(1 Staff Approved So Far) Madness Combat Verse-Specific Abilities additions/rework

[Employe]

Those feats have been moved to it's logic manipulation

I actually think that Power Nullification should be merged with Logic Manipulation too in our case

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Even if it's a vague statement, resonating differently within reality is a pretty blatant Type 4 Aca statement. Personally considering it's vague, i'd settle with a possibly statement but it ain't up to me and Bambu has already spoken on this and sees it as too vague, so ig i'm unfortunately boned on this one.

Ig a possibly statement is fine given this isn't provably wrong (i think?)

Is not defying life, death, and all things natural still Paraconsistent Physiology?

Paraconsistent Physiology type 2 basically involves existing as a contradiction by nature

Destroying concepts such as order and death is still conceptual manipulation, although Bambu has already mentioned their hesitance on giving Dissonance this ability due to how specific the question was.

This still feels alot like conceptual NPI but i'll ask a question that may or may not change my mind.

Is killing the auditor shown to have adverse effects on life and death?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It was used to invert invulnerability into vulnerability (1:22:28)

Invulnerability isn't a fundamental aspect of logic

 

[Employe]

Invulnerability isn't a fundamental aspect of logic

It was used to invert the defense as a whole into vulnerability to allow it be harmed

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It was used to invert the defense as a whole into vulnerability to allow it be harmed

A person's defense isn't fundemental aspects of logic either

The wiki exclusively defines fundemental aspects of logic as things that serve as the basis for any and all laws, calculation, and relations between phenomena.

 

[Employe]

I mean, but shouldn't concept of invulnerability and defense/durability fall into this? It is a pretty fundamental law. Gestalt is an invulnerable boy but they managed to invert this rule into him being vulnerable

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I mean, but shouldn't concept of invulnerability and defense/durability fall into this? It is a pretty fundamental law. Gestalt is an invulnerable boy but they managed to invert this rule into him being vulnerable

Unless the invulnerability exists as a fundamental law within the verse or serves as the basis for calculations and/or relations between phenomena then no

 

[Employe]

Gestalt being invulnerable/extremely durable it is a logical reasoning which sterms from the fact that Gestalt is a big supersoldier who was specifically projected and constructed to be unharmable with his armor and technologies, it makes sense and is a form of deductive reasoning. However, characters were able to override this logical reasoning by inverting it into vulnerability despite this not making any sense for Gestalt and contradicting to him being an ultra armored and powerful unit (who still retains the same defense and muscular mass as before even after being "inverted").

The entire point of the story is that Gestalt is virtually invincible for anyone until they inverted his defense into vulnerability by dissonant

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Gestalt being invulnerable/extremely durable

Invulnerability isn't reliant on conventional durability

it is a logical reasoning which sterms from the fact that Gestalt is a big supersoldier who was specifically projected and constructed to be unharmable with his armor and technologies, it makes sense and is a form of deductive reasoning.

so basically he's so strong he can no-sell attacks from the other characters?

According to the Invulnerability page, Only characters whose invulnerability is clearly more than simply being exceptionally durable for the verse's setting qualify. So i'm not sure if this even qualifies for invulnerability.

That said assuming it is invulnerability the invulnerability itself has to dictate how logical and deductive reasoning within the verse works. Saying the character being invulnerable makes sense does not prove the invulnerability itself exists as a fundamental law that governs the verse.

However, characters were able to override this logical reasoning by inverting it into vulnerability despite this not making any sense for Gestalt and contradicting to him being an ultra armored and powerful unit (who still retains the same defense and muscular mass as before even after being "inverted").

The entire point of the story is that Gestalt is virtually invincible for anyone until they inverted his defense into vulnerability by dissonant

Unless gestalt himself or the invulnerability itself dictates how logical reasoning works within the verse then this is just durability negation...

 

[Employe]

He is referred to have invulnerability, I believe

 

[Delusionaltx2]

He is referred to have invulnerability, I believe

This dosen't really change the fact that if the invulnerability itself comes from high durability, then by wiki standards this is a disqualifier for the ability

 

[Employe]

This dosen't really change the fact that if the invulnerability itself comes from high durability, then by wiki standards this is a disqualifier for the ability

A conventionally invulnerable, sapient war machine. Through the synthetic synapses in Gestalt's bulletproof head flows the training of hundreds (if not THOUSANDS) of S-3LFs. The significantly larger cranium has been utilized to house the quantum machinery that prevents typical Abomination insanity, but even at a cursory glance this framework is only just holding him together...cognitively speaking

 

[Delusionaltx2]

A conventionally invulnerable, sapient war machine. Through the synthetic synapses in Gestalt's bulletproof head flows the training of hundreds (if not THOUSANDS) of S-3LFs. The significantly larger cranium has been utilized to house the quantum machinery that prevents typical Abomination insanity, but even at a cursory glance this framework is only just holding him together...cognitively speaking

This dosen't really change the fact that if the invulnerability itself comes from high durability, then by wiki standards this is a disqualifier for the ability

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Anyway just to clarify my stance, I agree with dissonance being logic manip but I just don't think we should use Project Gesalt as an example

We should just stick to using this scan and call it a day, since it seems much more blatant for logic manip

 

[Employe]

I'm just afraid that this might be not enough for some people to justify, but sure

By the way, we also have a statement about Employers being creatures of the very fabric logic of itself, which not only additionally sort of aligns with them being referred to as fundamental concepts themselves, but hints that Tricky's dissonant is apparently a reason behind him hjacking The Auditor (plus WoG explicitly tells that shooting dissonant into Employer it is the worst thing anyone could do to them)

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I'm just afraid that this might be not enough for some people to justify, but sure

Based on how the wiki defines logic manip this seems much more blatant

By the way, we also have a statement about Employers being creatures of very fabric logic of itself, which not only additionally sort of aligns with them being referred to as fundamental concepts themselves, but hints that Tricky's dissonant is apparently a reason behind him hjacking The Auditor (plus WoG explicitly tells that shooting dissonant into Employer it is the worst thing anyone could do to them)

I think this might qualify for conceptual corruption

 

[Employe]

So dissonance has some form of conceptual corruption basically?

It has examples of both being a corruptive force (literally how it is referred to as) and destructive

According to The Auditor's own posters, Tricky was seemingly damaging everything "inside him"

 

[CitRusReality64]

Audibly said "what the ** is paraconsistent physiology, what the shit" when I saw this, I didn't know we changed the name again, we do love our pointless ***** jargon, don't we...

I can see why you're arguing for this, though, this is the phrasing of Type 2:


...but this is not what Dissonant Reality does. What it does is flip the switch. "true" becomes "false" and "false" becomes "true". I see that you have Logic Manipulation included later, I think that covers this adequately, and this "paraconsistent physiology" (what a ******* mouthful) isn't strictly accurate in any of its forms.

I remember two scans said that The Machine has a system of logic and code that is algorithmic or something, and all nevadeans are bounded to the machine because of that system. But then Dissonance makes things unbounded by that system

 

[Employe]

Bumping

 

[Employe]

Bump

 

[Employe]

Bump

 

[CitRusReality64]

Should nature of Dissonance have incorporeality ? Since it's just energy
And possibly layered since it would scale to the employers and be above S-3LF

 

[Employe]

This site doesn't give stuff like "incorporeality" to powers/abilties. Non-corporeality only applies to characters who are made out of non-physical material (you can only argue something purely made out of these energies/powers having the abstract existence)

Just energy manipulation probably will be enough (at most)

Why would it scale above Employers and S-3LFs? It can interact with Employers, sure, but that's Concept Manip

 

[Comiphorous]

This site doesn't give stuff like "incorporeality" to powers/abilties. Non-corporeality only applies to characters who are made out of non-physical material (you can only argue something purely made out of these energies/powers having the abstract existence)

Incorporeality

Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Employe]

Incorporeality

Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yes, it only mentions beings who have no physical body. Not energies themselves

 

[Comiphorous]

Yes, it only mentions beings who have no physical body. Not energies themselves

because your usually putting the ability on character's profile (being) instead of an ability's profile.

 

[Employe]

because your usually putting the ability on character's profile (being) instead of an ability's profile.

I'm pretty sure Incorporeality can be only attributed to beings (or just constructs in general) in the case they are solely composed out of this energy instead of the energy itself having this as an ability.

This is what I mean

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah Incorporeality would be the way to go for a being made of energy.

 

[Employe]

Bump

 

[Employe]

Bump

 

[Comiphorous]

Alright i think i updated the OP with everything that was decided on, is there anything i'm missing right now?

 

[Employe]

I probably would have mentioned Electricity Manipulation, since Hank and Jeb can use dissonant in such forms and Gestalt also seemingly summoned dissonant lightings on his fight, but I feel like it is less an innate dissonant property and more of just how its users can shape and apply it

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Was glossing over some stuff and found this feat of pre apothesis hank flipping over a vending machine with enough force to paste a person

Unlike the Jebus feat this is done through a table flip, which can be used to get lifting strength

and we visibly don't see even a part of the guy either too

 

[Employe]

Was glossing over some stuff and found this feat of pre apothesis hank flipping over a vending machine with enough force to paste a person

Unlike the Jebus feat this is done through a table flip, which can be used to get lifting strength

and we visibly don't see even a part of the guy either too

Would it really scale to his own strength and not to a vending machine itself?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Would it really scale to his own strength and not to a vending machine itself?

Dude...your average vending machine is like 800lbs on a good day, thats no where near enough to paste a person

on top of this, if the vending machine was naturally just this heavy then it would have easily cratered the ground just being there.

 

[Employe]

Bump

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I cosign what Mr. Bambu cosigned (which is accounted well in the OP). Gonna need a bit to further consider the Acasuality & Conceptual Manipulation for Dissonance.

Incidentally, wrt the "S-3LFs resisting Dissonance" bullet point, it's worth keeping in mind that The-Other-Place Sanford wasn't instantly nuked when severely attacked by the Auditor multiple times in MC12 even as that nuked others around him. Sanford was in range, too; note the bodies BEHIND him being vaporized by the Auditor around the four-minute mark, as well as the Auditor clearly targeting him as opposed to dissolving that one Soldat the next time. Of course, Sanford probably would have been double-killeded had he been under much further attack. But at least he has considerable resistance; not sure about any others. Although Jedediah & Mag Hank -- while alive, not in "dead" S-3LF form in the Other Place -- also fought the Auditor without immediately dying from zaps.

So to recap, everything Bambu signed off on is good, some characters may have more Dissonance resistance than others, and Acasuality & Conception Manipulation for Dissonance is still up for debate (I'm leaning likely on CM).

 

[Employe]

I cosign what Mr. Bambu cosigned (which is accounted well in the OP). Gonna need a bit to further consider the Acasuality & Conceptual Manipulation for Dissonance.

Incidentally, wrt the "S-3LFs resisting Dissonance" bullet point, it's worth keeping in mind that The-Other-Place Sanford wasn't instantly nuked when severely attacked by the Auditor multiple times in MC12 even as that nuked others around him. Sanford was in range, too; note the bodies BEHIND him being vaporized by the Auditor around the four-minute mark, as well as the Auditor clearly targeting him as opposed to dissolving that one Soldat the next time. Of course, Sanford probably would have been double-killeded had he been under much further attack. But at least he has considerable resistance; not sure about any others. Although Jedediah & Mag Hank -- while alive, not in "dead" S-3LF form in the Other Place -- also fought the Auditor without immediately dying from zaps.

So to recap, everything Bambu signed off on is good, some characters may have more Dissonance resistance than others, and Acasuality & Conception Manipulation for Dissonance is still up for debate (I'm leaning likely on CM).

Hello, glad to see you after so much time! Mind you epxressing your opinion on another Madness thread which further elaborates on why CM 1 (among many other haxes) make sense for Dissonant and Madness series in general?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Hello, glad to see you after so much time! Mind you epxressing your opinion on another Madness thread which further elaborates on why CM 1 (among many other haxes) make sense for Dissonant and Madness series in general?

Sure, I got a bit of free time for this atm. And yeah, link that to me & I'll take a look.