Elesia011
He/Him- 136
- 197
Yeah, I didn't deserve this, but I see your point.
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Type Moon Revival CRT relating high tiers and a few current relevant profiles - Part 1
- Thread starter ShinMaximillion
- Start date
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I dunno, OP you have to hyperscroll down for like 10 seconds explains itself pretty well...
IbukiDoujisGiantTail
They/Them- 182
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is there an eta for when the other parts come out?
also agree fra (if my vote counts lol), though shouldn't Divine Spirits just in general be 1-A even in their Servants forms/vessels? Like even in their lower level containers they are still treated as completely on another level compared to other Servants and still regarded as Divine Spirits (or Divided Spirits) despite losing some of their power by manifesting as Servants. IDK if the other parts will address this as well as just general servant scaling so take what i say with a grain of salt
also agree fra (if my vote counts lol), though shouldn't Divine Spirits just in general be 1-A even in their Servants forms/vessels? Like even in their lower level containers they are still treated as completely on another level compared to other Servants and still regarded as Divine Spirits (or Divided Spirits) despite losing some of their power by manifesting as Servants. IDK if the other parts will address this as well as just general servant scaling so take what i say with a grain of salt
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Servants beat the ass of divine spirits like Artemis and the Gorgon Sisters regularly in FGO, so I wouldn't be too sure.
IbukiDoujisGiantTail
They/Them- 182
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IDK about beat the ass of, for the most part whenever there's a fight with them it's either "they were saved due to Plot" or "alright the divine spirit is satisfied and doesn't care to fight anymore"
That said it's why I'm asking for when the other parts come out if there's an eta, I wanna know if servants in general will have in terms of their scaling since we do have servants that are still treated as Divine/Divided Spirits
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I see someone hasn't read Okeanos any time recently, cause both Artemis and Euryale get their asses beat/can't fight X.
X is usually Heracles, Hector, or Blackbeard. Not exactly people nobody scales to.
IbukiDoujisGiantTail
They/Them- 182
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??? Yknow Artemis giga nerfed herself to be summoned alongside Orion by specifically lowering her own Divinity to the point shes only slightly stronger than the average servant right? And Euryale is specifically noted to be physically weak for a goddess with no ability to fight on her own.
Plus Herc is a beast, Hektor is on par with Achilles and Blackbeard had the grail during Okeanos, so none of them are exactly slouches
My point is that we've come a long way since Okeanos with lots of other Divine/Divided Spirits in Servant Containers with high tier abilities and I just want to know how they should scale relative to other Servants since they are portrayed as being on another level
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He is. And I didn't see this guy denying he's Marshadow, who's indeed banned from this wiki.
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IP Banned, if memory serves correct. Persistent bugger. Socking was just one of many of the problems.
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Yeah, and I've had to read people unironically saying Marshadows previously revisions were consistent.
Guy's getting completely, utterly obliterated here. Absolute fraud. Deserved place in like the top 10 worst VSBW users to ever enter the wiki.
Guy's getting completely, utterly obliterated here. Absolute fraud. Deserved place in like the top 10 worst VSBW users to ever enter the wiki.
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All right, nipping this in the bud: Stop derailing. This goes for everyone. Staff are hardly going to want to read 18K+ words anyways, they are definitely not going to want to read that then derailing posts like this too. Save it for the discussion thread or preferably not at all.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,716
- Thread starter
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Of course, I'll just update the OP in one go after a bit.
Just saw this, lowkirkekuinely the thread isn't that long man trust, because Marshadow is spamming scans instead of responding. Besides, I hope it can be forgiven for the little teensy weensy length because it's a good read, trust trust
Everything is done, the next part was just on Spiritrons, human order and the stuff Marshadow actually mentioned. Because I do unironically agree that quantum Indeterminacy is a prevalent part of the Planet's cosmology, unironically, which has nothing to do with self-contemplative omniscience, though. Especially at the level of unity-of-separation (Soul of Neoplatonism, i.e., Anima Mundi), rather than unity of distinctions (the Pure Act, i.e., the Root). I find that to be the more interesting parts of the thread ngl, it's about human order or Alaya scaling. And explains the role of True Magic, in relation to statements about it being the final trials of humanity (human order to be precise).
And how mankind comes to separate from the Root, whilst simultaneously also still having not separated from the Root. And something on True Magic being just mankind remembering what they always were, God-like or Root-like.
Then it explains the reciprocal relationship between mankind and the gods. Faith, and how belief relates gods and humanity, how humans are simultaneously "encompassed within the physical by the Gods as aspects of nature", but simultaneously faith is what the Gods depend on. And therefore, Gods are spiritually or metaphysically dependent on humanity.
All of this is just a continuation of what is said in the thread, basically; this thread just couldn't be cut shorter without losing out on important context.
Depends on the Divine Spirit, honestly. Servants are not touching and will never touch Babylonia Quetzalcoatl ngl, the only person who put up a decent fight against a held-back version was Kingu. Held back at least, inasmuch as she didn't use the same extent of power she did with just about half of her authority against Tiamat when she put her on her knees, broke the barriers she created and cracked her horns, but not nearly enough to bypass Tiamat's immortality, I presume, considering that the charge of the attack scared Ushiwaka. Who's... Well, one of, if not the strongest, heroes alongside Gilgamesh.
Regular (non AOG) Magecraft also couldn't graze Pseudo-Servant Ishtar, because of the sheer mystery gap and we really couldn't do anything about her. And well... Let's just say Alcides vs Ishtar went very funny...
Another thing I'd add further is this.
We get told in Olympus that DS operate on the level of the very top servants' bare minimum. Most of the DS are above this, since this is the bare bones threshold. They exist outside of the framework of the Holy Grail, generally. The servants mentioned above in the quote can also, specifically, only "attempt" to fight or match what divine spirits do in base more often than not, through the virtue of their NPs most of the time, NPs that are most of the time, divine constructs or akin in power to one.
Divine Spirits are considered mountains, and humans (the vessels Divine Spirits typically use to descend to the material world, besides other unique vessels) are but grains of sand. And so, Ishtar, for example, with Rin's vessel, needs to have her power and being compressed to fit into the vessel.
Their 'hands' represent infinite reach as well, and so they have access to higher information interfaces that are normally inaccessible to humanity. Or perhaps, that's why divinities like Titan Atlas can hold up together the entire Greek Texture. Which explicitly has its own set of planets, stars, and apparently galaxies too and is a universe of its own.
Funny enough, there are also statements of mana of the AOG, in other words: True Ether. Being entire dimensions beyond the mana (regular ether) of Human order, and the fact that it's noted that True Ether is not just "more mana". But mana that's also more potent, and so it's not just about quantitative iteration. It's just qualitative discrepancies, which probably should've been obvious with Avalon being called "higher dimension". But not needing "more dimensions added" to reach it, but needs explicitly one condition, complete termination from physical constraints and by extension, the laws of physics.
But oh well. But yeah, I still maintain that Divine Spirits are probably not 1-A.
But I'm still waiting on Marshadow to actually stop pivoting and start responding. If his next response is him just deviating again, I'll get him reported. He already admitted to being him anyway, this thread just exists to prove he's arguing in bad faith, in need of this proof it was for the better to let him argue.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,716
- Thread starter
- #133
Well... Marshadow got clapped and dipped, can't say I'm shocked, wasn't expecting much from him either way. I'll circle back shortly to clear up everything he brought up, break down the actual context behind the content he was so graciously spamming without meaning to engage in it, which, as expected, is effectively being misleading to the core by hiding additional information. I'll address whatever points were made, and then bury this whole wasteful Marshadow drama and his argumentation tactics for good in a trash bin. 
@Reiner04 @TWILIGHT-OP @Theglassman12 Would appreciate it if this thread could be moved to staff soon-ish. Your votes after giving it a read would mean a lot as well.
I'll put together a summarised version for the OP, once I'm done shovelling dirt over the decaying pile of whatever's left of Wankbreaker's arguments.
@Reiner04 @TWILIGHT-OP @Theglassman12 Would appreciate it if this thread could be moved to staff soon-ish. Your votes after giving it a read would mean a lot as well.
I'll put together a summarised version for the OP, once I'm done shovelling dirt over the decaying pile of whatever's left of Wankbreaker's arguments.
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Well, the guy was banned, so it's not like he can continue arguing
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And here I was waiting for whatever "counter-argument' bro was gonna pull out. Oh well, I suppose it's better this way.
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1. Thankfully his sockpuppet ass got the boot.
2. Like Reaper and others have said, please make this a blog or something easier to read than the current OP.
3. What are the other 2 parts of the revision?
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Wouldn't really say so
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Wdym by that? Isn't it better Agonist is banned as to, yknow, not make this thread longer than it needs to be?
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Banning the only person who tried opposing the thread (no matter how valid) can do a lot to its legitimacy in people's eyes
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Didn’t stop wankbreaker’s CRT when he got people banned for opposing them
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And then you find out this same person was then banned for using fake translations, fake arguments, abusing alt accounts and then being a general creep all-round. Not only does that do way more damage to the verse itself, but it also leaves another humongous stain on our reputation of maintaining integrity. Maybe you should first read on these problematic people's history first before jumping to such conclusions.
With that being said, I hope the derailing stops and we can get to making a cosmology page and scaling page for the verse.
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heyo, OP just a suggestion add spoilers to the sections so its easier to read for staff
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Asides from what KLOL said above, he was a sockpuppet of a banned account who was knowingly trying to evade a ban. That's a bannable offense regardless of their position in a thread. Them's the breaks.
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I know, I've seen all 3 accounts myself, there's no doubts about that
I was merely stating that it isn't that "good" in a sense meant by the original message, since from a standpoint of feelings/vibes, a random passerby might think wrongly of the participants
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agree
ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn
He/Him- 3,889
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I think it's currently on a case-by-case basis? It will probably be fully resolved in the next parts.
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I heavily disagree with the 1-A proposal in this thread (I won't go into the higher dimensional stuff for now). The OP is long, so I'll try and list out the main arguments made for 1-A and respond to each.
But first, what even is 1-A? Quick overview
Qualitative superiority isn't some vague term you can use to wank a verse to 1-A based on mere statements of transcending space and time. Qualitative superiority describes power over lesser things (in the case of baseline 1-A, this would refer to all non-1A things) to the extent that it overpowers the entire framework of power that those lesser things participate in, regardless of any quantitative extension thereof. It follows that this power must not simply be a greater amount of the type of power that the lesser things participate in, but must be a categorically different type of power that is incomparable save for the fact that it overpowers the lesser system. It also follows that the nature of this power must be the direct cause of the superiority in power. It is not sufficient for a being to simply happen to be more powerful than all dimensional beings while also be of a different nature than them (such as being beyond dimensionality); its nature must directly cause its superiority over lesser beings.
Now for the actual arguments and counterarguments. I will list out the most important ones first and then respond to other ones in order:
Counterargument: That is just a misreading of the text. Origins do in fact undergo becoming.
Point 2: The Earth is capable of self-contemplation, taking on the role of both subject and object by directly observing itself unmediated.
Counterargument A: None of this is actually indicated in the text. While it is pointed out that an observer cannot observe themselves as the subject, there is literally no indication that the Earth is any different. All it says about the world is that it records phenomena, not that it is capable of observing itself as the subject in a way such that the subject and object of knowledge are identical in essence in the Neoplatonic sense. Shin is just eisegeting arbitrary elements of Neoplatonism into the text here.
Counterargument B: This also contradicts the fact that Earth is dependent on sapient life forms and dreams to know itself. The Earth does not directly observe itself as a subject in an unmediated fashion; rather, its knowledge of self is mediated by that which is external to it, just like literally any human (I in real life know myself through representations of myself that I construct as well as through other people)
Point 3: The Inner Sea is beyond extensionality because one must shed their physical ties to migrate to it
Counterargument A: The non-physicality of its inhabitants is not tied to any sort of universal superior power over lesser things, but literally just the ability to migrate to the Reverse Side of the World.
Counterargument B: It is unclear whether the non-physicality required to migrate to the Inner Sea refers to freedom from extensionality in general
Point 4: The Inner Sea is beyond extensionality since it has no coordinates
Counterargument: This, again, is a misreading of the text. INS lacks stable and measurable coordinates, but that is insufficient proof of it lacking coordinates and being beyond extensionality entirely.
Counterargument B: The other major problem with this is that the Shin fails to prove that INS's strange dimensional properties directly cause any sort of superiority in power over dimensions.
Point 5: The Inner Sea is prior to the laws of physics.
Counterargument: This is misleading. The Inner Sea is indeed removed from "human laws," but in the Nasuverse, there is a distinction between "human laws" and other laws of physics, such as laws of physics so fundamental that even gods have to follow them. There is no proof that dimensionality is by extension something that the Inner Sea is entirely beyond.
Point 6: Avalon offers absolute defense against all material interference
Counterargument A: Avalon's absolute defense against material interference stems from its putting the user in another dimension, not any sort of outerversal durability that inherently bypasses any sort of material power. In other words, using terminology from earlier, this is an "external relation," not an "internal relation."
Counterargument B: Even this protection is said to only go "up to the sixth" dimension, a limitation that would obviously discount it from being outerversal
Counterargument: Even if we're being generous, this is circumstantial evidence at best.
Point 8: The Inner Sea is the "true face" of the earth, it is the "truth" that lies under the surface
Counterargument: This doesn't say anything about the Inner Sea being "more real", let alone in any sense relevant to powerscaling
Point 9: The Ultimate Ones are the conglomerates of all perfections within their respective Celestial Bodies
My take: This is somewhat true to an extent depending on how you define "perfection," but don't dwell on this phrasing and don't be misled by it. It's not in any of the actual cited text
Point 10: The Ultimate One Arcueid is invulnerable to magecraft and all other phenomena on the planet since it is all based on her.
Counterargument: No, that's not said at all. It's only said that it wouldn't have much effect on her.
Point 11: The Inner Sea is a modal space since it has "logical coordinates"
Counterargument A: Assuming Shin is talking about a "logical space" in this specific sense, that is a nonsensical inference, as logical spaces don't have "logical coordinates" or coordinates at all for that matter.
Counterargument B: The idea that the Inner Sea is a logical space in the aforementioned sense implies that it contains all logically possible worlds (which would be High 1-A+ btw). This blatantly contradicts the fact that there are logically possible things external to earth and the Inner Sea in the Nasuverse. That is, of course, unless Shin is willing to cripple this concept of a "logical space" with so many limitations that it doesn't even scale that high anymore.
Point 12: The Inner Sea is greater than "any conceivable paradise that humans can think of"
Counterargument: That is a gross mischaracterization of the text. All it says is that "the paradise envisioned by mankind is but an imitation" of it. It never mentions "any conceivable paradise that humans can think of"
Point 13: There is no distinction between Earth's knowledge and existence
Counterargument: This is pure headcanon. Shin takes a scan that merely says that Earth cannot forget its memories of its dreams and literally just assumes that this is because there is supposedly no gap between Earth/Arcueid's knowledge and existence
Point 14: True Ether was qualitatively superior to Ether in the modern era
Note: (I really hope that Shin isn't unironically using this as proof that it's qualitatively superior in the powerscaling sense, but I'll write a bit to clear up any potential misconception over this regardless.) The scan is obviously not referring to qualitative superiority in the powerscaling sense. The scan literally just says that True Ether was more potent than modern Ether in addition to being more prevalent, nothing more.
Point 15: A miracle made "position lose all meaning"
Note: This is true, but it would be a hasty generalization to conclude that dimensionality is therefore meaningless for all True Magic and the Inner Sea. Contrary to Shin's claim that "supra-extensionality" is inherent to the Inner Sea which I already refuted above, there is no indication that this ability to make position lose its meaning somehow must apply to the nature of the Inner Sea or the inherent power of True Magic.
Point 16: Aphrodite's body is the Platonic ideal of the female form
Counterargument: This is cannot be literal truth because Platonic forms by definition are bodiless. Peperoncino is either speaking figuratively or inaccurately.
Point 17: There is no distinction between attributes and existence in gods. The reason why they have authority over their domains is because they are their domains.
Counterargument: That is not what Authorities are in Nasuverse at all. Authorities are the power of "making things happen because one has that right," so there are still distinctions between activity/energeia ("making things happen"), causal power (the "right"), and existence (the god themselves).
Point 18: The Throne of Heroes lacks space and time, transcending it.
Counterargument: This is just BD1, it's not 1-A.
But first, what even is 1-A? Quick overview
Qualitative superiority isn't some vague term you can use to wank a verse to 1-A based on mere statements of transcending space and time. Qualitative superiority describes power over lesser things (in the case of baseline 1-A, this would refer to all non-1A things) to the extent that it overpowers the entire framework of power that those lesser things participate in, regardless of any quantitative extension thereof. It follows that this power must not simply be a greater amount of the type of power that the lesser things participate in, but must be a categorically different type of power that is incomparable save for the fact that it overpowers the lesser system. It also follows that the nature of this power must be the direct cause of the superiority in power. It is not sufficient for a being to simply happen to be more powerful than all dimensional beings while also be of a different nature than them (such as being beyond dimensionality); its nature must directly cause its superiority over lesser beings.
To express the last point in other terms, this superiority in power must be an "internal relation" (that is, a relation that must hold true due to the very natures of the things that are related) between the power of the higher being and the power of the lesser beings, not an "external relation" (for our purposes, one that happens to hold true due to contingent circumstances external to the natures of the things that are related).
An example of an internal relation may be a blind man being unable to see paint due to his blindness. An example of an external relation on the other hand may be the fact that a passenger on an airplane flies above the earth not because of an inherent ability to fly, but due to the fact that an airplane happens to be carrying him.
An example of an internal relation may be a blind man being unable to see paint due to his blindness. An example of an external relation on the other hand may be the fact that a passenger on an airplane flies above the earth not because of an inherent ability to fly, but due to the fact that an airplane happens to be carrying him.
Now for the actual arguments and counterarguments. I will list out the most important ones first and then respond to other ones in order:
Key Points
Point 1: Origins are beyond becoming. At the level of the origin, the distinction between knowledge and being dissolvesCounterargument: That is just a misreading of the text. Origins do in fact undergo becoming.
The fact that an Origin records and determines the existence of a being does not preclude it from undergoing the process of becoming itself. On the contrary, origins are compared to "flash[es] of lightning emerging from the vortex of all things" and are said to be "born." Likewise, Origins are said to "arise at the beginning of a person or thing's existence." Unless there's some passage shin didn't cite that shows that all of this was symbolic the whole time, it seems pretty clear from the text that has been provided that there is no indication that origins are immutable in any sense; on the contrary, we have evidence that they do in fact "become".
As a result, it is also fallacious to assert that origins are beyond becoming and therefore free of potentiality, being pure activity/energeia.
As a result, it is also fallacious to assert that origins are beyond becoming and therefore free of potentiality, being pure activity/energeia.
Point 2: The Earth is capable of self-contemplation, taking on the role of both subject and object by directly observing itself unmediated.
Counterargument A: None of this is actually indicated in the text. While it is pointed out that an observer cannot observe themselves as the subject, there is literally no indication that the Earth is any different. All it says about the world is that it records phenomena, not that it is capable of observing itself as the subject in a way such that the subject and object of knowledge are identical in essence in the Neoplatonic sense. Shin is just eisegeting arbitrary elements of Neoplatonism into the text here.
Counterargument B: This also contradicts the fact that Earth is dependent on sapient life forms and dreams to know itself. The Earth does not directly observe itself as a subject in an unmediated fashion; rather, its knowledge of self is mediated by that which is external to it, just like literally any human (I in real life know myself through representations of myself that I construct as well as through other people)
Point 3: The Inner Sea is beyond extensionality because one must shed their physical ties to migrate to it
Counterargument A: The non-physicality of its inhabitants is not tied to any sort of universal superior power over lesser things, but literally just the ability to migrate to the Reverse Side of the World.
As I mentioned earlier, qualitative superiority describes power that is categorically superior to that of lesser beings who lack it. There is no aspect of this that is at all implied in the provided texts. As is noted on the page on Beyond-Dimensional Existence, simply being beyond dimensionality isn't enough for 1-A. Qualitatively superior beings need to additionally have power superior to all dimensional beings by virtue of their nature, regardless of any quantity of power that the dimensional beings can possibly have. Note the phrase "by virtue of." On top of this, the non-physical nature of the Inner Sea must be the direct cause of this superior power over physical reality. (In other words, using the terminology I talked about at the beginning of the post, this superiority in power must be an "internal relation" and not an "external relation"). That is a huge burden that Shin has not come close to fulfilling.
As is also mentioned in the page on Beyond Dimensional Existence, "incorporeal beings" such as ghosts may still be spatially extended, meaning that simply being "incorporeal" or non-physical is not sufficient proof of lacking extensionality. It is unclear whether the "physical ties" one must liberate themselves from to migrate to the Inner Sea refers to the quality of extensionality in general, or simply the qualities of having "fleshly" "crude" or "coarse" bodies as opposed to spiritual bodies.
As an aside, I don't actually think it's entirely unclear, however. The parts of the raw Japanese text (pretty sure this is the specific part) translated as "physical" and "form of a spirit" seem to be "busshitsuseki" (物質的) and "reitai" (霊体) respectively. The use of "reitai", if I'm not mistaken, also seems to imply that the spiritual forms that the fairies take aren't entirely beyond dimensionality in the sense of lacking spatial extension, but simply "refined" or "spiritual" bodies as opposed to the "physical"/"corporeal" bodies that the giants have, since "reitai" means "spiritual body" (which can be seen)
Additionally, spiritrons aren't touched on yet, but spiritrons are considered "spiritual" and "non-physical" yet are described as having shapes and sizes
As an aside, I don't actually think it's entirely unclear, however. The parts of the raw Japanese text (pretty sure this is the specific part) translated as "physical" and "form of a spirit" seem to be "busshitsuseki" (物質的) and "reitai" (霊体) respectively. The use of "reitai", if I'm not mistaken, also seems to imply that the spiritual forms that the fairies take aren't entirely beyond dimensionality in the sense of lacking spatial extension, but simply "refined" or "spiritual" bodies as opposed to the "physical"/"corporeal" bodies that the giants have, since "reitai" means "spiritual body" (which can be seen)
Additionally, spiritrons aren't touched on yet, but spiritrons are considered "spiritual" and "non-physical" yet are described as having shapes and sizes
Point 4: The Inner Sea is beyond extensionality since it has no coordinates
Counterargument: This, again, is a misreading of the text. INS lacks stable and measurable coordinates, but that is insufficient proof of it lacking coordinates and being beyond extensionality entirely.
In fact, the fact that it is said that time and space are "ambiguous" in the Inner Sea implies that they still exist in the Inner Sea, even if they aren't measurable.
Additionally, while the text does say that direction, time, and distance "cannot be defined" in INS, this still doesn't mean that direction, time, and distance do not exist at all in INS. One must note that this inability to define direction, time, and distance is something that is present in real life as well. Due to the uncertainty principle, it is impossible to simultaneously and accurately define a particle's velocity (which includes direction) and position (which includes time and distance). Interpreting the text in light of this and the comparisons with quantum mechanical phenomena (except obviously on a macroscopic scale) makes much more sense than immediately jumping to the conclusion that INS lacks spatiotemporal extensionality entirely. On top of that, to conclude that INS is beyond dimensionality entirely Shin would still have to prove that this is a fundamental, real metaphysical consequence of INS lacking extensionality entirely rather than simply an epistemological limitation arising from humanity's inability to understand the extensionality that INS has.
Additionally, while the text does say that direction, time, and distance "cannot be defined" in INS, this still doesn't mean that direction, time, and distance do not exist at all in INS. One must note that this inability to define direction, time, and distance is something that is present in real life as well. Due to the uncertainty principle, it is impossible to simultaneously and accurately define a particle's velocity (which includes direction) and position (which includes time and distance). Interpreting the text in light of this and the comparisons with quantum mechanical phenomena (except obviously on a macroscopic scale) makes much more sense than immediately jumping to the conclusion that INS lacks spatiotemporal extensionality entirely. On top of that, to conclude that INS is beyond dimensionality entirely Shin would still have to prove that this is a fundamental, real metaphysical consequence of INS lacking extensionality entirely rather than simply an epistemological limitation arising from humanity's inability to understand the extensionality that INS has.
Counterargument B: The other major problem with this is that the Shin fails to prove that INS's strange dimensional properties directly cause any sort of superiority in power over dimensions.
Note that it would be insufficient to point out that INS disintegrates normal beings (this is an "external relation" contingent on the INS possessing hax that normal beings do not have resistance to). Besides the fact that Shin hasn't actually proven that INS is beyond dimensionality, to prove that INS has qualitative superiority via its strange dimensional properties, Shin would also have to prove that they directly cause a superiority in power over dimensional entities, which he has not done.
Point 5: The Inner Sea is prior to the laws of physics.
Counterargument: This is misleading. The Inner Sea is indeed removed from "human laws," but in the Nasuverse, there is a distinction between "human laws" and other laws of physics, such as laws of physics so fundamental that even gods have to follow them. There is no proof that dimensionality is by extension something that the Inner Sea is entirely beyond.
The context of the above quotes involving Quetzalcoatl was that Ritsuka/the MC asked Quetzalcoatl if she could just make a bigger body for herself to use lucha on Tiamat's giant form. Quetzalcoatl then replies that she could not in fact do so because it would break the law of conservation of mass, a law so fundamental that even gods are bound by it. Additionally, while there are exceptions to this, what Quetzalcoatl says next dispels any claim that this was only true due to the Age of Gods having ended. Quetzalcoatl goes on to explain that the kind of Authority that could violate this law only existed during the era of Genesis rather than being something that all gods inherently possessed over the course of the entire Age of Gods.
Note that I am not arguing that the law of conservation of mass necessarily applies to the Inner Sea. My point is only to show that "human laws" in the Nasuverse do not encompass all physical laws including dimensionality; consequently, any scan showing that the Inner Sea is "removed from human laws" does not prove that the Inner Sea is beyond dimensionality.
Note that I am not arguing that the law of conservation of mass necessarily applies to the Inner Sea. My point is only to show that "human laws" in the Nasuverse do not encompass all physical laws including dimensionality; consequently, any scan showing that the Inner Sea is "removed from human laws" does not prove that the Inner Sea is beyond dimensionality.
Point 6: Avalon offers absolute defense against all material interference
Counterargument A: Avalon's absolute defense against material interference stems from its putting the user in another dimension, not any sort of outerversal durability that inherently bypasses any sort of material power. In other words, using terminology from earlier, this is an "external relation," not an "internal relation."
Counterargument B: Even this protection is said to only go "up to the sixth" dimension, a limitation that would obviously discount it from being outerversal
Secondary Points (in my opinion)
Point 7: The surface and the versions of Arcueid across parallel worlds are just "dreams", the lion king's lance is a "shadow" that the Tower casts on the worldCounterargument: Even if we're being generous, this is circumstantial evidence at best.
Of course, we can't actually use any of these statements to prove 1-A. At best, these can only serve as circumstantial/supporting evidence. Both common sense and our standards make it abundantly clear that descriptions of worlds being "dreams," "shadows" or other such metaphors are insufficient to prove qualitative superiority.
Point 8: The Inner Sea is the "true face" of the earth, it is the "truth" that lies under the surface
Counterargument: This doesn't say anything about the Inner Sea being "more real", let alone in any sense relevant to powerscaling
We can't use any of this as proof of R>F transcendence. Contrary to the way in which Shin words it, the text never says that the Inner Sea is the "true reality" as if it were "actually real" as opposed to the "not really real" surface. Instead, the Lion King phrases it as the Inner Sea being the "true face" of the Earth which implies that the Inner Sea is "more true to the identity of the Earth [ie the "face"]" rather than being "more truly real". Kinda like if I said that someone's face under their makeup is their "true face" which obviously isn't a metaphysical statement about them having 1-A qualitative superiority over the makeup on their face.
Point 9: The Ultimate Ones are the conglomerates of all perfections within their respective Celestial Bodies
My take: This is somewhat true to an extent depending on how you define "perfection," but don't dwell on this phrasing and don't be misled by it. It's not in any of the actual cited text
Note that even in Aristotelian philosophy, for example, nothing actually becomes absolutely perfect. The only "thing" that has absolute ontological perfection is the Tier 0 Actus Purus which lacks all potentiality whatsoever. Absolute ontological perfection is not something that would be encompassed by an Ultimate One's domain.
Point 10: The Ultimate One Arcueid is invulnerable to magecraft and all other phenomena on the planet since it is all based on her.
Counterargument: No, that's not said at all. It's only said that it wouldn't have much effect on her.
It would be disingenuous to frame this as proof that Ultimate Ones have the same sort of inherent absolute defense against magecraft as 1-A beings have against non-1-A beings, so I hope that's not what Shin is getting at. Additionally, note that the implication that magecraft would still have some effect on her actually serves as counterevidence against Arcueid being outerversal (or at least, this form of Arcueid), since the author seems to accept that magecraft is non-1-A
Point 11: The Inner Sea is a modal space since it has "logical coordinates"
Counterargument A: Assuming Shin is talking about a "logical space" in this specific sense, that is a nonsensical inference, as logical spaces don't have "logical coordinates" or coordinates at all for that matter.
And if one were to demand a more reasonable alternative, there are at least three much more reasonable interpretations of "logical coordinates" in the text that Shin cites: 1. "logical coordinates" could simply be made-up technobabble with unknown meaning. 2. "logical coordinates" could be a reference to the practice of using "logical coordinates" in programming, where display elements are organized based not on any specific display system's physical coordinate system, but are instead organized relative to each other based on the logic that the programmer writes down. As a result, it is scalable to many different frameworks and machines, which fits in with the idea of coordinates in INS being relative and not tied down to any particular 1:1 correspondence with coordinates in real space. 3. "all logical coordinates" could literally just refer to the combat team's platform drifting away to any reasonably possible coordinate that they could have drifted to in INS.
Point 12: The Inner Sea is greater than "any conceivable paradise that humans can think of"
Counterargument: That is a gross mischaracterization of the text. All it says is that "the paradise envisioned by mankind is but an imitation" of it. It never mentions "any conceivable paradise that humans can think of"
Point 13: There is no distinction between Earth's knowledge and existence
Counterargument: This is pure headcanon. Shin takes a scan that merely says that Earth cannot forget its memories of its dreams and literally just assumes that this is because there is supposedly no gap between Earth/Arcueid's knowledge and existence
This does seem to be based on Shin's earlier assertions that Origins are beyond becoming and therefore pure energeiai and that Earth is in this weird state of semi-transcending the subject-object distinction, but those were also incorrect claims, of course.
Point 14: True Ether was qualitatively superior to Ether in the modern era
Note: (I really hope that Shin isn't unironically using this as proof that it's qualitatively superior in the powerscaling sense, but I'll write a bit to clear up any potential misconception over this regardless.) The scan is obviously not referring to qualitative superiority in the powerscaling sense. The scan literally just says that True Ether was more potent than modern Ether in addition to being more prevalent, nothing more.
As an analogy, if I were to compare nuclear fuel to coal and say that "there isn't just more of it; it is more potent too" that wouldn't be a statement about qualitative superiority in the powerscaling sense.
Point 15: A miracle made "position lose all meaning"
Note: This is true, but it would be a hasty generalization to conclude that dimensionality is therefore meaningless for all True Magic and the Inner Sea. Contrary to Shin's claim that "supra-extensionality" is inherent to the Inner Sea which I already refuted above, there is no indication that this ability to make position lose its meaning somehow must apply to the nature of the Inner Sea or the inherent power of True Magic.
Point 16: Aphrodite's body is the Platonic ideal of the female form
Counterargument: This is cannot be literal truth because Platonic forms by definition are bodiless. Peperoncino is either speaking figuratively or inaccurately.
Point 17: There is no distinction between attributes and existence in gods. The reason why they have authority over their domains is because they are their domains.
Counterargument: That is not what Authorities are in Nasuverse at all. Authorities are the power of "making things happen because one has that right," so there are still distinctions between activity/energeia ("making things happen"), causal power (the "right"), and existence (the god themselves).
Point 18: The Throne of Heroes lacks space and time, transcending it.
Counterargument: This is just BD1, it's not 1-A.
As mentioned earlier, something not only has to go beyond the framework of space and time, but have absolute superiority in power over it to qualify for qualitative superiority/1-A. Shin has not provided evidence of anything beyond Type 1 Beyond-Dimensional Existence for the Throne of Heroes and Heroic Spirits, only having cited evidence of things such as Heroic Spirits transcending space and time and the Throne lacking space and time (and also some metaphors that sound like R>F but are ultimately insufficient proof of it). Heroic Spirits in the Throne of Heroes don't even have any direct causal power other than that granted by their manifestations as servants.
I absolutely agree with you. And i hardly disagree with the proposal.
1-A means that the entity must possess a type of existence or power that is categorically superior to dimensional existence itself, such that no amount of dimensional power could reach or affect it, and why am i saying this ?, because many arguments in the proposal attempt to argue transcendence and 1-A requires qualitative ontological superiority not transcendence or separation. as you said.
i also noticed that this proposal repeatedly makes this inference chain and equivocate between their properties, like non-physicality, conceptual existence aka abstraction, imaginary spaces, "no coordinates", beyond extensionality to qualitative superiority
but also my problem is that none of these are equivalent to each other.
Non physical literally and simply means that the said being is not made of matter or physical substance or basically no solid stuff, many non physical things still exist in space, have location, have size, move of interact with physical objects
you lowk also used a good argument, is the distinction between internal and external relations, basically external relation is a superiority that exists due to circumstances, example, like being in another dimension, being intangible or non physical, abstract existence, haxes or transcending space-time (existing outside it or yk just having resistance to time-based attacks), these absolutely do not prove qualitative superiority and have nothing to do with scaling, but there is the internal relation, which is basically the superiority that exists because of the nature of existence and the very properties of the being which is indeed ontological superiority
now here is the thing, non physical doesnt rlly mean non extensional, ghosts are non physical but still occupy space, energy fields are non solid but can still extended, electromagnetic waves are non-solid but spatial, you also correctly points out that even spiritrons have size and shape, which directly contradicts the idea that spiritual things lack extension. in conclusion the inner sea argument based on non-physicality doesn't really prove lack of dimensionality or anything
also the the coordinate argument isn't the best either, within fiction, there are many real and fictional spaces that have unstable coordinates, have non euclidean geometry, relative coordinates, have unmeasurable distances, warped spacetime, quantum uncertainty or have variable metrics etc n much more but still spatially extended
Also about the r>f argument it's just filled with metaphors that rlly cannot be used to argue such interpretation, words like dreams, shadows, true face, paradise, imitations, reflections are all metaphorical or identity statements
abt the throne argument, i also agree with you, it really isnt any explicit statements for the throne having superior to space-time in nature, it surely exists outside it tho, and as you said, it's BDE t1, and about the heroic spirits, heroic spirits are recorded human souls stored in the throne, summoned through ritual systems into class containers, powered by mana, regulated by the counter force, and capable of being harmed or destroyed by other lower entities like humans or low tier servants, such characteristics clearly demonstrate that they operate within the lower world's framework, clearly contradicts any qualitative superiority which is a requirement for 1-A, the proposal also never proves that the inner sea or any of these entities possess power that is inherently superior to all dimensional power by virtue of their actual nature nor how r they qualitatively superior to lower beings, heroic spirits originates from lower systems and laws (human history), they're limited by its energy systems (mana), also regulated by its maintenance system (counter force) and they're also harmed by its entities
Aldo about the higher dimensional existence arguments (specifically the beasts part, precisely goetia)
Some of my refutations for now:
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ShinMaximillion
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I don't know, man, this was never a justification at any point in the OP, really.
Refer to my talking points on the Inner Sea being non-extensional, unless you need me to clarify some confusion here.
Refer to part 1 of the thread or create a separate thread to denounce the Akashic Records being High 1-A+ (Type 2), as delineated there in the thread. Also, refer to the parts in the op that talk about the observed and object observed unifying, making both Eternal. On top of that, refer to the parts that talk about the Akashic Records as a complete record of everything, past, present and future and where everything is complete.
If there's anything you need clarification on, I'm here, because the talking points for Origins being immutable are there. But of course, if you think it is figurative, you're also welcome to cash out an in-depth analysis on the figurative speech and list out the contextual clues that led to that conclusion. Because there's genuinely no way anyone who even understands a fraction of metaphysics thinks this is not immutable:
And Gray alongside Ryougi, gain an experience of the end of the world, in a non-dual lens. Gray described the existence of an incomprehensible record as a 'flow' that is both nothing, everything and ultimately herself as both nothing and everything—an undivided flow: three distinctive modes of apprehending it.
Because if you unironically think this is not immutable, then your understanding of metaphysics is cute, really. Further, tell us what you think the figure of speech intends to convey here.
To cite the scan again, since you seem a little too hasty in rebuttals than you are in reading slowly:
Now read everything slower, deep breaths in and deep breaths out. Be calm and chill, it's talking about tracing back to the memories of the world. And why it is impossible for a human, because a human cannot observe themselves as the subject.
To put this in layman's terms, if it wasn't clear, there's the condition here and the deduction from the condition.
Miscellaneous
- Condition: to trace back to the memories of the world
- Justification within the narrative: The observer observing themselves as a subject.
- Deduction: the world possesses memories of all the creatures of the world, which are also the Planet, of course. But nevertheless, to possess the world's memories in the same way the world does, it must suffice that the observer can see itself as a subject.
Miscellaneous
- This is further motivated by the fact that the Inner Sea is a realm of the Celestial Body itself. And it is also the dream the Planet itself is seeing, so a dream the Planet sees of itself.
Bold of you to say, because I really doubt you read Neoplatonism, but oh well. If you need me to break down anything above further, you can ask about that, too. Because it seems you didn't understand quite a bit of what I was saying or arguing for.
Okay, so this is the Marshadow tactic of isolating context and ignoring other statements for a convenient narrative, it seems. Are you a student of his, perchance? Anyway, unrelated to this. If you check the op, I already clarified this section that you're taking out of context here
The only way for your interpretation to go through is if you ignore the scan that undercuts this interpretation, that is, explicit scans that talk about the Archetype as omniscient once more. My interpretation is the synthesis of this scan you're referring to, and the scans that discuss the Archetype being omniscient
This is why I asked context not to be omitted, because intertextuality is prevalent in Type Moon. You can't just avoid other scans to conveniently pick out the ones you want to use to purport a narrative.
Example:
In Oblivion Recording, the absence of Eternity is regarded as Eternal. And the scans in Tsukihime remake are an explication of a dictum that was once echoed as far back as Kara no Kyoukai. So you're not making yourself look good by arguing this way, honestly.
Refer to the first argument in this response and feel free to respond.
I think I've articulated very explicit examples of the Inner Sea being pretty much universal, and its archetype ranging over the entire Surface Texture. But if you don't care to engage with that and pretend that doesn't exist, then neither will I. Saves my energy, really.
Mind you, the reason why the Inner Sea is inaccessible and unreachable (I hope you don't think it being unreachable has nothing to do with transcendence, even when it is explicitly a higher plane of existence and True Magic itself lol) is not because it is larger or is trivially a "higher dimension":
Refer to my quote in Quantitative and Liberation from Extensionality, assuming you bothered going through it
But because you need to be liberated from physical constraints, if you wish to flatten this to them saying "it's just an ability to migrate to the Reverse Side of the World" and truly feel confident that this responds to anything, you're welcome to ignore this part of the response then. Because I just think you avoided actually responding meaningfully.
Throughout the message, it's Shin this, Shin, that lol, I know my name is captivating, thank you very much, but none of my justifications relies on external relations, mind you, everything about my descriptions of the Inner Sea was based on internal relations of intelligible content. I think the motivations for fulfilling my burdens are untouched thus far
I agree!!!!!!
Well... If you ignore the fact that True Magic is just outright non-extensional ontologically and phenomenologically, and the Inner Sea is True Magic itself. Hence why it is described as bereft of the laws of physics, and sections of it, like the Throne of Heroes, are described as having no space-time, haha.
It's the same thing with the Marshadow rebuttals, really; they all seem impressive if you ignore intertextuality and flatten context by oversimplification, as I stated in the Nasuverse thread.
Yeah, ignoring the entire Inner Sea being True Magic. Which is described as being a type of law that involves overcoming a wall of dimensions (in plural), and going outside of the laws of the universe simpliciter. Its not some particular higher knowledge, it is just the unity of mediation and immediacy simpliciter. Unless you think the Root is also non-dual, all is just intertextuality. You're going to have to do a lot of heavy lifting if you intend to contest the thread, because everything builds on an internally consistent chain of reasoning.
Arguing that true magic is extensional in any sense involves presupposing that dualistic thinking is relevant to its attainment. Naturally, also presupposes its effects are extensional even when you're told otherwise. I mean, yeah:
Even when you're told it dissolves coordinates/position, time and the certainty of space-time. You know, pretty common stuff, considering that luminary forces the world to distance itself without changing size or shape. Because ultimately, all of these laws of physics stuff is nothing but shaky in the face of True Magic, nothing but a sheet of paper that can be ripped away.
So, if we are to ignore nearly half of the interconnected reasons for the justification behind the Inner Sea being 1-A. Then I'm sure this might be persuasive elsewhere.
This is so cool, bro. Really cool stuff if you ignore half of the justifications.
Ambiguous to the psychic channel of common sense, yes. But it's also measurable by other metrics unrelated to geometry, because again, discursive distinctions exist downstream in the material world. Not in the Inner Sea, all of this being based on it being self-contemplative once more. So refer back to my first responses, and you can respond to them adequately this time. If you can. But in any case, there's nothing like "geometry" and "topology" in a way understood at a quantitative level. Because again, True Magic is not extensional, nor is the experience of attaining it, which is solely based on depth of conscious experience, also not extensional.
You're welcome to cash out ways you can argue against about 10 scans telling you that True Magic is just the seer seeing itself through itself. Not through external determinations like spatial relations and distinctions, in a discursive sense (in a sense applied to Low 1-A and below).
This is not a matter of how many power scaling buzzwords are in the op, and as soon as you understand that, I truly believe you'd have a less hard time seeing the consistency being built here. Because you must understand that something like lightning and wind exists in the Inner Sea. But none of those things has meaning scientifically, because what the entire narrative is telling you is that these things are just "mysteries" lol. That's the laws of the Inner Sea and the Age of Gods, the only way for these things to be meaningfully used as downgrades, as if the verse otherwise assigned predication of those terms in the same way it applies to the Inner Sea. And the entire point of the thread is that it doesn't, and all the scans and arguments build consistency on that.
Such a forced analogy, considering that the uncertainty principle doesn't claim that space and time are undefinable. Unless you are confused by the uncertainty principle, for saying that somehow.
Now I completely agree with you that it is a quantum mechanical phenomenon. But notice how even that is unrelated to the premise of whether or not it is 1-A. Because in rigorous quantum mechanics and under scientific consensus, there's nothing like a "space where everything can be hypothesised, and a space that embodies the uncertainty principle, such that because 'coordinates' for what they instantiate, have no fixed meaning" or in other words, the space having no canonical metric.
May I humor with the reason as to why that's the case? Because none of this has to do with quantum mechanics, but quantum mysticism at best. Which, if your reason for thinking is not 1-A, is a niche interpretation of how consciousness relates to and interacts with the fundamentally unobserved.
Just a poor critique again, really.
I mean, if it wasn't enough that the "coordinates" in the INS aren't even geometric but refer to logical relations, and the realm itself is considered the unity of all of those logical relations. Then I'm sure ignoring the part assigns predication of transcendence by associating this nature of the INS with the 'omnipotence' of the Primordial Chaos.
I'm not keen on muddying the thread by addressing half-hearted responses like this. Put some work into your punches to at least motivate me. You're really trying hard to separate clearly 1-A descriptions first from transcendence, ignoring the fact that all of these layers are just grades of consciousness and how consciousness relates to itself.
All the INS is, is a canvas that includes all possibilities and therefore has no rigid structure of its own. It's called higher dimensional for that reason, and surrounds lostbelts and timelines for that reason.
Yeah, no, so far I was tolerating this, but this time it might be high time to pack it up now and start reading the verses you try to comment on lol. Because that absolutely has nothing to do with the Inner Sea, if you weren't too busy trying to comment on debunks, you wouldn't have missed the explicit part about texture withdrawal
Where I tell you with a citation, mind you, that AOG textures become 'metaphysical' and part of the Inner Sea ONLY after the end of the Age of Gods. And I separate the scaling of God's vessels and the hax of Gods, read man read, at least try when you're gonna contest arguments, this is all just lazy reasoning at this point, really.
The scan comes from a Divine Spirit that is inhabiting a physical vessel like... Idk every Divine Spirit? Literally already established in the op. Obviously, the physical laws apply to those physical bodies, but gods only go to the Reverse Side after the Age of Gods.
They used to rule the surface texture of the world before. There's a reason why I stopped in the middle of the thread to argue God's being outright 1-A I'm waiting to finish up with everything and stuff like this in part 2. So not only did you fail to track the op, but you also misused the context of your own scans.
So while we're at it, please read this verse specifically before using Wankbreaker's scans without context.
For this argument to go through, you, much like Marshadow, have to commit to the "8-dimensional Mooncell" being superior to Avalon, if you treat x-dimensional to be akin to geometric embedding and orthogonality. But you can't even argue that, because that's opposed to how the verse actually works lool. Almost as if this blunder of a response isn't the reason why my view is more internally consistent. I mean, you're welcome to argue Mooncell > Avalon man, surely you'll also have motivation to cash out the coherence of a 30% Arcueid causing stress to the 8-dimensional Mooncell. Really? An avatar of a geometrically 6-dimensional, in pure existence alone, causing stress to the geometrically 8-dimensional plane?
I'm in genuine tears, look at this
Then, after you do that, you leap to pretending to be surprised about how that conclusion was drawn
Which only goes through if you pretend you didn't see the statement saying the surface phenomena is a shadow of the tower at the end in its true form within the Inner Sea. And amazingly enough, you found a way to even isolate that from the statements of the Archetype dreaming in the Inner Sea. Incredible levels of pure sophistry.
I would say that if I didn't understand metaphysics too. I'm really confused as to why anyone would confidently come to try to evaluate this if they were this confused about the arguments. But
1. You do understand that self-contained and self-determination systems of ontology are the perfection of the particulars enclosed in the system, right?
2. And you do understand that all creatures spring forth as potencies from the Ultimate One, and return to the Ultimate One (Celestial Egg) at the end of their existence, right?
3. So you do understand this implies that the Celestial Egg and Ultimate One are a teleological self-closure, right? Do you even know what that is?
Also, what do you mean by "they don't exist in any of the texts"
1. Hello? It says the Original One has no limits and is perfect loooollll
2. Hello#2? It says all beings return to the Celestial Egg. You do KNOW this means things are fulfilled within the embrace of the Celestial Egg, and you DO know that fulfilment is tied to perfection in metaphysics, right? Right? Tsk tsk.
3. Hello#3? Says the same thing, that the sapient species of the Planet have their own denouement, and it's the Ultimate One. Denouement is quite literally the realisation (hence perfection of something), excuse me for you being confident to type in a 1-A thread when you don't understand verbiage that relates to 1-A.
Also, completely ignore how an inhabitant of the Inner Sea is specifically regarded as the perfection of what she embodies and also every other allegory of perfection I referenced in the op. Catch me citing the 20th statement telomera conveniently ignored to come to these egregious conclusions out of sophistry.
Ultimate One? The Arcueid with a Saint Graph, not even a World Egg frame, who's saying this? This being a reference to her Magic Resistance A+?
I'm unsure how exactly you relegated her to Arcueid at 100%, or to Arcueid with World Egg Frame at all. I'll engage in a disinterested manner; it's simple. Her backup, one of her primary smurf haxes, negates this. She even notes that once she experiences something she hasn't before, such as South American artifacts which probably have roots in an Alien Order, given what we know of their history, it won't work on her ever again.
So I don't know what we're smoking here, especially comparing a statement from Saint Graph Arcueid to that of the World Egg frame.
Not only that, your translation is flawed, whatever you sent out.
Translation in-game:
Your translation:
Blatantly posting misworded scans that suit your agenda? See the Magecraft (魔術 Majutsu Magecraft) here? It reiterates it as Magic (魔法 Mahou Literal descriptor for True Magic) lol, which just ganks on your own argument. I really should have you reported for using misconstructive scans here, but I'll let it go just this once. I suppose it happens to the best of us.
Neither does the Root have coordinates, but I guess even from the 100th time I re-emphasise something to you, it just flies over your head. I have totally gone over how descriptions and predicates like "coordinates" are ill-defined in Type Moon, because of dimension anti-realism. Now, if you're so obsessed with the word coordinate, just create another thread and argue the Root being a coordinate because they call it that several times, and I'll just beat you on that. Makes no difference.
Because this is not derived from that part, read the entire scan
Where this is derived from is the Inner Sea having an activity of self-contemplation, as explained with respect to your lazy responses in the initial parts of my responses. And on top of that, because you're told it is forever beyond human reach. Because it eludes human cognition simpliciter, saying the otherwise is the equivalent of saying the Inner Sea is part of human order lol.
But I wouldn't put it past you to argue that, considering that you're arguing with the scans of other scalers, not with the scans that you have gotten yourself. You don't read the verse after all.
Shin this, Shin that x2. You could've just asked me to explain to you what self-contemplation is and entails; it looks like you need that too. There's obviously no gap between the knowledge and existence of the self-contemplative being, because their contemplative is what constitutes their existence, because their activity is also their existence.
It doesn't have to be at the level of Pure Act, because Neoplatonic Soul is just like that as well. So, what you mean by "pure headcanon" is just you not understanding the verbiage of the tier you're trying to evaluate. Next time, try to be more faithful to people you're arguing against instead of the unnecessary "pure headcanon" commentary, be it Nasuverse or any other work you're 'downgrading' without critically comprehending the substance.
As if saying something as laughable as "the shadow description is but a metaphor". Like, oh wow man, I totally didn't know that. Must you think Tier 0 unironically views lower tiers as fiction and as a dream in a literal sense, don't ya?
Because that response is either arguing from ignorance willingly, or arguing from bad faith or both, there's no in between really.
Yeah, I don't think writers think in a power scaling sense. This might be a you-only thing, you thinking this is a rebuttal is just a reflection of your brainrot really. We pretty much agree here.
Because the intention of the thread wasn't to describe anything particularly in a power scaling sense, but was solely just systemising the abstract language of Type Moon and the subtle subtext in certain texts.
And of course, clarifying misinformed opinions about metaphysics, because I believe that's one of the harder things to overcome when it comes to understanding Type Moon.
Besides catching onto other obvious symbolism like between the Origin and Plato's Forms, mind you, considering that the relation the Origin has to the particulars it governs is that of participation. That's why certain people can be "closer to their Origin" than others.
I am honestly still astounded that you read everything about Origins and came to the conclusion that something like that can be immutable. Because you don't even need a direct statement for it being immutable, if it is already an indivisible essence of existence that initiates the motion of teleology. Or perhaps properly speaking here, teleonomy.
I hope you notice a pattern in your arguments; you've repeatedly shifted the depth of the evidence. By isolating context, then asking for the opponent to prove impossible burdens consistently. Not a single sufficient engagement with the proposal, and at times, you seemed completely oblivious to other things within the proposal, whether or not it is on purpose is up for debate.
>sees scan 1
Very meaningful and productive.
Pack it up, man... pack it up, it's time to go.
I almost want to not speak... If you read the verse, you'd know he's not talking about her PHYSICAL BODY hah. But of course you don't, the context of the scan is what Aphrodite symbolically represents. That is, her archetypal form as a concept in the Inner Sea, which is why they say she's like the Goddess of Beauty Ishtar; they symbolise the same thing. Never once was this about bodies, btw. So chopped, I even explain it myself and explicitly tell you the scan is talking about what they symbolise, wait, do you even read the scans actually?
I prefer not to speak man...
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Really loving the 3 sleeper agent accounts that ranges from 2-7 messages posted in their lifetime appearing out of nowhere the moment Mr T speaks
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Especially how an account with 2 messages and 0 likes happens to be knowledgeable on tier 1 somehow.
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If you suspect sockpuppeting, take it to RVR. Stop derailing.
ShinMaximillion
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I wasn't planning to comment on anything to your comment and skim it by, but I got to this section and well, to hell with it, I'll go engage. I had veins popping out reading some of this.
BUT HOLY LARP bro. Holy larp.
There's no "true form heroic spirit" that has actually lost to a human. Can y'all actually put effort into these contentions, or just never bother to save us all our precious time? Since none of this is worth anything, being honest.
What are we even reading?
Heroic Spirits being harmed by humans or low tier servants? Quote me on this, my guy. Do it. Go, I daresay, you cannot.
Is your source, Fate/Orand Gorder or Fate/Stay Mad, per chance? I'm sorry, I'm simply too inexperienced in Type Moon after all, it seems.
False, mind you. Thankfully, I explained how Alaya-Vijnana actually works, the world's memories at the level of Alaya are humanity's memories. That's why the unconditioned Alaya is just humanity recognising itself as inseparable from the Planet. Assuming you even read that, of course you didn't haha! Thank you so much.
Heroic Spirits are explicitly stated to be memories of the world and memories of humanity, because the transcendent spirit (Alaya) of humanity is unified with the Inner Sea. And the Souls of mankind exist in the Inner Sea, mind you, whereof the archetypes of the Inner Sea exist.
Since Gods are actually situated on the side of humanity, defined by the collective faith of mankind (Alaya-Vijnana). Furthermore, just to be clear, the aspatial and atemporal nature of the Throne of Heroes is linked to its nature as transcendent. Because we're literally told it exists in a dimension beyond the material world, and transcends time. Now I figure a response to this would be "it says time and not space-time" or another repetition of "vague". Its almost shocking that anything of a realm explicitly stated to be unreachable to mankind, no matter what, and a realm that requires one to be liberated from material constraints, a realm that contains the soul which is explicitly beyond laws of the physical world as a record of a substance within the memories of the world in the Inner Sea, doesn't have space-time?? Wow, very shocking, almost as if these descriptions are not intertwined.
Shocker, it's described as "transcend time", and space-time are considered to be a pair that comes together. So naturally, it transcends space as well.
Since Gods are actually situated on the side of humanity, defined by the collective faith of mankind (Alaya-Vijnana). Furthermore, just to be clear, the aspatial and atemporal nature of the Throne of Heroes is linked to its nature as transcendent. Because we're literally told it exists in a dimension beyond the material world, and transcends time. Now I figure a response to this would be "it says time and not space-time" or another repetition of "vague". Its almost shocking that anything of a realm explicitly stated to be unreachable to mankind, no matter what, and a realm that requires one to be liberated from material constraints, a realm that contains the soul which is explicitly beyond laws of the physical world as a record of a substance within the memories of the world in the Inner Sea, doesn't have space-time?? Wow, very shocking, almost as if these descriptions are not intertwined.
Shocker, it's described as "transcend time", and space-time are considered to be a pair that comes together. So naturally, it transcends space as well.
"Aldo", you disagree with what exactly?
The in game mats that say they are a higher-dimensional existence, that you unshockingly glossed over? Or the actual character dialogue that has Goetia tell you, "Hey I am a higher-dimensional and require no flesh and blood anymore".
Or is it the descriptions in the Fate/Grand Order mats? Or perhaps the animation mats of the Temple of Time, where you're told they are higher dimensional again? Which scans are we unshockingly glossing over now?
Observe.
Not a single soul said this, mind you. Were you reading Part 4 of the thread with your innate higher psychic channels that deal in precognition, which they speak of in KnK, per chance?
This was the argument. An explicit higher-dimensional statement, which is not even part of the proposal. All of this was already Tier 1; the proposal was to DOWNGRADE the physical stats of Goetia's avatar from Tier 1.
See what I'm talking about. This is why I said observe.
Yo, is anybody unironically seeing this?
Nobody was making that inference because you don't need to; all you have to do is literally click on the link, and it gives you a scan that says the INS is a higher-dimensional realm. Not a single soul argued it was outside of space-time, implying higher dimensional existence, because there's a separate scan that explicitly calls it higher dimensional.
Linked in this section, the very FIRST few sections. What are we even doing, man
Here, if this is unironically how the thread will go, then to prevent it from being clogged, I'll abstain from responding to any other response like this. Because I'm starting to think this is actually intentional now, I've had to give 10+ examples of scans either being glossed over, taken out of context by people who clearly don't even read about the verse but speak confidently about it, or isolation of context to purport an oversimplified interpretation of a text and the glossing over of prevalent intertextuality.
Don't even get me started on the scepticism, where one continues to shift the target of the burden to something else. By continuing to formulate arguments of the same format, "Well, it is not necessarily the case, because it is possible that it means this. It can mean that, it can be y".
All in good fun, and I don't mind that, only if you're ready to just cash in your own in-depth account for those possibilities. Otherwise, this won't be productive if you keep proposing possibilities in a reductive manner.
Do take note that repeating "these are metaphors" is also one of the most counterproductive ways to engage with any work of literature. Let alone a vast franchise that has run for this long, and intentionally uses poetic and abstract verbiage. I mean, did you know that every single positive description of the Root was a metaphor? Did that stop people from evaluating the thread or agreeing with it?
Its poor style of critiquing, because all it does is reveal your inability to engage with literature critically, really. Because if you're gonna claim something is a metaphor, that's one thing, but using the term "metaphor" to be synonymous with "what I think is the interpretation of this statement" is another thing. Especially when you clearly can't even elucidate for more than 3 sentences, how you derived a given statement within some work of literature is metaphorical. Especially when the conclusion of it being metaphorical is reductive, something as lazy as "these are metaphorical and mean nothing in power scaling terms".
It's just dressing your inability to express anything substantive about the statement, in pseudo-literary depth and a formal tone that does not match the contents of what you're actually saying. And lastly (this is for you telomera), it'll be better for the progression of the threat if you didn't cite anything you didn't read about philosophy. It clogs the thread; I don't want to have to be correcting misinformed opinions on philosophy in addition to this. So let's just try to stick to what we know. I think letting you speak on the verse is an honour enough for somebody who didn't read it.
Cmon now.
So basically what Telomera is saying
Is what I said, except he disagrees with the conclusion because he pretends he didn't see the rest of the explanation after that; or maybe properly speaking, he just recited what I said and disagreed with my conclusion without any reason.
@Reiner04 My primary response to the post above, and examples like such, is why I believe it's probably for the best for the thread to be staff CRT going forward. I don't think it's worth clogging the thread by random people who obviously haven't touched Nasuverse but pretend to contend against it for the hell of it, for whatever reason it may be.
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Funny how this is the second immense block of text made to refute what is being proposed in the thread, but the strategy is the same as before: take a specific scan, ignore all context and all other 5-10 scans on this particular topic, and propose that there is some anti-feat/inconsistency with the OP's arguments.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
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- #157
@Apotheosis69 @ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn and the few others who wanted the thread to be spoilered in bits, it's done. Thank you, guys, for the suggestion, and if possible, can someone point out the few broken links of images to me? I'll fix them up in a jiffy.
The guy got banned because he wasn't supposed to be on the site to begin with, not because he disagreed with us. Conflating the two to bring up the legitimacy of the thread has nothing to do with it, really, and nor do I really care. People are free to think of what they want to again.
Honestly, offhand remarks like this one below, even if they meant it in a well-meaning manner "with all respect", don't see how anyway; put more doubt on the thread's "legitimacy", way more damage to 'perception of people' than one opposition dude's ban, who wasn't supposed to be here in the first place ever could. If we're worried about optics, maybe let's start there.
I never bothered pointing this out before because it wasn't necessary nor did I really care, but now that people are pushing this narrative that we Type Moon fans got AgonistDisorder; accusing him of being a sockpuppet Wankbreaker, etc. banned just for opposing the thread in possibly bad faith in offsite, my message walls or implications of it throughout the thread, though some of them do mean it in a good manner, I have to set the record straight. We knew it was Marshadow from the jump; most of us weren't calling him Marshadow for jokes.
Due to being shown this blatant evidence, you can see the date as to when he says that, it's before he made the responses in the thread. We were going to report it to HR immediately anyway, after we were done engaging with him for 2-3 responses, but he got banned before that. Though, should've reported him from the get-go instead of trying to be "fair" ngl.
The fact he even could give his idea of "counterarguments" here is a testament to the opposite, most of us let him speak his idea of "counterarguments" instead of aiming for the "You're Marshadow, go get banned, you cannot speak!" from the get go and I/Elesia responded to his arguments in good faith, which he didn't really keep up with, engaging with someone who obviously wasn't supposed to be on this site, is the complete opposite of the narrative in relation to the thread's 'negative legitimacy'.
Figured I'd put this here since anyone passing through will probably see it, and if they had any doubts about the thread's legitimacy, if something like that even would come to pass, this should clear things up. If they don't, nothing I can do.
As for the remaining of Marshadow's responses, I'll probably make a short post later today and call it a day.
Passerbys can think what they want, that's their right, and it's frankly not our problem if they don't really have anything to do with Type Moon VSBW or the moderation team. If someone has an actual issue with the thread, they're free to say why, and if their reasoning has holes, it'll get picked apart. If they don't understand something, they can simply ask. That's how debate works, simple as that.
The guy got banned because he wasn't supposed to be on the site to begin with, not because he disagreed with us. Conflating the two to bring up the legitimacy of the thread has nothing to do with it, really, and nor do I really care. People are free to think of what they want to again.
Honestly, offhand remarks like this one below, even if they meant it in a well-meaning manner "with all respect", don't see how anyway; put more doubt on the thread's "legitimacy", way more damage to 'perception of people' than one opposition dude's ban, who wasn't supposed to be here in the first place ever could. If we're worried about optics, maybe let's start there.
I never bothered pointing this out before because it wasn't necessary nor did I really care, but now that people are pushing this narrative that we Type Moon fans got AgonistDisorder; accusing him of being a sockpuppet Wankbreaker, etc. banned just for opposing the thread in possibly bad faith in offsite, my message walls or implications of it throughout the thread, though some of them do mean it in a good manner, I have to set the record straight. We knew it was Marshadow from the jump; most of us weren't calling him Marshadow for jokes.
Due to being shown this blatant evidence, you can see the date as to when he says that, it's before he made the responses in the thread. We were going to report it to HR immediately anyway, after we were done engaging with him for 2-3 responses, but he got banned before that. Though, should've reported him from the get-go instead of trying to be "fair" ngl.
The fact he even could give his idea of "counterarguments" here is a testament to the opposite, most of us let him speak his idea of "counterarguments" instead of aiming for the "You're Marshadow, go get banned, you cannot speak!" from the get go and I/Elesia responded to his arguments in good faith, which he didn't really keep up with, engaging with someone who obviously wasn't supposed to be on this site, is the complete opposite of the narrative in relation to the thread's 'negative legitimacy'.
Figured I'd put this here since anyone passing through will probably see it, and if they had any doubts about the thread's legitimacy, if something like that even would come to pass, this should clear things up. If they don't, nothing I can do.
As for the remaining of Marshadow's responses, I'll probably make a short post later today and call it a day.
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do we have any staff votes?
ApostolUmbrei
He/Him- 34
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I am sure we don't
Mbpoops
He/Him- 8,361
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Nothing ever happens… prolly needs a staff thread atp but thats up to shin. Probably shouldnt derail
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