Tomfer
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Separate threads would be preferable, especially nowadays that our threads keep getting side-tracked for little to no reasons. You would also have an easier time, lmao.
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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The_Impress
- Start date
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- Tags
- marvel comics
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Perhaps I will do a High 1-B thread first then. Hopefully that will be simpler, since I am mostly wanting to get better evidence rather than change anything.
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I have a question, why isn't marvel magic High 1-A? It seems to encompass 1-A realms, Non 1-A, and the resides between reality and unreality, and encompasses them, and so much else, that should be enough, no?
Oliver_de_jesus
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I think it just depend on the magic itself, like some types are diluted versions of stronger magic, which is the reason why magic are separe on skills and stuff
Is the same difference some types of radiations has different effect despite being part of same spectrum, if that analogy has sense
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What about magic as a whole?
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Speaking of cosmology, after reading all of Silver Surfer's solo issues (tbf each run is only like 5-20 issues with the exception of the 146-issue 1987 run so it wasn't too hard to do in a few days), I think that the Macroverse from #140-#143 should be considered part of mainstream Marvel despite first appearing in a Demattis issue, as it is referenced not only in Amazing Spider-Man #590-591 (plus multiple other non-Demattis issues), but when Ant-Man grows to Overspace in Mighty Avengers #30, he notes that he is transcending the Macroverse (and implicitly references back to Reed Richards having gone to it in Amazing Spider-Man #590-591 as well) to do so.
Note that this doesn't change anything (especially as the Macroverse is beyond Earth-616), just further supports the multiverse being 1-A+.
Note that this doesn't change anything (especially as the Macroverse is beyond Earth-616), just further supports the multiverse being 1-A+.
None of that is enough for High 1-A, sadly.
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yee I lowkey Just got to kinda give up...I don't remember, but I did add some of the quotes and header images to our Thor page.
It's John Buscema art style tho right? Or am I wrong?
... Wait it might be Ron Frenz 
I remember now... But I can't access
it was on disc server
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I see, sigh
From my knowledge, i thought encompassing 1-A, Non 1-A along with a few layers, while being non dual to both was enough for High 1-A?
Also, another question, from what i know, a 1-A can't really exist within a Non 1-A reality nor interact with Non 1-A beings
So how exactly is Hulk 1-A, and how can he interact with Asgardians or beings alike?
Same with the infinity gauntlet being 1-A instead of the previous Low 1-A, cause can't many Non 1-A characters hold it?
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Please take a look at our DC Comics scaling as well. It has likely also gotten very out of hand.
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FTL Spider-Man believers in shambles. I always knew he could only dodge that stuff because of Spider-Sense.
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Tbh I don't think I'm the best person for the job there. I'm not knowledgeable on DC powerscaling at all, really, much less cosmology scaling. And in general, I'm not the most knowledgeable on Tier 1 (I'm mostly wanting to gather what others have said to facilitate a discussion and conclusion).Please take a look at our DC Comics scaling as well. It has likely also gotten very out of hand.
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There’s at least like three different times he’s been stated to be faster the light though, and his spider sense is kind of trash when it comes to helping him dodge stuff that’s remotely close to as fast as he isFTL Spider-Man believers in shambles. I always knew he could only dodge that stuff because of Spider-Sense.
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He just needs to move before whatever is shooting him, not the light itself.
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His spider sense is pretty bad at warning him before the projectile is fired even if the person firing it is a normal human, that’s not even the only time that’s happened, also aim dodging doesn’t do anything against his FTL statements
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2025/6 issue blatantly referencing one of the main characters from a Demattis-only series, particularly these elements.
Another confirmation of Demattis-Marvel being just another part of mainstream Marvel
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Division between cosmologies isn't about a story not being part of "mainstream canon", it's just about the settings not working 100% well and you would need to distort one portrayal or the other to make them fit.
There's always a degree with it in any marvel story because they are not 100% consistent at all. The problem goes when the inconsistencies go beyond a threshold of acceptance, which is defined by each individual.
I would say that an unrelated comic mentioning another story isn't necessarily enough to make them consistent enough to be worked together, otherwise Starlin's late Thanos stories wouldn't have problems with being "mainstream canon" considering how many of them are connected with something from other comics in someway.
Of course, since the degree of acceptance varies with each individual, the threshold of what is accepted will vary as individuals change, but I think the reason why it was divided had nothing to do with being non-connected with other stories, just about its cosmological structure being too different.
Although, can we even be sure of a consistent marvel hierarchy to begin with? From what I remember the last time Tier 1-A was applied it was done by accepting a meta structure that overwrites any portrayal as an element of the fiction itself. But this isn't done absolutely from the looks of it.
Like, when Grant Morisson established his version of DC Cosmology for Final Crisis and Multiversity, he had set-up similar systems to override contradictions, but I think it isn't applied as such on DC anyway.
Honestly, it really is just about how much one can accept a view and use it to override other portrayals, even in times when such portrayal is completely missing from any active run and doing so only by respect for a past writer's run and maybe hoping someone in the future will bring it back. I gave up on Digimon after the last producer that wanted to push for a consistent view was fired and the new producer immediately introduced some of the biggest retcons cosmology-wise, so I just lost any desire to push for anything with it again.
I wonder how Marvel readers usually deal with it (I know some are pure writer-readers, only going after particular writers and ignoring everyone else, like how Don Rosa was with Carl Barks's Disney comics).
There's always a degree with it in any marvel story because they are not 100% consistent at all. The problem goes when the inconsistencies go beyond a threshold of acceptance, which is defined by each individual.
I would say that an unrelated comic mentioning another story isn't necessarily enough to make them consistent enough to be worked together, otherwise Starlin's late Thanos stories wouldn't have problems with being "mainstream canon" considering how many of them are connected with something from other comics in someway.
Of course, since the degree of acceptance varies with each individual, the threshold of what is accepted will vary as individuals change, but I think the reason why it was divided had nothing to do with being non-connected with other stories, just about its cosmological structure being too different.
Although, can we even be sure of a consistent marvel hierarchy to begin with? From what I remember the last time Tier 1-A was applied it was done by accepting a meta structure that overwrites any portrayal as an element of the fiction itself. But this isn't done absolutely from the looks of it.
Like, when Grant Morisson established his version of DC Cosmology for Final Crisis and Multiversity, he had set-up similar systems to override contradictions, but I think it isn't applied as such on DC anyway.
Honestly, it really is just about how much one can accept a view and use it to override other portrayals, even in times when such portrayal is completely missing from any active run and doing so only by respect for a past writer's run and maybe hoping someone in the future will bring it back. I gave up on Digimon after the last producer that wanted to push for a consistent view was fired and the new producer immediately introduced some of the biggest retcons cosmology-wise, so I just lost any desire to push for anything with it again.
I wonder how Marvel readers usually deal with it (I know some are pure writer-readers, only going after particular writers and ignoring everyone else, like how Don Rosa was with Carl Barks's Disney comics).
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Maybe I shouldn't do this but...
anyone please?
vsbattles.com
anyone please?
Lightmaster's profile overhaul (Marvel comic)
I couldn't think of a themed name. Hello! New CTR, and my 3rd Marvel character overhaul... this one, however, is going to be a bit more complicated, (more info below) Current profile - New profile (Before CTR) - New Profile+ (Based on the CTR) First of all, I'm going to create two categories...
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What do you mean?
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I'm not entirely familiar with what the upcoming 1-A downgrades are going to be focusing on but I'm curious if current scaling of higher realms are being contested too because I know we have Overspace beings like Dominions and WHR Phoenix at high 1-A
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1-A downgrade is primarily focused on earth 616, it doesn’t really affect the higher realms since the multiverse as a whole has it’s own 1-A+ statements and the higher realms get their ratings because of how much they transcend the multiverse
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Understood
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Why aren't those stories canon actually?
MrKerf
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Seconded. I was reading Starlin's Infinity Saga Omnibus (had to look into AAO), and I didn't see anything that falls under non-canon entirely.
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It depends entirely on what you accept as good enough. Because you have clear contradictions to well-established facts meant to be true in all universes (Such as the Beyonders vs The Living Tribunal) that are directly contracted, and also editorial comments that directly state Starlin's later works and solo stories have no place in the main Marvel Comics stories and are better seen as stand-alone.
Of course, you'll find comics that aren't denied from being in the "mainstream continuity" referencing them either directly or indirectly (Like Ewing saying a line from the Living Tribunal in his Ultimates run was meant to tie with Adam Warlock becoming it, only for editorial to say that can't be true and Adam isn't it in canon), this is just how comics works.
Marvel isn't univocal, you have dozens of writers, artists, editors and hundreds of other staff all working in parallel without perfect communication and doing what they like. So you commonly have these inconsistent moments that sometimes are retroactively explained or not, with somethings just being ignored because no one cares, and so on.
This is why I said that the cosmology split had nothing to do with canon, it was just a way of making sure that different views of the cosmology are represented in their own terms as best as some users can accept.
Because the fact of the work is that Marvel is a series full of contradictions that doesn't work with a consistent structure of the world across multiple sectors and for a long time. You can have someone like Al Ewing trying to map out the cosmology trying to pick up lines and concepts for over 50 years ago in the same era that a random writer just googled "what is the multiverse" and wrote a whole story based on a random article about dimensions that make no sense.
Marvel sells itself as a single world (Regardless if they are talking abouta multiverse), but the truth is that cosmological consistent isn't at all a matter they actually push as important enough besides some very broad points from a few runs, but that even then aren't fully respected in general.
But there are somethings even the editorial can't accept, which is how you have people like Tom Brevoort being of the constant opinion that Starlin's late Thanos stories aren't canon.
The question is, where lies the limit of the acceptable in this forum? The problem of a standardized Wiki is trying to figure out an answer to this and please a good enough amount of people with power to set-up the pages. Honestly, not much different from how some other things are set-up in the world.
Logically the actual answer is personal, maybe to you none of those contradictions matter and you can give an answer to how it all fits. At the same time, someone else might think differently due to having a different set of value. Normally it would just mean the two of you can stay away if you don't need to engage with each other, but are forced to met and discuss here for the sake of having an opinion written in a page in a Wiki that depends on convincing other people about your view (And the acceptance can vary even just by the week and those available to see it that time and the mood, it's not absolute fact).
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I am doing a Thanos read-through with the intent of revamping his page. Would I be allowed to include stuff from the questionably canon stories?
MrKerf
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The problem I have with this line of thinking is that same editors approve said references, and any direct answers regarding non-canonicity have no sense at all. Brevoort himself states that all Marvel's OGNs are canon, one of which is specifically Infinity Revelation (which also references Marvel The End, which Brevoort claims is non-canon just because of "The End" in the title).
Also, we have a tremendous number of continuity issues (like Knull being attacked by regular Sentry and not his Merged self), which in comparison make Starlin's mistakes look insignificant.
Excellence616
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Gamma
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No. Sorry.
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The One Below All empowered and twisted him into becoming a demonic entity.
Of course, technically speaking, by extension, so is She-Hulk, which I am not at all happy with, given that she is likely Marvel Comics' currently genuinely nicest character along with Meggan Puceanu, so it doesn't work at all for her.
Somebody should let her become empowered by The One Above All instead or somesuch.
MrKerf
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Somebody should let her become empowered by The One Above All instead or somesuch.
Ant, I would like to remind you, that you are not judge, jury, and executioner three-in-one. If the guy finds anything for Thanos, it will be decided in a resulting CRT on whether it can be used or not.No. Sorry.
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Well, as Executor mentioned above, Starlin's personal cosmology seems to be incompatible with the main canon, so it seems like an extremely bad idea to start incorporating it, much like with the cases of DeMatteis and Ayodele.
MrKerf
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It isn't incompatible though. We all just pick and choose. "Oh yeah, those events happened, but we will squint and not count to the cosmology." Yeah, right.
And don't compare Starlin to Ayodele. Starlin is surprisingly consistent (and returns everything back to status quo three times no less XD), while Ayodele's Storm run placed in Urban Dictionary next to the phrase "What the ****?"
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I don't like the DeMatteis split myself, but no matter the case, we had justifications for both the Starlin split and the DeMatteis split, and they need to be addressed in any attempt to re-composite the cosmology, as was the case for the thread undoing DC's DeMatteis cosmology split.
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No. I am just opinionated.
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Also, in Starlin's final cosmology, "Above All Others" was treated as a 2-A being, and it was possible for Thanos to usurp their powers by using items that AAO themself created. That doesn't seem to fit at all with our current cosmology.
MrKerf
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Because we currently assume that there is only One true The One Above All. However, every cosmic being has their avatars, and I presume TOAA is no exception. That's actually the reason why I started looking into Starlin. If we assume that AAO is an avatar - it all works perfectly. And avatars thing isn't my delusion - Storm's run (bleh) was stated by WoG to be Universal in scope. I know Entity disagrees, but the whole Mother of Horrors ordeal also suggests a Universal Manifestation. Even that damn parrot has every reason to be just the avatar, cause in what world the destruction of the universe teleports you to the House of Ideas?Also, in Starlin's final cosmology, "Above All Others" was treated as a 2-A being, and it was possible for Thanos to usurp their powers by using items that AAO themself created. That doesn't seem to fit at all with our current cosmology.
Point is - you're wrong. Hell, with Mother of Horrors harming TOAA, Above All Others being 2-A would fit right in XD
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Above All Others was directly stated to be The One Above All himself in a guidebook.
Source: The Periodic Table of Marvel
MrKerf
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Since when are we using guidebooks this way? If we use this source, then Starlin is canon (as it directly mentions Astral Regulator and uses image from there). If not, then irrelevant.Above All Others was directly stated to be The One Above All himself in a guidebook.
Source: The Periodic Table of Marvel
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Why we can't just nuke Guffy Dematteis cosmology? His interpretation of worlds within worlds and dreams within dreams are completely wrong, as well as his interpretation of Sama-D, Tenebrae and silver surfer statements.
(Damn why there only 2 people in internet who actually read silver surfer)
(Damn why there only 2 people in internet who actually read silver surfer)
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