Hot Room, tech made out of Celestial corpses can be 1-A, etc, etc)

I wanted to address it for the longest of times. We should officially allow technology of Marvel to reach 1-A as is. At least for 8th Cosmos. 8th Cosmos added 2 new Abstracts. Powers-That-Be and The-Natural-Order-of-Things. I won't delve deep into it, but we treat our Abstracts as Type 1 abstraction, and 1-A. Naturally it would apply to The -Natural-Order-of-Things as well, who embodies everything scientific. As such, Technology, just like Magic, comes from 1-A source.
Click to expand...
and science also is a creation of the 6th Cosmos, like magic being a creation of 5th, I think they're kind of made to be on equal footing with each other
 
While on the topic of 1-A, I think the Infinity Gauntlet should be upgraded to be one or even two layers into 1-A. We accept it as being only on the level of Abstract M-Bodies, but I don't think that is narratively consistent at all. The IG is explicitly many levels above the Abstracts, which wouldn't be said it if was just talking about M-Bodies they make for themselves. Eternity says Adam Warlock wouldn't be more powerful than him if he weren't facing just one aspect of his being, but that looks much more like he means his Multiversal form, rather than his Universal true form.

I don't know how layers work really, but it is said that the Abstracts are just threads making up the tapestry of Thanos' being. Is that enough for a layer of superiority over Uni Abstracts?
 
Re5yh said:
When checking the Maker's profile, I feel that he should be 1-A for his technology can merge all the universes of the Marvel multiverse as it was said here. But there was no scan for this, so I and others can rework on his profile if anyone wants. Another thing about is profile is his intelligence, and it just doesn't make sense. You see, the Supergenius rating would only work if their technological powers or things can manipulate dimensional concepts, reality warping, or create an infinite universe.

Source: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence

If he really was a Supergenius, then his tier rating wouldn't be rated far higher, but something like Tier 1. But his technology section on the attack potency never said anything about him merging the universes or creating his own reality despite the intelligence saying it.
Click to expand...
Thoughts?
 
Re5yh said:
When checking the Maker's profile, I feel that he should be 1-A for his technology can merge all the universes of the Marvel multiverse as it was said here. But there was no scan for this, so I and others can rework on his profile if anyone wants. Another thing about is profile is his intelligence, and it just doesn't make sense. You see, the Supergenius rating would only work if their technological powers or things can manipulate dimensional concepts, reality warping, or create an infinite universe.

Source: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence

If he really was a Supergenius, then his tier rating wouldn't be rated far higher, but something like Tier 1. But his technology section on the attack potency never said anything about him merging the universes or creating his own reality despite the intelligence saying it.
Click to expand...
Antivasima, what do you think
 
Re5yh said:
When checking the Maker's profile, I feel that he should be 1-A for his technology can merge all the universes of the Marvel multiverse as it was said here. But there was no scan for this, so I and others can rework on his profile if anyone wants. Another thing about is profile is his intelligence, and it just doesn't make sense. You see, the Supergenius rating would only work if their technological powers or things can manipulate dimensional concepts, reality warping, or create an infinite universe.

Source: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence

If he really was a Supergenius, then his tier rating wouldn't be rated far higher, but something like Tier 1. But his technology section on the attack potency never said anything about him merging the universes or creating his own reality despite the intelligence saying it.
Click to expand...
This is blatant enough. You can create a CRT.
 
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