DarkLock92
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Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss: BUM ASS GOETIA
- Thread starter DaReaperMan
- Start date
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I disagree with the OP.
The weapons they use aren't "rando", they're weapons from a Goetia's Royal Armoury. The Goetia are many things, having bum "fake" crap is not one of them. Those are very likely some of the most potent and powerful weapons in all of Hell- they adorn a Goetia's Armoury. Trying to act like this isn't when IMP is at their most powerful weapon-wise is kind of... weird.
The point that Loona damaged the Hydra also makes no real sense- she dug into the surface enough to get a grip but that isn't damage. The Hydra got slammed with a rocket to the neck and we see in the close-up of Loona running up it that the rocket didn't actually do damage.
Also-
"Answer: That is both ancient Word of God that is very vague and frankly, can easily be attributed to the little known fact STOLAS CAN LITERALLY TURN PEOPLE TO SOLID STONE WITH A GLARE. That Alastor doesn't resist. And his profile is up to date. Also, "The way their powers work is different so it's hard to say" points to this. This also means the whole "Magic=tier 5" thing doesn't apply to Goetia."
Their powers works differently but the Hierarchy is still definitively a power-based one.
Also you got this wrong
"Question: But then why would Viv say that she doesn't know who wins between Stolas and Alastor but leans Stolas?"
That wasn't the question. Viv was asked who was more powerful. Not a fight- who in brute strength was more powerful. When Viv made her statement, it was in direct relation to power, not who would win. So yes- Stolas Magic > Alastor Magic. Dude you even linked the stream in your OP, how did you get it wrong?
This is furthered by the fact that both Stolas and Baby Octavia was sitting on a huge meteor that was going right into a Supernova-ing star and facetanked a shockwave that ripped the entire thing into pieces. Mind you, illusions are not part of Stolas' power set. 9-B?? That shockwave is absurdly strong to rip a giant piece of rock like that apart and they were sitting on the side exposed to the shockwave.
So I disagree on the basis that the OP fundamentally gets key WoG statements wrong as well as ignores plenty of tertiary evidence that says to the contrary.
The weapons they use aren't "rando", they're weapons from a Goetia's Royal Armoury. The Goetia are many things, having bum "fake" crap is not one of them. Those are very likely some of the most potent and powerful weapons in all of Hell- they adorn a Goetia's Armoury. Trying to act like this isn't when IMP is at their most powerful weapon-wise is kind of... weird.
The point that Loona damaged the Hydra also makes no real sense- she dug into the surface enough to get a grip but that isn't damage. The Hydra got slammed with a rocket to the neck and we see in the close-up of Loona running up it that the rocket didn't actually do damage.
Also-
"Answer: That is both ancient Word of God that is very vague and frankly, can easily be attributed to the little known fact STOLAS CAN LITERALLY TURN PEOPLE TO SOLID STONE WITH A GLARE. That Alastor doesn't resist. And his profile is up to date. Also, "The way their powers work is different so it's hard to say" points to this. This also means the whole "Magic=tier 5" thing doesn't apply to Goetia."
Their powers works differently but the Hierarchy is still definitively a power-based one.
Though this refers to Sinners and Overlords (This is a Hazbin Stream), the Hierarchy in Viv's head is a Power-based one- not political or social or whatever the heck you want to say.
Also you got this wrong
"Question: But then why would Viv say that she doesn't know who wins between Stolas and Alastor but leans Stolas?"
That wasn't the question. Viv was asked who was more powerful. Not a fight- who in brute strength was more powerful. When Viv made her statement, it was in direct relation to power, not who would win. So yes- Stolas Magic > Alastor Magic. Dude you even linked the stream in your OP, how did you get it wrong?
This is furthered by the fact that both Stolas and Baby Octavia was sitting on a huge meteor that was going right into a Supernova-ing star and facetanked a shockwave that ripped the entire thing into pieces. Mind you, illusions are not part of Stolas' power set. 9-B?? That shockwave is absurdly strong to rip a giant piece of rock like that apart and they were sitting on the side exposed to the shockwave.
So I disagree on the basis that the OP fundamentally gets key WoG statements wrong as well as ignores plenty of tertiary evidence that says to the contrary.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,675
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Majority of that is honestly just a retread of what was already said in the thread.
Like, Loona leaving dents and cracks in the Hydra as she runs IS damage. It's minor, but it's still damage.
Brushing that off just because the "Goetia’s Royal Armoury" rocket didn’t do anything doesn’t really make sense. Like, how are you gonna argue that the idea Viv was trying to get across was "I.M.P. only stood a chance cause they were using these specific weapons" when one of those weapons straight up does nothing, but Loona can still visibly damage it just by moving? It legit contradicts the idea you’re trying to push.
And yes, the question asked who was more powerful. But then Viv’s answer immediately brings up how she doesn't know how they would even meet. Which ya know, is very relevant when you're talking about strength in a vacuum.
As for the Hierarchy stuff,
But aside from that, the lower hierarchy does show us that it isn't purely power-based. Hellhounds are supposed to be at the bottom, yet they nearly always act as the bodyguards for supposedly stronger demons like Succubi and even the Ars Goetia. They're also strong enough to overpower Blitz and Millie, latter can take out whole rooms of Shark Hellborns and the former yeeted a Sinner off a building that one time.
And for the higher tiers, we barely have anything to go off. The Sins never fight, we have no info on Lilith and Andrealphus is the only thing we have on Goetia.
But based on what we do have, we've got Alastor as the strongest Sinner (And his deal immediately breaks as soon as a new Strongest Sinner rolls around) and he coexisted with Lilith for decades, whom Vox refers to as a Sinner. Maybe she isn't, maybe Vox is wrong, who knows.
But as it stands, we have an Overlord (Two if you count Rosie) who hold more "power" than the 2nd in the hierarchy, so there's that.
Or maybe Baby Via is stronger than Andrealphus lol
Like, Loona leaving dents and cracks in the Hydra as she runs IS damage. It's minor, but it's still damage.
Brushing that off just because the "Goetia’s Royal Armoury" rocket didn’t do anything doesn’t really make sense. Like, how are you gonna argue that the idea Viv was trying to get across was "I.M.P. only stood a chance cause they were using these specific weapons" when one of those weapons straight up does nothing, but Loona can still visibly damage it just by moving? It legit contradicts the idea you’re trying to push.
And yes, the question asked who was more powerful. But then Viv’s answer immediately brings up how she doesn't know how they would even meet. Which ya know, is very relevant when you're talking about strength in a vacuum.
As for the Hierarchy stuff,
WoG so old that when talking about "demons" she's clearly only referring to Sinners (Hellborn can't make soul deals) so applying it to the whole hierarchy is already shaky.
But aside from that, the lower hierarchy does show us that it isn't purely power-based. Hellhounds are supposed to be at the bottom, yet they nearly always act as the bodyguards for supposedly stronger demons like Succubi and even the Ars Goetia. They're also strong enough to overpower Blitz and Millie, latter can take out whole rooms of Shark Hellborns and the former yeeted a Sinner off a building that one time.
And for the higher tiers, we barely have anything to go off. The Sins never fight, we have no info on Lilith and Andrealphus is the only thing we have on Goetia.
But based on what we do have, we've got Alastor as the strongest Sinner (And his deal immediately breaks as soon as a new Strongest Sinner rolls around) and he coexisted with Lilith for decades, whom Vox refers to as a Sinner. Maybe she isn't, maybe Vox is wrong, who knows.
But as it stands, we have an Overlord (Two if you count Rosie) who hold more "power" than the 2nd in the hierarchy, so there's that.
Apparently it's less than 8-C, which I suppose does follow the portrayal Goetia have, they're not really physical powerhouses, a depowered Stolas, who not even a minute ago was shown to be pretty weak, beat the shit out of Andrealphus sooo
Or maybe Baby Via is stronger than Andrealphus lol
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It isn't. It's not even minor, it's literally entirely cosmetic. This is the equivalent of me saying I can scuff the surface of a tank if you give me a rock.
Loona did postiviely jack and shit to it beyond actual surface-level scuff and cracks, while the rocket was able to full on knock the Hydra back a fair bit from sheer force. Notably, both doesn't actually do shit.
Plus like, the people saying that "Oh Andrealphus holding back doesn't make sense because he was going for the kill and he obviously wouldn't hold back that much" is kind of a shit argument. That's like saying Goku holding back too much so that he could get a bruise from a bullet couldn't happen.
The whole point that a "gaggle of imps and a hellhound" gave him remotely any pause at all is because it's a bad look- the fight was meant to be a low-diff casual affair for a Goetia. If he actually crushed them with full force to the point that they couldn't deal any damage... yea you proved your point but you just went serious against "lower-class" beings.
You're inferring they mean in a fight from... what?
Anyways, that's also not what Viv is saying. You're putting words in her mouth even more. What Viv said there is they aren't in the same direct contact, which goes back to the point that she never really thought about it.
And that's all the relevant things Viv has said on it before Alastor turned it into a Powerscaling dick measuring contest.
There is nothing about "meeting", Viv saying they aren't in direct contact is a direct continuation of why she never thought about it before. And she's thinking about it now, and she chose Stolas.
That was a Hazbin stream and is directly referring to the characters within Hazbin. You saying this still fundamentally dodges the fact that Viv outright says on multiple occasions she considers the Hierarchy a power-based one. And why is Hellborns not being able to make soul deals a refutation of what she said?
Hellborns are fundamentally all under Sinners in the Hierarchy- Sinners overpower 99% of normal Hellborn. So no, this actually fits perfectly within the Hierarchy.
Also the thing you linked isn't even saying what you're saying- why do you intentionally mis-represent evidence like this?
This quote actually says the opposite of what you say- Hellborns CAN do Soul Deals, but not in the same way as Sinners. So yes, it actually still does work- Hellborns have their own type of Soul Deals they can undergo but it isn't the same process as Sinners- but they still do have one.
Why would having a security detail be a sign of weakness for Stronger Demons? This is like saying huge MMA Fighters don't need security details because they're strong. They might even be able to outright lay out their own security force- but that's not what the Security Detail is for.
Why are we acting like power rangers for individuals aren't also a massive factor? Striker outright said himself and Blitz are powerful exceptions to their kind, while Millie herself is such a freak of nature that she was banned from competing with other Wrathian Imps in the Pain Games- both Blitz and Millie are both considered absurd anomalies.
And y'know. Stolas facetanking an explosion that ripped apart a planetoid. Waving his hand and splitting the skies casually in the Harvest Moon Festival before creating a ****-off huge portal.
Which actually is a power showing FAR beyond anything Alastor shows on-screen, which caps at making small nuclear blasts (from blowing up Pentious' blimp) and smashing through buildings.
It is wrong, because Lilith isn't a Sinner (The deceased Mortal kind). Sinners cannot procreate and yet, Charlie's right there. Vox is not an authority on Lilith- all he knows is Lilith is the first mortal to go to Hell.
So it's not a "maybe"- Vox is fundamentally just wrong period. She might be a Sinner in name (As a Mortal who went to Hell) but she is evidently not the same as everyone else.
We don't though? We have Vox who has 0 reputable authority on Lilith beyond common knowledge ("Human who went to Hell") and plenty of evidence Lilith doesn't count as a Sinner (Being able to procreate, something Sinners EXPLICITLY cannot do).
Lilith also has a MASSIVE AoE showing by being able to enchant all of Hell with her music-based magic, which is an AoE range far FAR above pretty much everyone else in the verse thus far.
The 8-C Calc is for the friction, not the explosion or shockwave. None of that post actually brings up the explosive part that occurs.
And even then, the less than 8-C calc assumes Stolas was on the dark side of the moon rather than the facing side which someone brought up but everyone else kind of quietly ignored.
Jesus these things are so outdated, do we have to do a verse-wide redo?
If you want serious then Stolas was able to casually lift a huge ice statue the same size he is the very same episode, which is WAY more heavier than that desk lol.
Idk, immortal or not, if you drop your guard and not amp yourself at all and someone sucker punched your face, I'd get laid on my ass as well.
Like, Stolas lifted a statue as large as himself and slammed it on Andrealphus' head so hard the statue ******* exploded violently into pieces and Andrealphus' head was outright fully intact and seemingly not even harmed from the experience.
Like, gags aside about "haha funny black eye Andrealphus **** him", he genuinely took more damage from Stolas' punches than Stolas slamming an Ice Sculpture into his skull violently enough that it exploded into pieces.
I would laugh if Viv unironically confirmed that to be the case
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This thread is so abandoned by staff we even found a guy who defends Goetias and hierarchy, wth.
Mythic381
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Hello?
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Using your privileges huh, I see
Anonymous_Learner
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If staff appears, i won't add this to the Mega CRT.
If staff doesn't appear, i add this to the Mega CRT.
Win win either way, ig
If staff doesn't appear, i add this to the Mega CRT.
Win win either way, ig
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Damn more than 2 months and I'm still the only guy who's shown up. Crazy.
Also you know it's been long when the OP is still talking about tier 5 like it's still on the profiles
Also you know it's been long when the OP is still talking about tier 5 like it's still on the profiles
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I feel like this thread should be remade entirely given it's outdated since Tier 5 Hazbin hasn't been a thing in ages-
anyways-
I'd like to note that if we're using "Muh, Goetia summon got scuffed by Loona" then Alastor has his own Anti-Feats such as his shields failing against Velvet's Arrows which barely imbeds itself into the ground and Valentino being able to dismiss one of Alastor's tentacles as well as engage in fisticuffs and smack Alastor hard enough that he spews blood.
"Holding back" and "Intending to lose", by the logic proposed by the OP, Alastor shouldn't have had blood drawn period. And Valentino despite being an Overlord, has no actual feats that are head and shoulders above I.M.P- in fact, I.M.P outright has better speed feats by regularly parrying bullets.
By the logic proposed to downgrade the Goetia, Alastor would've just facetanked Valentino's guns since his gun's feats are almost entirely in-line with actual IRL Guns (Which is strange because the guns used by I.M.P have super exaggerated bullet holes and effects, entirely exploding a Box-Style TV in one shot which is wildly above a normal 9mm)
anyways-
I'd like to note that if we're using "Muh, Goetia summon got scuffed by Loona" then Alastor has his own Anti-Feats such as his shields failing against Velvet's Arrows which barely imbeds itself into the ground and Valentino being able to dismiss one of Alastor's tentacles as well as engage in fisticuffs and smack Alastor hard enough that he spews blood.
"Holding back" and "Intending to lose", by the logic proposed by the OP, Alastor shouldn't have had blood drawn period. And Valentino despite being an Overlord, has no actual feats that are head and shoulders above I.M.P- in fact, I.M.P outright has better speed feats by regularly parrying bullets.
Besides being strangely insulting- the Hierarchy itself is so besides the point being made- namely the logic proposed is double-standards to hell. We have a statement that Stolas in raw power scales slightly above Alastor.
By the logic proposed to downgrade the Goetia, Alastor would've just facetanked Valentino's guns since his gun's feats are almost entirely in-line with actual IRL Guns (Which is strange because the guns used by I.M.P have super exaggerated bullet holes and effects, entirely exploding a Box-Style TV in one shot which is wildly above a normal 9mm)
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- Thread starter
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It's going into a mega CRT by Anonymous Learner.
WEAKENED Alastor. You know, the one we know for a fact can be 9-A? Instead of the guy currently scaled to Full Power Alastor who's shields no-sold everything from Excorcist hits to Angelic Weapons?
Mythic381
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Said weakened Alastor was still the strongest sinner somehow
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He was holding back and needed to present himself as weaker so Vox would buy into the deal and doesn't suspect anything.
He smacked Al's wound that was done by General of Exorcists. No shoot it drew blood from him. His profile LITERALLY has this in the weakness section:
Relying on hierarchy and then saying IMP > Overlord is kinda crazy. Also, you know that Val's current best feat is keeping up with W!Alastor who chainscales to FTL feat, right? Blitzo's own chainscaling to the FTL is more shaky than any Tier 5 Overlord is.
Not really. The actual statement does not say that. That's literally what OP says.
Be my guest to Overlords them to 9-B or below or something, it'd actually be funny so go ahead.
Mythic381
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My brother, did you see bro's reaction? He was literally flabbergasted.
You do realize they 're calling it out right? They're referring to how we don't believe in hierarchy yet have someone with ass feats higher than I.M.P.
By chance did you read this?
Anonymous_Learner
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"Alastor has anti feats too"
looks inside
Scarred, Weakened as shit Alastor with a staff held up through silly strings and prayers who stated himself that he was never challenged and in said fight where he was toying with the Vees knocks out vox in a single attack
looks inside
Scarred, Weakened as shit Alastor with a staff held up through silly strings and prayers who stated himself that he was never challenged and in said fight where he was toying with the Vees knocks out vox in a single attack
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By the way, what feat puts any member of the Ars Goetia within sniffing distance of Low 7-C... that, mind you, ISN'T environmental destruction
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He also a losing reaction to Vox when being restrained by him. He is literally putting an act.
No, it is used as an argument to say IMP > Valentino. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Also Val does have a good feat of harming popular Vox.
Yeah, and I disagree with this reading since I don't believe that's what Vivzie is saying at all. I agree with Reaper, Eden, and others here.
Mythic381
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He quite literally did not need to act that way, no one was looking at him, he was literally shocked.
They literally don't say that though. They quite literally mention anti-feats a sentence prior.
Based on concluding that Vivziepop means "in a fight" rather than "Who is more powerful" despite that being the question? Her answer doesn't even contradict the intention of the question.
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I see, so the answer is "No, our GOATs best feats are 8-C/High 8-C, we're relying on worship of Word of God to carry our scaling"
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They were surrounding him plus they literally have cameras and stuff, so don't think so.
No, his point was to say Alastor is weak by arguing IMP > Valentino > Alastor.
I've seen way too many times for authors to give answers that go into completely different direction than the wording of the question, so yes.
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Stolas literally has nothing that makes him Alastor tier that isn't environmental destruction, why tf would he scale to Al?
Mythic381
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They weren't though Vox was still knocked away, Velvette was behind him, and Valentino was busy with Alastor's dolls. Literally no one would've been able to make that sort of face that fast, as the arrow was literally so close to hitting him and he made that reaction almost instantly.
So logically it makes sense to you they're being serious about that despite arguing that the hierarchy is valid, more than believing that they were contending that idea?
So no proof besides outside authors not related to Vivziepop, so you use them as a way to say it's consistent that Vivziepop would also do that.
Mythic381
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Did you read OP? Or even know the reason this argument exists?
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