Homelander and The Deep (The Boys TV Show) Additions

Random-Helper323 · Sep 18, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
The actor and director simply don't know that, which is why it's poorly done. The fact that they did this kind of choreography for the fight literally proves that it is an intention of the show to make Homelander, Maeve, Soldier Boy and Butcher skilled fighters. Like in literally all films and series.

None of this proves that Homelander was intended to be a skilled fighter. Your entire argument rests on Butcher being a soldier and Maeve being skilled, and visual evidence from fight scenes where Homelander fights like a five-year old. In short, only Butcher being a soldier (which still doesn't qualify for martial arts on its own), and Maeve being skilled holds any value at all. And Maeve almost beat Homelander despite an AP gap. None of this makes Homelander a skilled fighter, and your constant references to the intent of the writers and directors is seemingly your own headcanon.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Which doesn't mean anything. Lots of characters in fiction can be tricked or affected by attacks that people irl can counter. And if Butcher is more of a boxer in his fighting style, he is not necessarily supposed to know how to counter a technique done with a leg

Not on its own, but you're attempting to say Homelander has martial arts based on these very fight scenes which show him fighting like an angry drunk.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Butcher was a soldier

Not all soldiers are taught martial arts. If he was marines or special forces, that would be different.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Most fight choreography in films can't be done in real fights, because it's too clean, it's not messy. If directors take the trouble to choreograph the fights, whether the blows are well executed or not, it is to show that their characters are skilled fighters. It's that simple

A fight scene being scripted and choreographed doesn't automatically mean the characters are good fighters.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
"notable."
Soldier boy is described as almost as strong as Homelander, and this is also the case for Butcher and Maeve post-training.

How much difference is in an almost? Enough to decisively win with sheer strength and flight power alone? Remember that Homelander was always in a league all his own in his verse, to the point where being hit by him and not splattering was an extreme rarity.

Honestly, this is simple. For Homelander to have martial arts, you need either a statement that he has such skills (there isn't one, and you've assumed the writers' intent instead), a scene where he visibly uses those skills (moves that belong in kindergarten don't qualify, no matter how much they're choreographed and scripted), or viable proof of facing enemies who had martial arts themselves (meaning they themselves satisfy the above criteria) and could not be beaten without matching their skill, i.e, with superior speed or power, or other advantages which could overcome that skill advantage.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 18, 2023

Random-Helper323 said:
and visual evidence from fight scenes where Homelander fights like a five-year old.

And then you say I'm doing headcanon...

Random-Helper323 said:
None of this makes Homelander a skilled fighter, and your constant references to the intent of the writers and directors is seemingly your own headcanon.

No. There is no reason for a director to do fight choreography (twice) to a character who has no skills, it just doesn't make sense.

Random-Helper323 said:
And Maeve almost beat Homelander despite an AP gap

Homelander literally managed to stand up to her temporarily in terms of skills, as I have already shown

Random-Helper323 said:
Not all soldiers are taught martial arts. If he was marines or special forces, that would be different.

He was in the SAS, aka the Special Air Force, a special forces unit of the British Army.

Random-Helper323 said:
A fight scene being scripted and choreographed doesn't automatically mean the characters are good fighters.

Yes, that automatically means that the characters are good fighters.

Random-Helper323 said:
How much difference is in an almost?

Enough to bruise him and make him bleed.

Random-Helper323 said:
a scene where he visibly uses those skills (moves that belong in kindergarten don't qualify, no matter how much they're choreographed and scripted)

Choreographed fights are more than enough proof, that's why the director bothers to make them, to show the talent of their characters

Random-Helper323 said:
or viable proof of facing enemies who had martial arts themselves (meaning they themselves satisfy the above criteria)

Soldier boy, Queen Maeve, Billy Butcher

Random-Helper323 said:
and could not be beaten without matching their skill, i.e, with superior speed or power, or other advantages which could overcome that skill advantage.

The only advantage Homelander has over the three characters mentioned above is strength, and the difference isn't huge.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 18, 2023

Suigetsuhyugs said:
giving vehicle mastery over having a driver licence was ridiculous

I totally agree with that, but it doesn't apply to Homelander.
Blocking two punches as easily and precisely as Homelander did against Maeve is not something the average person can do without training in a fight.

Random-Helper323 · Sep 19, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
And then you say I'm doing headcanon...

It's not a headcanon to look at a clumsy haymaker and recognise that that's what it is.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
No. There is no reason for a director to do fight choreography (twice) to a character who has no skills, it just doesn't make sense.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Yes, that automatically means that the characters are good fighters.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Choreographed fights are more than enough proof, that's why the director bothers to make them, to show the talent of their characters

It literally only means the fight is scripted. Why does a fight scene being scripted and planned prove a high level of fighting skill?

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Homelander literally managed to stand up to her temporarily in terms of skills, as I have already shown

He was shown attempting to crush her with his superior strength. Only moment of skill clashing was blocking a punch that was yet another clumsy haymaker; at that angle the punch was begging to be blocked.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
He was in the SAS, aka the Special Air Force, a special forces unit of the British Army.

I should probably clarify, that I meant special forces in the sense of fighting directly. The air force tend to be pilots and gunners rather than direct fighters.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Enough to bruise him and make him bleed.

Still hard to say how close that is, to be honest. Especially when he was able to match three of them at once with strength. Only the bruises, which were inflicted by Butcher, Soldier Boy and Huey, indicate directly comparable power.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Soldier boy, Queen Maeve, Billy Butcher

You have yet to prove martial arts for Butcher or Soldier Boy. Neither of them has shown the moves or has any statement to prove it. Even Maeve's moves didn't show much special skill, and other than that all we have with her is established training history. And conveniently, she also happens to be the one we know, by her own admissions, is a fair bit weaker than Homelander.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
The only advantage Homelander has over the three characters mentioned above is strength, and the difference isn't huge.

Only Maeve satisfies martial arts criteria, and only barely, and all we have with her is that her hardest hit to his nose managed to make it bleed. Not break it, just a small nosebleed. That actually also proves Homelander had a power advantage. What's more, his flight, X-ray vision and heat vision give him some advantages too.

Look, I think both of us are sick of this, but honestly, you're attempting to give Homelander martial arts for blocking one punch from a character we know is less powerful than him, for being shown throwing visibly unskilled punches, for fighting an air force guy and a guy whose skills are unknown, neither of whom has displayed martial art skill of their own, and now you're literally trying to say that any character who has a scripted fight scene qualifies for high skill and martial arts.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 19, 2023

Random-Helper323 said:
and now you're literally trying to say that any character who has a scripted fight scene qualifies for high skill and martial arts.

who has a choregraphed fight scene*
but in any case if we don't agree on that there's no point in continuing the debate, it's better to wait for other opinions

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 19, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Homelander should also get Rage Power via this

Bump

Kisaragi_Megumi · Sep 19, 2023

Yeah, disagree on the resistance and martial arts thing based on what has been debated here, rest i'm inclined to agree

Random-Helper323 · Sep 19, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
who has a choregraphed fight scene*
but in any case if we don't agree on that there's no point in continuing the debate, it's better to wait for other opinions

Here is the Wikipedia page on Choreography.

It is literally the name of the process for scripting and planning out scenes and the movements therein. Not a single thing in the process or the word meaning has anything to do with character skill in and of itself. It can demonstrate skill via actually showing it in the fight scene, but it doesn't have anything to do with character skill outside of what the resulting scene shows.

With that in mind, will you please stop playing word games in an attempt to pretend the word means something outside of its definition and even the process it describes?

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 19, 2023

Random-Helper323 said:
Only Maeve satisfies martial arts criteria, and only barely

~~You should make a thread to remove Martial Arts from Butcher and Soldier Boy profiles tho~~

Random-Helper323 said:
With that in mind, will you please stop playing word games in an attempt to pretend the word means something outside of its definition and even the process it describes?

A advanced choreographed fight scene (ex: Homelander's fights) is scripted yes, but a scripted scene is not necessarily a advanced choreographed fight scene

In any case, I think I'm starting to agree with you for the case of Homelander (that it's thanks to his AP and his speed), but not yet for that of Butcher and Soldier Boy.

Random-Helper323 · Sep 19, 2023

Actually, the whole OP is pretty suspect at best.

The resistances are a possibility, but it's hard to know what Soldier Boy and Homelander share. The fact that Ryan has yet to show X-ray vision does set a precedent for not all powers always being inherited. I am inclined to think the poison at least is viable though, since no-one seems to think poisoning Homelander will work even though they all want him dead.

And the self-sustenance is possibly just holding breath. It's really hard to be sure.

Martial arts is baseless. The OP has attempted to argue that the fight scenes visually showed great martial art skill only for the fight scenes to resemble kindergarten fights, has assumed the directors and writers must have intended Homelander to be a skilled martial artist, and is now insisting that the mere presence of choreography and scripted fight scenes (literally the same thing as each other, by the way) always proves the fighters are skilled martial artists. By that logic literally every fight scene ever made in a visual medium (film, TV, theatre, games, etc.) proves those characters have martial arts skill, even the drunken bar brawls in college movies and school yard fights in kid's movies.

For an example, the fourth American Pie, the Reunion, features a clearly scripted fight scene between the five main characters and some punks. This scene includes Finch and Jim being clumsy and hopeless the entire time. But the scene was indeed choreographed. By the logic of the OP, Jim and Finch, clumsy and hopeless the entire time, with Finch in particular fighting as well as the new kid getting the swirlies in the toilets, are both automatically skilled martial artists.

Random-Helper323 · Sep 19, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
~~You should make a thread to remove Martial Arts from Butcher and Soldier Boy profiles tho~~

A advanced choreographed fight scene (ex: Homelander's fights) is scripted yes, but a scripted scene is not necessarily a advanced choreographed fight scene

I realise this makes sense to you, but this is why. In your mind you have constructed a far more advanced perception of the scene than can be conveyed with words. Using the word advanced similarly proves nothing, especially when the moves Homelander displays don't demonstrate any skill.

Now honestly, leaving aside Soldier Boy, Butcher probably does qualify as a capable brawler, but not exactly a martial artist. Many characters get martial arts for no solid reason, and it is a problem on the Wiki.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
In any case, I think I'm starting to agree with you for the case of Homelander (that it's thanks to his AP and his speed), but not yet for that of Butcher and Soldier Boy.

Butcher being an adept brawler is indeed true, but Soldier Boy is much like Homelander; used to being invincible.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 19, 2023

Random-Helper323 said:
The resistances are a possibility, but it's hard to know what Soldier Boy and Homelander share. The fact that Ryan has yet to show X-ray vision does set a precedent for not all powers always being inherited. I am inclined to think the poison at least is viable though, since no-one seems to think poisoning Homelander will work even though they all want him dead.

And the self-sustenance is possibly just holding breath. It's really hard to be sure.

So "Possibly Resistances to..." and "Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control" in the Homelander profile, I don't see the problem

Random-Helper323 said:
proves those characters have martial arts skill, even the drunken bar brawls in college movies and school yard fights in kid's movies.

If these scenes are done in the same way as those of Homelander, Soldier boy, Butcher and Maeve, well yes that's enough for Martial Arts. The latter's fights are not as messy as drunken fights, they are precise and advanced, it's not just a mess

Marvel_Champion_07 · Sep 19, 2023

I agree with the above points that disagree with Martial Arts for Homelander

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 19, 2023

Random-Helper323 said:
especially when the moves Homelander displays don't demonstrate any skill.

For the case of Homelander it is surely just thanks to his comparable speed and superior strength yes, but if it was another character not as strong and fast as him, it would be skill (drunk people or kids in a school don't fight like that lol, I don't know where you saw that)

AThe1412 · Sep 19, 2023

I agree with Maeve and Butcher (And possibly Soldier Boy) having Martial Arts because they are, more or less, trained individuals. Homelander though? Hell no. That would be the equivalent of saying that MCU She-Hulk has Martial Arts... Oh no, don't even think about it!

Suigetsuhyugs · Sep 19, 2023

I dont remember exacly if the serie had that too but in the comics i remember Soldier boy and his "crew" being sent to the army without any trainning which caused them to a huge battle that killed most of them, I think something similar happened in the serie although they didnt actually died

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 19, 2023

Suigetsuhyugs said:
I dont remember exacly if the serie had that too but in the comics i remember Soldier boy and his "crew" being sent to the army without any trainning which caused them to a huge battle that killed most of them, I think something similar happened in the serie although they didnt actually died

They lacked discipline yes

Random-Helper323 · Sep 19, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
So "Possibly Resistances to..." and "Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control" in the Homelander profile, I don't see the problem

Lung capacity is fine. A guy with super durability and high speed flight isn't going to have fragile lungs. If he stayed longer in space that would be self-sustenance.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
If these scenes are done in the same way as those of Homelander, Soldier boy, Butcher and Maeve, well yes that's enough for Martial Arts. The latter's fights are not as messy as drunken fights, they are precise and advanced, it's not just a mess

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
For the case of Homelander it is surely just thanks to his comparable speed and superior strength yes, but if it was another character not as strong and fast as him, it would be skill (drunk people or kids in a school don't fight like that lol, I don't know where you saw that)

Why are we pretending Homelander's moves in the fight demonstrated skill? You have no idea how much of a headache I'm getting here; you're pointing at clumsy haymakers, exactly the type of punches someone throws when they don't know how to punch, and trying to tell me that those punches are highly skilled. In fact, they're exactly the kind of punch that drunks are generally associated with throwing, and exactly the worst punch you can throw. The only moment where Homelander did anything right was blocking Maeve's haymaker, and with his stat advantage that tells us little.

I have done multiple martial arts IRL. My teachers are professional fighters who have competed on a world stage, and I was taught knife fighting by a reformed criminal who was taught to kill by a leader of a South African Zulu gang.

In short, I know what I'm talking about, so it's giving me a headache that could probably register on a Richter scale having you pointing to clumsy as shit haymakers and attempting to tell me that that garbage qualifies as skilled martial arts practice, and having you disregard the issues no matter how many different ways I present them to you. The fact that you keep moving the goalpost back and forth between "choreography always equals martial art skill" and "those fight scenes show real martial art skill" is just the icing on the cake. I realise that in your mind this makes sense, because in truth people think in images and complex information rather than just words, but really, I can tell you with total confidence, Homelander's fight scene displayed a lack of skill, not an abundance of it.

Update: okay, I've vented my headache. Someone like me who takes martial arts seriously being told to believe clumsy haymakers qualify as martial arts is very annoying. I've vented the slow steam build up, we can move on.

Short version: The argument for martial arts hinges on leaping back and forth between assuming the writers intend for Homelander to be skilled, arguing that all choreography that fulfils some unspecified criteria that only the OP knows about automatically proves martial art skill, and arguing that the fight scenes which are filled with only badly unskilled moves visibly demonstrate martial art skill.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 19, 2023

So here is what I propose for the Homelander:

Possibly Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation (Is Soldier Boy's biological son so he may share the same resistances as him)
Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control (Can go to space)
Rage Power (Escaped from Butcher, Soldier Boy and Hughie's grasp after becoming enraged)

And for The Deep:

- Limited Resistance to Cold Manipulation (can go into the Mariana Trench without freezing to death, even though he could feel it)

Thoughts ?

Marvel_Champion_07 · Sep 19, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Possibly Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation (Is Soldier Boy's biological son so he may share the same resistances as him)

I'm still in disagreement unless Homelander has actual Resistance feats

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control (Can go to space)

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
And for The Deep:

- Limited Resistance to Cold Manipulation (can go into the Mariana Trench without freezing to death, even though he could feel it)

Sure

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Rage Power (Escaped from Butcher, Soldier Boy and Hughie's grasp after becoming enraged)

Neutral

Suigetsuhyugs · Sep 19, 2023

I never really understood "Rage power" Wouldnt basically everyone get it since adrenaline increases strenght when its released? I thought that power is more related to superhuman amps beyond anything normal or specifically become more powerful because of anger.
Homelander probably just become slightly stronger because of adrenaline of fear and anger of being hurt.

Random-Helper323 · Sep 20, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
So here is what I propose for the Homelander:

Possibly Resistance to Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Acid Manipulation and Mind Manipulation (Is Soldier Boy's biological son so he may share the same resistances as him)

This could very well be true, but we can't really be sure yet.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control (Can go to space)

There's talk of a space survival ability being added to the Wiki, which might solve this issue.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Rage Power (Escaped from Butcher, Soldier Boy and Hughie's grasp after becoming enraged)

Isn't rage power for characters like Gohan whose rage can grant them large power boosts? Guess that becomes kind of subjective, doesn't it?

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
And for The Deep:

- Limited Resistance to Cold Manipulation (can go into the Mariana Trench without freezing to death, even though he could feel it)

This is fine. Feeling it isn't all that important; it's the fact that he was able to handle it that's key. The pressure in the Mariana Trench probably warrants some consideration too. Only known vertebrate that can dive that deep and come back up without dying is the sperm whale.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 20, 2023

Random-Helper323 said:
Isn't rage power for characters like Gohan whose rage can grant them large power boosts?

Fair

Qawsedf234 · Sep 20, 2023

Rage power is for stuff like Gohan or the Hulk, where rage/anger is a power that actively increases other statistics. Just getting angry wouldn't be enough to qualify, a notable boost is required.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 21, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Possibly Self-Sustenance or Enhanced Lung Capacity/Body Control (Can go to space)

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Limited Resistance to Cold Manipulation (can go into the Mariana Trench without freezing to death, even though he could feel it)

Ok so only this is accepted ?

Random-Helper323 · Sep 21, 2023

The cold resistance is blatant. The space stuff can probably be body control at the moment, possibly self-sustenance with more context, and the space survival ability could come into play later.

Marvel_Champion_07 · Sep 21, 2023

Marvel_Champion_07 said:
I'm still in disagreement unless Homelander has actual Resistance feats

Now that I think about it, Homelander could get Radiation and Heat Resistance since he survived the vacuum of space and shook off Temp-V Butcher's heat vision. But that's pretty much as far as I will agree to, until I can think of other feats

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Ok so only this is accepted ?

So far, yes

Random-Helper323 · Sep 21, 2023

So for Homelander, heat and cosmic radiation resistance, and lung capacity/body control (possibly self-sustenance).

For the Deep, resistance to cold. Any thoughts on the resistance to pressure he would need in the Mariana Trench?

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 21, 2023

Marvel_Champion_07 said:
Homelander could get Radiation and Heat Resistance

Wait, why heat ?

Random-Helper323 said:
Any thoughts on the resistance to pressure he would need in the Mariana Trench?

It's already included in his profile as a durability feat

Marvel_Champion_07 · Sep 21, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Wait, why heat ?

Marvel_Champion_07 said:
shook off Temp-V Butcher's heat vision

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 21, 2023

Resistance to radiation in space is after a prolonged period I guess

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 22, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 22, 2023

Marvel_Champion_07 said:
and shook off Temp-V Butcher's heat vision

We only see Homelander's outfit burning, we don't really know if it affected Homelander's skin or not

Cropfist · Sep 22, 2023

Yeah, disagree with resistances and martial arts (this isn't Dragon Ball...)

Marvel_Champion_07 · Sep 22, 2023

Only Radiation Resistance via surviving in space then

Random-Helper323 · Sep 22, 2023

It seems some staff are working on a space survival page which will likely be relevant to this discussion when it's made.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 23, 2023

Ok so can I apply the additions?

Marvel_Champion_07 · Sep 23, 2023

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Ok so can I apply the additions?

Whatever was accepted, sure

Ser_Hakim_Dayne · Sep 23, 2023

This thread can be closed

Homelander and The Deep (The Boys TV Show) Additions

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