Gotenks Profile Revision

I believe that the profile justifications for Gotenks need to be changed and that the scaling for some of the Buu characters needs to change. Currently, the way the Dragon Ball profiles are listed or how the powerscaling works is that base Gotenks is superior to SS2 Vegeta, and that's specifically what is stated on Gotenks' profile. However, there are many reasons why this is illogical.

Though Krillin and Gotenks believed base Gotenks would be enough to stop Innocent Buu, their words should be taken with a grain of salt. First of all, Buu's energy has been stated by Toriyama to be very odd and difficult to read, which makes it hard to tell how strong he really is. Secondly, Piccolo believed base Gotenks wasn't strong enough to beat Innocent Buu and tried to stop him from leaving. If we're taking Krillin or Piccolo's word, I think Piccolo is the more reliable source. Unlike Krillin, Piccolo has been shown several times to be capable of reading when something's going wrong with a fight or if someone isn't powerful enough. He could tell that Vegeta still wasn't strong enough to defeat final form Frieza after his Zenkai even though Krillin believed Vegeta was putting Frieza on the ropes. He could sense that something was wrong with Goku when he was fighting Android 19 and that his technique was sloppy, while Krillin believed Goku was mopping the floor with Android 19. And he could tell Vegeta was being pushed back against Android 18 while none of the other Z Fighters who were present could tell Vegeta was losing the advantage. As for Gotenks, he's just an arrogant brat who thought his fusion made him unstoppable, and he's never had any real combat experience, so his words really don't mean anything either. Because of that, the justification for base Gotenks on his profile should be removed.

Just because base Gotenks managed to survive a beatdown from Innocent Buu does not imply at all that he's somehow stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, either. The manga skipped that fight entirely (which is kinda weird), but the anime showed Gotenks getting clobbered easily once Buu got slightly more serious. If anything, the anime showed that Innocent Buu took base Gotenks even less seriously than Majin Vegeta, and it took far less time for Innocent Buu to defeat base Gotenks than it did Majin Vegeta. With Majin Vegeta, Innocent Buu channeled his energy for a large-scale attack which Majin Vegeta still managed to endure. Innocent Buu didn't put nearly as much effort into a charged attack against base Gotenks. Regardless, that battle happened in the anime, not the manga, and we can't use an off-screen battle as justification for base Gotenks somehow being superior to SSJ2 Vegeta when we have no idea how much more effort Buu put than he did against SSJ2 Vegeta.

The same goes for the Super Saiyan justification part. I read the manga, but no character ever said that Super Saiyan Gotenks was stronger than Innocent Buu. That justification is being taken from the anime narrator, but Gotenks' profile should be manga exclusive, and usually the narrator just served to hype things up anyway. The only proof we have of this is Gotenks saying he could beat Innocent Buu, but Gotenks is still an arrogant kid with an unbelievably inflated ego, so there's not enough evidence to say his power truly surpassed Innocent Buu prior to the extra training.

The justification for base Gotenks post-ROSAT training being strong enough to fight Super Buu is stupid as well. Though Piccolo did indeed consider that base Gotenks could be strong enough to beat Super Buu without transforming, base Gotenks is utterly incapable of landing any effective blows or damaging Super Buu whatsoever, and Piccolo internally notes that maybe Gotenks doesn't stand a chance after all. So for people who think that base Gotenks is somehow stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta or SSJ3 Goku based on one or two statements which are instantly refuted later, I think it's kinda ridiculous. I'm honestly baffled that justification was added. All the other stuff is fine, but the scaling for some of the Buu saga characters really is crazy.

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CiscoTheSoto said:

I believe that the profile justifications for Gotenks need to be changed and that the scaling for some of the Buu characters needs to change. Currently, the way the Dragon Ball profiles are listed or how the powerscaling works is that base Gotenks is superior to SS2 Vegeta, and that's specifically what is stated on Gotenks' profile. However, there are many reasons why this is illogical.

Though Krillin and Gotenks believed base Gotenks would be enough to stop Innocent Buu, their words should be taken with a grain of salt. First of all, Buu's energy has been stated by Toriyama to be very odd and difficult to read, which makes it hard to tell how strong he really is. Secondly, Piccolo believed base Gotenks wasn't strong enough to beat Innocent Buu and tried to stop him from leaving. If we're taking Krillin or Piccolo's word, I think Piccolo is the more reliable source. Unlike Krillin, Piccolo has been shown several times to be capable of reading when something's going wrong with a fight or if someone isn't powerful enough. He could tell that Vegeta still wasn't strong enough to defeat final form Frieza after his Zenkai even though Krillin believed Vegeta was putting Frieza on the ropes. He could sense that something was wrong with Goku when he was fighting Android 19 and that his technique was sloppy, while Krillin believed Goku was mopping the floor with Android 19. And he could tell Vegeta was being pushed back against Android 18 while none of the other Z Fighters who were present could tell Vegeta was losing the advantage. As for Gotenks, he's just an arrogant brat who thought his fusion made him unstoppable, and he's never had any real combat experience, so his words really don't mean anything either. Because of that, the justification for base Gotenks on his profile should be removed.

Just because base Gotenks managed to survive a beatdown from Innocent Buu does not imply at all that he's somehow stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, either. The manga skipped that fight entirely (which is kinda weird), but the anime showed Gotenks getting clobbered easily once Buu got slightly more serious. If anything, the anime showed that Innocent Buu took base Gotenks even less seriously than Majin Vegeta, and it took far less time for Innocent Buu to defeat base Gotenks than it did Majin Vegeta. With Majin Vegeta, Innocent Buu channeled his energy for a large-scale attack which Majin Vegeta still managed to endure. Still, Innocent Buu didn't put nearly as much effort into a charged attack against base Gotenks. Regardless, that battle happened in the anime, not the manga, and we can't use an off-screen battle as justification for base Gotenks somehow being superior to SSJ2 Vegeta when we have no idea how much more effort Buu put than he did against SSJ2 Vegeta.

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Neutral.

CiscoTheSoto said:

The same goes for the Super Saiyan justification part. I read the manga, but no character ever said that Super Saiyan Gotenks was stronger than Innocent Buu. That justification is being taken from the anime narrator, but Gotenks' profile should be manga exclusive, and usually the narrator just served to hype things up anyway. The only proof we have of this is Gotenks saying he could beat Innocent Buu, but Gotenks is still an arrogant kid with an unbelievably inflated ego, so there's not enough evidence to say his power truly surpassed Innocent Buu prior to the extra training.

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I haven't read the manga so I'll take your word for it.

CiscoTheSoto said:

The justification for base Gotenks post-ROSAT training being strong enough to fight Super Buu is stupid as well. Though Piccolo did indeed consider that base Gotenks could be strong enough to beat Super Buu without transforming, base Gotenks is utterly incapable of landing any effective blows or damaging Super Buu whatsoever, and Piccolo internally notes that maybe Gotenks doesn't stand a chance after all. So for people who think that base Gotenks is somehow stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta or SSJ3 Goku based on one or two statements which are instantly refuted later, I think it's kinda ridiculous. I'm honestly baffled that justification was added. All the other stuff is fine, but the scaling for some of the Buu saga characters really is crazy.

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Well it's moreso that Piccolo thought his post-RoSaT base stood a much better chance than his pre-RoSaT SSJ form.

The SSJ Gotenks being stronger than SSJ3 Goku could potentially upgrade Innocent and Evil Toei Buu to 3-C

Adem_Warlock69 said:

The SSJ Gotenks being stronger than SSJ3 Goku could potentially upgrade Innocent and Evil Toei Buu to 3-C

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These justifications are for the manga, not Toei.

Also, where was it ever said that SSJ Pre-RoSaT Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku?

Eseseso said:

Neutral.

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Why? Are any of the statements I made incorrect?

Eseseso said:

Well it's moreso that Piccolo thought his post-RoSaT base stood a much better chance than his pre-RoSaT SSJ form.

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Yea and then he was immediately proven wrong, so the justification is baseless. The justification should just be “should be stronger than before”

Pretty sure Post-RoSaT Gotenks surpassed Vegeta according to the Daizenshuu

Adem_Warlock69 said:

Pretty sure Post-RoSaT Gotenks surpassed Vegeta according to the Daizenshuu

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First of all, Daizenshuu refers to the anime. Secondly, that doesn't specify whether or not base Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others in the Buu Saga, just that Gotenks surpassed them. I'm not trying to argue that SSJ Gotenks isn't stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, since he put up a much better fight against a stronger Buu than SSJ2 Vegeta did, I'm just arguing that pre-training base Gotenks isn't stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta and the arguments for it are extremely faulty and illogical.

The line is as follows

Gotenks

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A character formed by Goten and Trunks merging through Fusion
History: In order to defeat Majin Buu, who boasted absolute strength, Goku taught Fusion to Goten and Trunks as a last resort, and thus Gotenks was born. After several failures, they finally succeeded in merging together. The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

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This passage said Gotenks leveled up to surpass Vegeta and "the others" but it doesn't define what that means.

In other words the passage could just mean that Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta just as much as it could mean Base Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta.

It doesn't clarify and both options can be correct.

If Base Post-RoSaT isn't even above Vegeta, then that would severely downgrade the Buu Saga God Tiers' AP

CiscoTheSoto said:

First of all, Daizenshuu refers to the anime.

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The Daizenshuu covers both, but importantly it has anime exclusive sections. Meaning that it does separate material when they differ. So the Base passage should refer to both the manga and anime.

Qawsedf234 said:

The line is as follows


This passage said Gotenks leveled up to surpass Vegeta and "the others" but it doesn't define what that means.

In other words the passage could just mean that Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta just as much as it could mean Base Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta.

It doesn't clarify and both options can be correct.

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That doesn't mean anything. All this says is that after training, Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others. It makes absolutely no reference to whether it was base Gotenks that surpassed the rest of the characters, and the way the passage was written, it's heavily implying that SSJ3 Gotenks surpassed all of the characters since it references the entire fight between Gotenks and Super Buu, not just their battle in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

Since it's ambiguous, it's better to use the actual evidence provided to support those statements that base Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. But as I said, the only evidence that's being used to state base Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta are inaccurate statements made by a cocky brat and a fighter who'd stopped training for seven years and had only just started training again ten days prior. In contrast, Piccolo, who'd kept up his training and has consistently shown to be capable of figuring things out that Krillin couldn't, thought base Gotenks didn't stand a chance. And he was right. In the manga, the entire fight was off-screen as well, so we have no idea how well base Gotenks fared against Buu.

And AGAIN, base Gotenks after training could not even budge Super Buu, whereas SSJ2 Vegeta could still stagger Fat Buu. Even though Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu, the gap shouldn't be that large. In addition, Piccolo immediately retracted the statement that had him believing base Gotenks could defeat Super Buu. He was just impressed by how much more accurate their fusion technique had become and how in sync they'd become, so that's why he jumped to conclusions very quickly. So I think I've provided enough evidence to disprove the idea that base Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta.

Even the main evidence that's being used, neither Krillin or Gotenks explicitly referred to base Gotenks or SSJ Gotenks. Though the anime showed base Gotenks fighting Buu, the manga never confirmed this. So even that evidence is shaky at best, and those extremely vague and inaccurate statements are being used to justify an entire scaling chain? It's baffling.

I agree

CiscoTheSoto said:

Even though Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu, the gap shouldn't be that large.

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I disagree. Goku for sure thinks he'd be demolished by Super Buu even with SS3 and Gotenks did pretty well when he entered that form.

But overall I agree. I can get behind base Gotenks > base Vegeta but base Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta just has to much working against it.

Qawsedf234 said:

I disagree. Goku for sure thinks he'd be demolished by Super Buu even with SS3 and Gotenks did pretty well when he entered that form.

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Super Buu was toying with SSJ Gotenks for the majority of the fight, so I wouldn't say he did pretty well

Qawsedf234 said:

I disagree. Goku for sure thinks he'd be demolished by Super Buu even with SS3 and Gotenks did pretty well when he entered that form.

But overall I agree. I can get behind base Gotenks > base Vegeta but base Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta just has to much working against it.

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I'm glad that you at least agree with the bulk of my content revision. I'm fine with base Gotenks being stronger than base Vegeta, but that's as far as I'd be willing to go based on all the evidence provided in the manga.

Piccolo actually believed that base post rosat Gotenks could stand a chance, despite giving a pre rosat ssj Gotenks absolutely none

Which means base post rosat Gotenks surpassed pre rosat ssj Gotenks, even though he was still weaker than cell, piccolo is an adept ki sensor, he can tell the difference between the two Gotenks

Jaakor48 said:

Piccolo actually believed that base post rosat Gotenks could stand a chance, despite giving a pre rosat ssj Gotenks absolutely none

Which means base post rosat Gotenks surpassed pre rosat ssj Gotenks, even though he was still weaker than cell, piccolo is an adept ki sensor, he can tell the difference between the two Gotenks

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Yea, and then he immediately realized that base post-training Gotenks didn't stand a chance after all. I already said that it looked as though Piccolo was more impressed with their fusion technique's accuracy than their power. Besides, Buu's power has also been stated to be very difficult to read and almost like a lie, so it's hard to determine how accurate those kinds of statements about how powerful characters could be compared to Buu are, especially when the statement in question was immediately disproven.

CiscoTheSoto said:

Yea, and then he immediately realized that base post-training Gotenks didn't stand a chance after all. I already said that it looked as though Piccolo was more impressed with their fusion technique's accuracy than their power. Besides, Buu's power has also been stated to be very difficult to read and almost like a lie, so it's hard to determine how accurate those kinds of statements about how powerful characters could be compared to Buu are, especially when the statement in question was immediately disproven.

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Him not standing a chance against Buu has zero relation with the comparison of his own power levels before and after training

The fact that piccolo gave a better chance of base post ROSAT training than ssj pre ROSAT training means post training Gotenks was stronger

If Gotenks was weaker, piccolo would have had zero reason to hope

"Technique accuracy" makes no sense, the boys already accurately fused beforehand, infact he was angry that they fused without going super Saiyan first, and then he sensed them

Piccolo making a direct relation between Gotenks before training and immediately after training is very reliable.

Jaakor48 said:

Him not standing a chance against Buu has zero relation with the comparison of his own power levels before and after training

The fact that piccolo gave a better chance of base post ROSAT training than ssj pre ROSAT training means post training Gotenks was stronger

If Gotenks was weaker, piccolo would have had zero reason to hope

"Technique accuracy" makes no sense, the boys already accurately fused beforehand, infact he was angry that they fused without going super Saiyan first, and then he sensed them

Piccolo making a direct relation between Gotenks before training and immediately after training is very reliable.

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Again, when it comes to Buu, actual feats are more reliable than statements since his energy is odd and unpredictable, almost like a lie that makes it hard to tell whether he's going all out. I think Piccolo was more afraid of Super Buu becoming eviler and gaining a body better suited for fighting and less than his actual power. We never saw SSJ pre-training Gotenks fight Super Buu, so we don't know whether he'd indeed be defeated just as easily as base Gotenks post-training was defeated. And honestly, that entire moment was meant to be comedic to demonstrate Gotenks' overconfidence that he could defeat Buu without transforming, given how Piccolo reacted. It wouldn't make sense for Goten and Trunks to advance to being x50 stronger with only two weeks of training when fighters like Goku, Vegeta and Gohan took a year of training to make such advancements in power, even considering that Goten and Trunks achieved the Super Saiyan transformations at such a young age and the nature of fusion as well.

CiscoTheSoto said:

Again, when it comes to Buu, actual feats are more reliable than statements since his energy is odd and unpredictable, almost like a lie that makes it hard to tell whether he's going all out. I think Piccolo was more afraid of Super Buu becoming eviler and gaining a body better suited for fighting and less than his actual power. We never saw SSJ pre-training Gotenks fight Super Buu, so we don't know whether he'd indeed be defeated just as easily as base Gotenks post-training was defeated. And honestly, that entire moment was meant to be comedic to demonstrate Gotenks' overconfidence that he could defeat Buu without transforming, given how Piccolo reacted. It wouldn't make sense for Goten and Trunks to advance to being x50 stronger with only two weeks of training when fighters like Goku, Vegeta and Gohan took a year of training to make such advancements in power, even considering that Goten and Trunks achieved the Super Saiyan transformations at such a young age and the nature of fusion as well.

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Again, Buu himself has nothing to do with the comparison

Piccolo knows pre ROSAT ssj Gotenks power level
Piccolo detected post ROSAT base Gotenks power level

Piccolo gave the latter a better chance

This is as clear cut as it gets
There was nothing comedic about piccolo comparing both Gotenks forms, and the rate if growth of a fusion can't be compared with their individual forms here, Gotenks got ssj3 in mere weeks and even then, saying"it makes no sense" isn't an argument


The only comparison we have of pre and post training Gotenks is piccolo, and it's clear he saw post base Gotenks as the stronger one

Jaakor48 said:

Again, Buu himself has nothing to do with the comparison

Piccolo knows pre ROSAT ssj Gotenks power level
Piccolo detected post ROSAT base Gotenks power level

Piccolo gave the latter a better chance

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Yea, and he was wrong.

Jaakor48 said:

This is as clear cut as it gets
There was nothing comedic about piccolo comparing both Gotenks forms, and the rate if growth of a fusion can't be compared with their individual forms here, Gotenks got ssj3 in mere weeks and even then, saying"it makes no sense" isn't an argument

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The scene clearly was comedic based on Piccolo’s reaction and how he immediately took back his previous statement. Again, absolutely

Jaakor48 said:

The only comparison we have of pre and post training Gotenks is piccolo, and it's clear he saw post base Gotenks as the stronger one

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And he was wrong in accurately measuring his power in that instance, cuz as we saw, base Gotenks stood absolutely no chance, and as the evidence I’ve already provided shows, the comparison to Super Buu isn’t as accurate due to his unique energy.

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Jaakor makes sense to me so far

I agree

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Neutral on everything else, but I agree with removing the bit of justification that Krillin, Yamcha and Gotenks himself thought he could've beat Buu in base. That's always bugged me.

CiscoTheSoto said:

Just because base Gotenks managed to survive a beatdown from Innocent Buu does not imply at all that he's somehow stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, either.

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As the person who added it, this was never the intention.

The gap between Buu and baseline Solar System level is more 88x. So, the conclusion was that Gotenks definitely isn't an entire Super Saiyan multiplier below Buu.

CiscoTheSoto said:

we have no idea how much more effort Buu put than he did against SSJ2 Vegeta.

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Given that Buu immediately used Super Saiyan 2 levels of power against Dabura, he'd definitely still be well into the Solar System level range.

Didn't Buu also toy with Supreme Kai and ended up not killing him? Who's even weaker than Base Vegeta?

It's not really the Vegito or Gogeta kind of toying/holding back. He only hit SK thrice, and would've killed him on Babidi's orders.

Plus, we see in that same fight (as in one or two panels apart) that Buu clobbered Super Saiyan 2 Gohan twice, which (judging by Dabura) takes higher tier SS2 levels of power, without any kind of change in attitude or aura. So it seems more like PIS on SK's part. Supporting this, even his most suppressed levels were still orders of magnitude above SK.

Basically, he wouldn't have held back so significantly as to fall out of 4-B while fighting Gotenks if the battle lasted more than a minute or so.

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